Got welfare checked, scored 20/20 on the suicide risk assessment, and they let me go home

[Rhizomorph1]

So months ago I ordered SN from some random vendor I found in China. It never showed so I ordered from a vendor in Ukraine which showed up with no issue. It's now hidden somewhere very secure.

Fast forward to a few weeks back and my SN from china shows up (huh? Okay cool, I guess I have extra...)

The morning after I wake up to a cop in my bedroom (my mom let him in) and he confiscates the SN from china and asks if I consent to visit a doctor. Not wanting to cause a fuss, and having already visited the hospital prior with my family (who knows everything), I agree.

I show up, the doctors and nurses ask me a bunch of questions but are clearly thinking along the lines of "didn't we already cover this in your last visit?"

They did a suicide risk assessment which I scored the highest risk possible, but since I assured them I have no plan to ctb soon or without talking to them, they didn't do a mental health form

(for my family's sake I will let them detain me until they can't afford to hold me anymore before ctbing so my family feels secure that they "did everything they could", etc.)

I have lunch with my mom at her favourite restaurant and continue my day as normal

 

[Helween]

Bruh.. at least you got to keep Sn and your freedom.

 

[Rhizomorph1]

Bruh.. at least you got to keep Sn and your freedom.

I mean practically speaking, theres nothing they can do legally to ensure I don't have access to SN, and without confiding immediate plan/intent, they cannot legally detain me.

I'm pretty compliant with them; the only thing I say no to is telling them where I hid the SN.

I'm just playing my cards right. It feels way better just being transparent about it all

Milage will vary for others' situations ofc. But I encourage disclosing to others if possible.

 

[Jorms_McGander]

Seems like a good assessment as far as they are able to give you one. I hope you enjoy the rest of your day

 

[Rhizomorph1]

Seems like a good assessment as far as they are able to give you one. I hope you enjoy the rest of your day

Looking at the research done on these risk assessments, they have extremely poor predictability of whether or not a person actually follows through with a suicide attempt.

I think the nurse was just passing time/trying to be helpful while the doctors talked.

 

[Jorms_McGander]

Looking at the research done on these risk assessments, they have extremely poor predictability of whether or not a person actually follows through with a suicide attempt.

I think the nurse was just passing time/trying to be helpful while the doctors talked.

This is said in the interest of a nonjudgemental and open conversation but patient honesty is a prerequisite and confounding factor for these assessments. My commentary suggests that since you weren't fully honest they weren't fully able to assess.

I'm not a therapist. I have no opinion on whether or not you CTB as an individual. On principle I support your right to self-determination with no further information required.

But y'know. There's some reasons why the things you're suggesting are true, they are obstacles to treatment if a person is considering the efficacy of treatments on an epidemiological scale, and it's not exactly that the questionnaires are ineffective by themselves.

It's fun for me to discuss stuff on the dark side of life, that's all I'm doing here. I don't want you committed I'm just saying if you were completely honest you wouldn't be posting claiming that healthcare is ineffective... You have made that situation

 

[Rhizomorph1]

This is said in the interest of a nonjudgemental and open conversation but patient honesty is a prerequisite and confounding factor for these assessments. My commentary suggests that since you weren't fully honest they weren't fully able to assess.

I'm not a therapist. I have no opinion on whether or not you CTB as an individual. On principle I support your right to self-determination with no further information required.

But y'know. There's some reasons why the things you're suggesting are true, they are obstacles to treatment if a person is considering the efficacy of treatments on an epidemiological scale, and it's not exactly that the questionnaires are ineffective by themselves.

It's fun for me to discuss stuff on the dark side of life, that's all I'm doing here. I don't want you committed I'm just saying if you were completely honest you wouldn't be posting claiming that healthcare is ineffective... You have made that situation

Erm... ?

I never said I was dishonest with them. I answered entirely honestly.

I also never said healthcare is ineffective...

I'm a bit confused

Edit: I should clarify; I don't have a plan to ctb soon. I have a plan to ctb in a year or two after exhausting my treatment options. Which I have told them. Maybe I didn't make that entirely clear.

