God and Suicide

[EddieAllenPoe]

I've been reflecting today about religion and suicide. I've been on Sanctioned Suicide for a couple months now and have noted that there is a diverse variety of people on the forums.There are people who are atheist, some who are Jewish, a few Christians, and even some who grew up Muslim. I believe I even saw a few posts with some references to Hinduism. I even recall a few people who seemed to be interested in discussing the purely philosophical ramifications of suicide. Suicide is definitely a difficult subject to discuss in general.

I'm actually not going to make any definitive statements about suicide. I'm still exploring my own feelings and dealing with struggles I have in regards to my own thoughts of suicide. I do believe that there is a tendency to unfairly judge the act of suicide and it is rare to have any real conversations about it. Instead, suicide is often labeled as "taboo" and it is often implied in religous circles that those who commit suicide will face retribution in the afterlife. Is that true though? How would you know?

Does anyone else care to discuss their religious or philosophical beliefs in relation to how they view suicide? I would love to hear your thoughts. Especially if you do have religious beliefs or if you are struggling to reconcile those beliefs with how you feel. I think this community is awesome because it allows for people to be honest about their feelings.

I'll finish this random post by including a video by Rick Warren. I'm definitely not posting this to "push" Christian beliefs or anything. I simply grew up Christian and I am most particularly aware of how suicide impacted this man's family. I'm linking this out of respect to help open up a conversation about suicide. Sometimes, even when you believe suicide can be rational, you need to listen to every side. For some people, the act of suicide has caused a lot of hurt. Does that mean, though, it is always selfish? I think it is important to hear every side before developing a conclusion.

 

[aspx]

I'm not religious, I think that the whole "if you kill yourself, you'll burn in hell forever" thing was just a way for the Church to prevent people from catching the bus back in the middle ages. But I could be wrong about it, there's no way of knowing.
I don't know much about what the philosophers said about suicide, but I remember that a lot of them were against it. Suicide is always wrong in the eyes of who never thought about it, why do you think that the majority of people think it's wrong? They've never seriously considered it.

the act of suicide has caused a lot of hurt. Does that mean, though, it is always selfish?

I believe that it depends. For example, if someone is a vegetable and there's no quality of life, why keep living? To sustain other's people emotions? Now that's selfish. But if someone committed suicide just because their relationship ended, I'd say it's selfish.
Humans (and animals in general) are selfish by nature. Why would suicide be different?


I also tried to watch the video that you linked, but in only 4 minutes I found the following and couldn't continue watching:

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Call Suicide hotline

Emotions don't last forever

You don't think straight when you're depressed

 

[salvation]

I don't think there is a god. I was bullied severely by teachers and students at a church school. If there was a god, he would've helped me.

 

[Johnnythefox]

I think that the whole "if you kill yourself, you'll burn in hell forever" thing was just a way for the Church to prevent people from catching the bus back in the middle ages. But I could be wrong about it, there's no way of knowing.

No you're not wrong about it, religion = control.

 

[Empty Smile]

I'm not religious. I have never believed in god, even as a kid.

To me, religion was made up to make people feel comfortable when death was near.

 

[EddieAllenPoe]

It was interesting to hear your response to watching the video @aspx. I think I can agree that Rick does come out in the first few minutes with some simplistic truisms. I think this can be a good quality in some ways but it fails when you're trying to "hear" people that are suicidal. I especially rolled my eyes when he mentioned the Suicide Hotline. I think he means well, but I can see why you would tune him out. I've personally called the Suicide Hotline a few times and it absolutely did not help me. It actually made me feel worse. I could tell that the people I was speaking to didn't care. I don't think they even knew what to say, and they were just there because it was their job.

As for the suicide and hellfire comment, I absolutely agree that this was made up. In fact, in my own research, it became apparent to me that in Christianity this concept came exclusively from the Catholic church. Some protestants just simply accept this attitude towards suicide as "obvious" and never really question the belief.

If you've never had a chance to explore Philosophy and Suicide, I recommend perusing wikipedia. You'll find an equal amount of philosophers from both side of the issue, both for and against suicide. It's fascinating to hear their arguments.

You're also right... everyone is selfish. That is probably a poorly phrased question. "Is suicide selfish?"