 

[Jorms_McGander]

Erm... ?

I never said I was dishonest with them. I answered entirely honestly.

I also never said healthcare is ineffective...

I'm a bit confused

Oh I misread you. You surrendered your Ukrainian SN? Then you don't have means and therefore are ok to discharge, all is well.

 

[Rhizomorph1]

Oh I misread you. You surrendered your Ukrainian SN? Then you don't have means and therefore are ok to discharge, all is well.

No I still have my Ukrainian SN.

I have means, intent, plan, etc.

The only disqualifying factor, at least in my jurisdiction, is immediate intent. They simply cannot detain me for something I plan to do in a year; unless they had the resources to detain me for a whole year (they don't).

 

[Jorms_McGander]

No I still have my Ukrainian SN.

I have means, intent, plan, etc.

The only disqualifying factor, at least in my jurisdiction, is immediate intent.

Does healthcare know you have your Ukrainian sn? Does your mother? Healthcare would be relying on you not living alone at this point.

I probably would be on a hold if I told all those facts, I am with a brother
Colour me surprised that you're free I guess. Enjoy it :)
Also as a side note you have some nice rights where you live.

 

[Mi Mi]

So months ago I ordered SN from some random vendor I found in China. It never showed so I ordered from a vendor in Ukraine which showed up with no issue. It's now hidden somewhere very secure.

Fast forward to a few weeks back and my SN from china shows up (huh? Okay cool, I guess I have extra...)

The morning after I wake up to a cop in my bedroom (my mom let him in) and he confiscates the SN and asks if I consent to visit a doctor. Not wanting to cause a fuss, and having already visited the hospital with my family (who knows everything), I agree.

I show up, the doctors and nurses ask me a bunch of questions but are clearly thinking along the lines of "didn't we already cover this?"

They did a suicide risk assessment which I scored the highest risk possible, but since I assured them I have no plan to ctb soon or without talking to them, they didn't do a mental health form

(for my family's sake I will let them detain me until they can't afford to hold me anymore before ctbing so my family feels secure that they "did everything they could", etc.)

I have lunch with my mom at her favourite restaurant and continue my day as normal

If it's ok to ask
Are you in the US

 

[Rhizomorph1]

Does healthcare know you have your Ukrainian sn? Does your mother? Healthcare would be relying on you not living alone at this point.

I probably would be on a hold if I told all those facts, I am with a brother
Colour me surprised that you're free I guess. Enjoy it :)
Also as a side note you have some nice rights where you live.

Yep, my healthcare providers and mother knows that I have my Ukrainian SN.

I think it was a complicated situation for them as they spent a lot of time deliberating what to do with me, made me promise I would confide in my mother/them before doing anything and seemed unsure whether or not to let me go.

I think demonstrating my commitment to honesty, compliance re: everything else, wanting to die with dignity/without hurting my family & keeping everyone in the loop so I can say my goodbyes, etc. gave them enough confidence to release me.

I suppose I was very close to meeting their criteria, but ever so slightly off. I'm sure an element of discretion was exercised.

If it's ok to ask
Are you in the US

Canada.

We have good rights indeed. + Expanding MAID laws to include people whose sole health condition is a mental health disorder, come 2027. I'm sure some element of HCP discretion & scrutinization will be exercised here, too.

 

[Apathy79]

Gee that is surprising. Nice break!

Also love the signature. One of the all time great movies.

 

[Rhizomorph1]

Gee that is surprising. Nice break!

Also love the signature. One of the all time great movies.

Ghibli is sooo good

 

[Jorms_McGander]

Yep, my healthcare providers and mother knows that I have my Ukrainian SN.

I think it was a complicated situation for them as they spent a lot of time deliberating what to do with me, made me promise I would confide in my mother/them before doing anything and seemed unsure whether or not to let me go.

I think demonstrating my commitment to honesty, compliance re: everything else, wanting to die with dignity/without hurting my family & keeping everyone in the loop so I can say my goodbyes, etc. gave them enough confidence to release me.

I suppose I was very close to meeting their criteria, but ever so slightly off. I'm sure an element of discretion was exercised.

Canada.

We have good rights indeed. + Expanding MAID laws to include people whose sole health condition is a mental health disorder, come 2027. I'm sure some element of HCP discretion & scrutinization will be exercised here, too.

Hey we have the same rights lol. Well I am understanding your experience more. Thanks for writing it out

 

[locked*n*loaded]

It's fun for me to discuss stuff on the dark side of life, that's all I'm doing here.

Fun? That's a strange term to use in describing your interactions with people on a suicide forum who are at, or near, their lowest point in life. As if our station in life is merely entertainment and folly for yours.

 

[Rhizomorph1]

Fun? That's a strange term to use in describing your interactions with people on a suicide forum who are at, or near, their lowest point in life. As if our station in life is merely entertainment and folly for yours.

What were all going through in this site is egregious, serious and severe.

I also think they probably didn't mean it like this.

I'm grieving deeply. Yet, simultaneously I've occasionally found a sense of fun on this site. Perhaps it's a coping mechanism.

Either way, it's a delicate balance

Hey we have the same rights lol. Well I am understanding your experience more. Thanks for writing it out

For sure! Glad I could clarify :)

 

[Jorms_McGander]

Fun? That's a strange term to use in describing your interactions with people on a suicide forum who are at, or near, their lowest point in life. As if our station in life is merely entertainment and folly for yours.

You're a strange person picking fights on a suicide forum for people who are at or near their lowest point in life.

I find your judgements distasteful. Dying isn't the lowest point of my life and neither has been the journey to develop my strength enough to die.

Have a nice day, but next time if you feel weird about somebody else just move on without saying it cuz it's not your god damn business what I have or haven't come to find solace in.

 

[Rhizomorph1]

You're a strange person picking fights on a suicide forum for people who are at or near their lowest point in life.

I find your judgements distasteful. Dying isn't the lowest point of my life and neither has been the journey to develop my strength enough to die.

Have a nice day, but next time if you feel weird about somebody else just move on without saying it cuz it's not your god damn business what I have or haven't come to find solace in.

It's not my place, but if I may be given a say (with your permission) I invite us all to try to cultivate trust and understanding.

I'm sure it's just a misunderstanding. Remember that we are all feeling our way through incredibly challenging and similar circumstances by nature of being on this forum.

I understand the frustration of being confronted on here. The real enemy is not each other, but the people who have created conditions that brought us here in the first place.

Let's try to have patience in the face of others' mishaps & misunderstandings. Oftentimes people may step on our toes without intending to, simply because they have never been respected in other situations. It's hard to forgive, but we absolutely can and should try to hold compassionate space for others who are going through their own turbulent ride, even when their turbulence accidentally makes our own feel diminished

I truly believe neither of you are intending harm at your core; somewhere the thread of reason & certainty just became a bit tangled up in words or sentiments.

 

[Jorms_McGander]

It's not my place, but if I may be given a say (with your permission) I invite us all to try to cultivate trust and understanding.

I'm sure it's just a misunderstanding. Remember that we are all feeling our way through incredibly challenging and similar circumstances by nature of being on this forum.

I understand the frustration of being confronted on here. The real enemy is not each other, but the people who have created conditions that brought us here in the first place.

Let's try to have patience in the face of others' mishaps & misunderstandings. Oftentimes people may step on our toes without intending to, simply because they have never been respected in other situations. It's hard to forgive, but we absolutely can and should try to hold compassionate space for others who are going through their own turbulent ride, even when their turbulence accidentally makes our own feel diminished

I truly believe neither of you are intending harm at your core; somewhere the thread of reason & certainty just became a bit tangled up in words or sentiments.

This is a public space and it is your place to comment on my public commentary as you see fit, within the boundaries set out by the community rules which as I understand them in this context restrict us from a continued back-and-forth but allow us to express ourselves in a concise and respectful manner.