I have found that I am sometimes disturbed by the reasons people are suicidal. I can understand people who are sick and have terminal illnesses. It seems obvious in these cases to me that they should have a right to die. What I find disturbing though is witnessing younger people who want to commit suicide due to... What I can only describe as a lack of emotional maturity. They're upset they haven't had sex. They're upset because they have no friends. Their parents torment them. You can find people as young as 15 on here. The only reason it upsets me is because it makes me realize... I've been in your shoes. I've survived. I would have missed out on a lot if I simply killed myself at your age. What's worse... There are some people I've seen who are wanting to commit suicide and they have lives that I envy. They have good educations... they live in amazing places... they're not poor... and it makes the whole idea of simply committing suicide "just because" to seem absurd.

That's where I kind of appreciate people like Rick Warren. I don't really "fit in" to his simplistic worldview. I don't think like him at all... but he has a good heart. He knew how to form large congregations of people who developed meaningful communities. I kind of envy that and I think there is a lot of value to what he does as a Pastor. It's interesting to me that his own son committed suicide... because I think I can understand what it's like to BE his son. I can understand why he may have felt alienated and I know all too well why suicide would have seemed rational in the face of depression. I don't know his particular story... but I think I can relate.

 

[TheFinalCountdown]

As aspx said above, that video is full of cliches and empty platitudes and is exactly the kind of thing that doesn't belong on SS

 

[EddieAllenPoe]

As aspx said above, that video is full of cliches and empty platitudes and is exactly the kind of thing that doesn't belong on SS

Keep in mind I didn't post it to promote empty platitudes. I disagree with the part that it "doesn't belong" here. Because it's part of the conversation. If you have no experience of hearing empty platitudes and you don't have feelings about them... You probably wouldn't want to be on SS. That clearly isn't the case for everyone. It certainly doesn't describe me. That's why I disagree.

 

[TheFinalCountdown]

Keep in mind I didn't post it to promote empty platitudes. I disagree with the part that it "doesn't belong" here. Because it's part of the conversation. If you have no experience of hearing empty platitudes and you don't have feelings about them... You probably wouldn't want to be on SS. That clearly isn't the case for everyone. It certainly doesn't describe me. That's why I disagree.

You're wrong, the whole point of sanctioned suicide is to get away from all that nonsense

 

[EddieAllenPoe]

You're wrong, the whole point of sanctioned suicide is to get away from all that nonsense

I disagree. Simply saying "you're wrong" cheapens pretty much everyone who has ever been here. Besides, I originally came on here to learn methods of suicide. I didn't need a site to get away from people. I can do that anywhere.

 

[Exile]

Warren is a religious nut whose political advocacy leads to a lot of dead people and other suffering. If he really wanted to do good, he would give all his and his church's money to repair the damage that he and other religious nuts have done.

 

[TheFinalCountdown]

I disagree. Simply saying "you're wrong" cheapens pretty much everyone who has ever been here. Besides, I originally came on here to learn methods of suicide. I didn't need a site to get away from people. I can do that anywhere.

I'm not cheapening anyone and how dare you suggest that I am. You aren't contributing to the conversion by posting videos of trite cliches and if you feel so free to talk anywhere, why are you even here? Go discuss suicide methods with your church friends

 

[EddieAllenPoe]

I'm not cheapening anyone and how dare you suggest that I am. You aren't contributing to the conversion by posting videos of trite cliches and if you feel so free to talk anywhere, why are you even here? Go discuss suicide methods with your church friends

It's like I'm having a conversation with Australia. Did you just block me? Do you even hear what I'm saying? I'm not trying to be rude to you. You just don't understand what I'm saying.

I don't think there is a god. I was bullied severely by teachers and students at a church school. If there was a god, he would've helped me.

I'm sorry to hear that. It really is sad that people have these kinds of experiences at institutions that are supposed to be exemplifying love. You should check out Christopher Hitchens. I think he could relate. He wasn't just an atheist, he was an anti-theist. He hated the concept of God and felt like he was a cosmic bully. Is that how you view God?

 

[aspx]

That is probably a poorly phrased question. "Is suicide selfish?"