My proclivity toward profanity notwithstanding that is my goal here. I am processing my own emotions surrounding the end of my life and I wish to present myself as I am in my entirety and that includes my entire emotional reality. I am not going to end the existence of only my suffering -- I am ending my entire being and I don't see the need to force a negative emotional frame around every aspect of my life because I intend to end it.

I am emotionally talented and interested and I find it engaging to converse with different people regarding topics that other humans tend to want to avoid like illness and death in all their manifestations. It's fun to me. I am a benefit to society because of these natural talents and I would never cause harm to another. If a person doesn't wish to speak to me I will respect the simplest communication they can offer, and I can't read minds (even though I may appear to be able to from time to time this is due to unconscious emotional sensitivity) so I do need to hear something but that's within the realm of polite behaviour.

What's not polite is reading a very broadly defined word like "fun", forming snap judgements and then attacking another human being over those judgements without first attempting to further clarify the intent behind the vague wording. I acknowledge it was lazy vernacular and I now also regret that vernacular but I'm not going to own the narrative that I am harmful for wanting to exist as I truly am, nor any other person on Earth who does not seek to harm others.

I really appreciate your thoughts on this interaction because it doesn't come naturally to me so again I'd just say it is your place to have measured and constructive input like you did.

 

[UKscotty]

Sadly this is the reality, there is currently little that can be done for us.

Governments don't care and curing people doesn't help profits for pharmaceutical companies.

All they can really do is fill in a form and send us home telling us to think happy thoughts.

 

[thepiecessatup]

Looking at the research done on these risk assessments, they have extremely poor predictability of whether or not a person actually follows through with a suicide attempt.

I think the nurse was just passing time/trying to be helpful while the doctors talked.

It's like in the UK by the sounds of it. A form filling exercise.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

You're a strange person picking fights on a suicide forum for people who are at or near their lowest point in life.

I find your judgements distasteful. Dying isn't the lowest point of my life and neither has been the journey to develop my strength enough to die.

Have a nice day, but next time if you feel weird about somebody else just move on without saying it cuz it's not your god damn business what I have or haven't come to find solace in.

Im not picking a fight with anyone. Im expressing my opinion that using the word "fun" to describe what one is getting out of their interaction with others on a suicide forum is perverse. If you don't like my opinions, then dont read them and just move on. IMO, if you find it "fun" to read what suicidal people are dealing with, you're demented and sick. And I dont take orders from the likes of you. Why dont you go get your jollies and "fun", next, by reading and interacting with all of the families and their children suffering from cancer, or Downs Syndrome, on one of the Forums covering those maladies?

 

[Jorms_McGander]

That's a lot of assumption, aggression, and defamation for somebody who's interacting in good faith. There are too many negative judgements not only against myself but also against several communities at large for me to want to engage with what you've written. Have a nice day

 

[day]

Im not picking a fight with anyone. Im expressing my opinion that using the word "fun" to describe what one is getting out of their interaction with others on a suicide forum is perverse. If you don't like my opinions, then dont read them and just move on. IMO, if you find it "fun" to read what suicidal people are dealing with, you're demented and sick. And I dont take orders from the likes of you. Why dont you go get your jollies and "fun", next, by reading and interacting with all of the families and their children suffering from cancer, or Downs Syndrome, on one of the Forums covering those maladies?

That's a lot of assumption, aggression, and defamation for somebody who's interacting in good faith. There are too many negative judgements not only against myself but also against several communities at large for me to want to engage with what you've written. Have a nice day

we're going to stop responding and flaming other users now. if this continues i'll just issue both of you a warning. arguements are not what the forum is for so please keep both of your opinions to yourselves and let OP's post continue without further issues. thank you.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

Did the police have a search warrant? I don't think they can legally confiscate SN even with a search warrant.

 

[betternever2havbeen]

Do you know why you got the welfare check? How would the police even have found out you ordered it?

 

[Abyssal]

I've had similar experiences with doctors. Not the same set up with SN and all, but it always seems they are more than okay to let me go. I don't even have to lie to them. I've had people not believe my stories when I say I attempt and get to go free, so it's nice to see it's not only me. I don't want to assume they just don't care, I like to think people are naturally good, but it's hard to convince myself that we are sent away without being locked up after a light interrogation.

That said, this sounds very stressful. Are you alright Rhizo? Probably a dumb question around here but I just wanna make sure.

Oh and maybe name drop that Chinese seller. They sound not only like they are being watched but given the massive wait, quite questionable.

 

[Rhizomorph1]

It's like in the UK by the sounds of it. A form filling exercise.

I think it's just for lack of better options. Pragmatically speaking, they need some set of evidence-based criteria for decision making.

Sometimes the best evidence to date is simply not ideal.

Mild predictability is still a better bet than none at all. I hope this makes sense. There's obviously a lot they could improve on in a more cultural and systematic sense.

we're going to stop responding and flaming other users now. if this continues i'll just issue both of you a warning. arguements are not what the forum is for so please keep both of your opinions to yourselves and let OP's post continue without further issues. thank you.

Thanks Astrals :)

Do you know why you got the welfare check? How would the police even have found out you ordered it?

I asked the police officer.

Customs picked up on a half kilo of white powder that looks suspiciously like drugs with vague labelling. Probably a random scan; they randomly do extra checks on certain packages using random number generators.

They swabbed it and found out it was SN so they called the police department in the jurisdiction of the shipping address.

It was just bad luck. Apparently they will also follow through with delivering the package so that you don't know the welfare check is coming, as otherwise they would legally have to notify you of a confiscated package (SN is not a controlled substance afterall)

There was no legal obligation for me or my mom to let them in or for me to give them the SN. I only complied because I had my Ukrainian SN. Otherwise I could just say it's for culinary purposes.

I've had similar experiences with doctors. Not the same set up with SN and all, but it always seems they are more than okay to let me go. I don't even have to lie to them. I've had people not believe my stories when I say I attempt and get to go free, so it's nice to see it's not only me. I don't want to assume they just don't care, I like to think people are naturally good, but it's hard to convince myself that we are sent away without being locked up after a light interrogation.

That said, this sounds very stressful. Are you alright Rhizo? Probably a dumb question around here but I just wanna make sure.

Oh and maybe name drop that Chinese seller. They sound not only like they are being watched but given the massive wait, quite questionable.

Thanks for checking in

It really wasnt all that stressful. The doctors were concerned with how relaxed and compliant I was since most cases are apparently a lot more emotional, distraught & untrusting of care providers.

If anything I was curious about the procedures and found it all a bit interesting. Even joked with law enforcement that I should ticket him for not wearing a seatbelt ;)

I tried to retain a serious attitude though for respect to the diligent & caring staff so as to not come across as cold or uncaring.

---

Having been a researcher on various projects involving healthcare team functioning, medical care, nursing, and psychotherapy, I am sympathetic with the various challenging dilemmas and decision rules faced by the care team. I'm confident they truly care and are trying to balance the capacities of the care system with duties to safeguard & do no harm, etc.

Suicide is simply a bit elusive, even within medicine. That's not to say there aren't meaningful and effective treatments. But, much of it relies on patient follow through and sometimes patients are unwilling, or their circumstances are beyond the capacities of medicine.

Even harder is determining when and where someone's circumstances are beyond medicinal capabilities vs. Simply being unwilling/unmotivated. That's the hard conversation being had regarding MAID right now. I generally take a more liberal/lenient person-centered & choice-focused perspective, but medical colleges are far more conservative and cautious.

They're doing their best and I'm really thankful they're there trying, regardless. It makes me feel less alone

---

I don't think the Chinese seller is being watched. I know others who have successfully ordered from them.

In fact, I think it's unlikely most sellers are being watched as they likely use variable stealth methods and fake return addresses, making it challenging to trace. I know the packaging I received was different than the packaging others received it in (sent me via photos).

It's more likely that customs is simply intercepting packages at random, in my opinion.

 

[thenamingofcats]

This is the most accurate description of the life of a suicidal person ever. Gathering multiple options, the cop takes away the presumably shadier one, you get a maxed out score on a suicide inventory and then have to go to lunch.