Uhh... I gave this phrase some thoughts and I'd like to debate.
Imagine that you wake up and see on the news that your favorite artist has died. He took his own life. You would feel pretty bad, right?
I mean, a lot of people will feel just as bad as you, or even worse. A lot of people, yourself included, feels that his art means everything, now it's just a memory.
There are people who loved him and now they're in tears and they probably think that he was selfish, but for the other part of people who didn't even know who was he, it was just another suicide. You see where I'm going, right?
Of course you can't compare the pain of losing someone close to you (like a family member) to an artist who will never know that you even exist.
People want the feeling of having it there because it's comfy, and they say bad things when situations change drastically. Pain is my definition of that. You will only feel pain when releasing one object that was before causing pressure on your skin. Anyway, you only feel pain when situations change, and it's the same with the emotional. I believe that people only say that suicide is selfish because they'll need to adapt to the death of a beloved one, it's easier to say it because they're too angry/sad and it's a cliche that they just repeat. Both "suicide" and "selfish" words are very near to a lot of people, one being synonym of the other but not the contrary.


"Is suicide more selfish than any other acts?"
I'd like to see some thoughts on this. This came when I was thinking about the artist, lol.

 

[EddieAllenPoe]

@aspx I almost never get sad when a celebrity dies. I'll never understand that. It only feels strange to me hearing that so-n-so commited suicide too. Maybe I'm calloused.

I will say that there is a lot of irony in the fact that I find myself judging a few suicides I've seen. It's ironic because I'm probably thinking exactly the same things as them and I'm caring just as little about how it will make other people feel. I honestly feel a little like it shouldn't matter what other people think of what I do. Is that selfish? It probably is by definition. I guess seeing this aspect of it gave me some insight. Because seeing why some people want or wanted to commit suicide made me feel angry or disgusted. I was mad at them a little bit... Here I am wanting to die for what I feel are far more valid reasons... I deal with shit that is WAY WORSE... AND THIS PERSON DIED WHO HAD EVERYTHING. I WOULD GIVE ANYTHING TO BE IN THEIR SHOES. WTF.

I guess it's kind of hard to not develop feelings or have opinions about others because we're social creatures.

 

[EmotionlessWanderer]

I honestly think the whole suicides get punished in the afterlife is nothing more than a control device because well governments and societies can't use you if you're dead.

 

[SadGirl]

I've been reflecting today about religion and suicide. I've been on Sanctioned Suicide for a couple months now and have noted that there is a diverse variety of people on the forums.There are people who are atheist, some who are Jewish, a few Christians, and even some who grew up Muslim. I believe I even saw a few posts with some references to Hinduism. I even recall a few people who seemed to be interested in discussing the purely philosophical ramifications of suicide. Suicide is definitely a difficult subject to discuss in general.

I'm actually not going to make any definitive statements about suicide. I'm still exploring my own feelings and dealing with struggles I have in regards to my own thoughts of suicide. I do believe that there is a tendency to unfairly judge the act of suicide and it is rare to have any real conversations about it. Instead, suicide is often labeled as "taboo" and it is often implied in religous circles that those who commit suicide will face retribution in the afterlife. Is that true though? How would you know?

Does anyone else care to discuss their religious or philosophical beliefs in relation to how they view suicide? I would love to hear your thoughts. Especially if you do have religious beliefs or if you are struggling to reconcile those beliefs with how you feel. I think this community is awesome because it allows for people to be honest about their feelings.

I'll finish this random post by including a video by Rick Warren. I'm definitely not posting this to "push" Christian beliefs or anything. I simply grew up Christian and I am most particularly aware of how suicide impacted this man's family. I'm linking this out of respect to help open up a conversation about suicide. Sometimes, even when you believe suicide can be rational, you need to listen to every side. For some people, the act of suicide has caused a lot of hurt. Does that mean, though, it is always selfish? I think it is important to hear every side before developing a conclusion.

I'm an atheist, I believe that when we die anyway, we just cease to exist, and it's like sleeping forever. We came from chance, we came from the dust, and to dust we return, I do not believe in any religious doctrine, but in science, the only explanation for everything, for me is clear. I believe that hell is personal, each one lives his own nightmare.

 

[anuglymale]

religion = evolutionary strategy

I don't want to survive anymore. Therefore I don't really care about religion, because religion is just something groups developed to survive.

I think religion is important, people will return to religion one way or another. But it must change for the industrial society. I don't like atheists. Saying that God does not exist because it's existence cannot be empirically proven is just a misunderstanding of what religion is.

 

[Xaphous]

I don't want to go into much detail at all other than in short I think life is a spiritual battle. My spiritual beliefs and from what I have read/studied/experienced mean that ending my life would make the inescapable spiritual quest inexplicably more difficult and I hate so damn much if that is indeed the truth because I can't stand my life on Earth and that means there are negative consequences if I do end it. I hate to even write this.

 

[silentsinger]

I don't think there is a god. I was bullied severely by teachers and students at a church school. If there was a god, he would've helped me.

I'm so sorry. Things like this are so unfair. It's not right that you were treated that way

 

[AveryConure]

Honestly I don't think God/Buddha/whoever would automatically send you to hell if you commit suicide. Especially if you had a terminal illness and there's not much anyone can do to help make life actually worth it for you anymore. That's pretty shitty to just group a bunch of cancer patients into hell like that.

I'm not religious but I just follow the whole "if it makes you feel good at the end of the day and you're not hurting yourself or anyone else then you do you" doctrine but extremists exist everywhere unfortunately.

 

[Memento Mori]

I don't think there is a god. I was bullied severely by teachers and students at a church school. If there was a god, he would've helped me.

that would mean that god has to help everyone with all of their problems, i dont think that would work out with all the problems everyone is having with everyone. in my eyes church has not much to do with god or being religious, there's no need to involve other people into one owns beliefs. you can take religion as a justification for war, or you can take religion as a justification for being nice to each other. i have never read the bible (completely and with interest, only back in school many years ago) and i'm not sure if you really need a guide thats written back in the past. but i'm also not very into that theme so i'm not gonna say anything more. when the time comes i will confront myself with that.

have a nice day ☮

 

[lost_soul83]

You're wrong, the whole point of sanctioned suicide is to get away from all that nonsense

No, the whole point of SS is to discuss suicide and EVERY opinion about it, not just the opinions that are the same as our own. This is a PRO-CHOICE forum, which means people should be free to discuss any opinions about death and ctb without fear of retribution. I know people on here who like to "bully" and tell people they're wrong for their opinions and that they shouldn't post certain things, and I think that's wrong. Human beings naturally have differing thoughts, views and opinions about everything. If you take nothing away from my response, remember this; an opinion is inherently not right or wrong, that's why it's an opinion.

I'm not cheapening anyone and how dare you suggest that I am. You aren't contributing to the conversion by posting videos of trite cliches and if you feel so free to talk anywhere, why are you even here? Go discuss suicide methods with your church friends

biggest, LOUDEST eye roll EVER

Do you realize that your closed-minded attitude is extremely similar to some of those "religious nuts?"

Uhh... I gave this phrase some thoughts and I'd like to debate.
Imagine that you wake up and see on the news that your favorite artist has died. He took his own life. You would feel pretty bad, right?
I mean, a lot of people will feel just as bad as you, or even worse. A lot of people, yourself included, feels that his art means everything, now it's just a memory.
There are people who loved him and now they're in tears and they probably think that he was selfish, but for the other part of people who didn't even know who was he, it was just another suicide. You see where I'm going, right?
Of course you can't compare the pain of losing someone close to you (like a family member) to an artist who will never know that you even exist.
People want the feeling of having it there because it's comfy, and they say bad things when situations change drastically. Pain is my definition of that. You will only feel pain when releasing one object that was before causing pressure on your skin. Anyway, you only feel pain when situations change, and it's the same with the emotional. I believe that people only say that suicide is selfish because they'll need to adapt to the death of a beloved one, it's easier to say it because they're too angry/sad and it's a cliche that they just repeat. Both "suicide" and "selfish" words are very near to a lot of people, one being synonym of the other but not the contrary.


"Is suicide more selfish than any other acts?"
I'd like to see some thoughts on this. This came when I was thinking about the artist, lol.

I think that the people that want to keep the suicidal person around, even though they're suffering insurmountably every day just because it's "comfy" for them are the selfish ones.

@aspx I almost never get sad when a celebrity dies. I'll never understand that. It only feels strange to me hearing that so-n-so commited suicide too. Maybe I'm calloused.

I will say that there is a lot of irony in the fact that I find myself judging a few suicides I've seen. It's ironic because I'm probably thinking exactly the same things as them and I'm caring just as little about how it will make other people feel. I honestly feel a little like it shouldn't matter what other people think of what I do. Is that selfish? It probably is by definition. I guess seeing this aspect of it gave me some insight. Because seeing why some people want or wanted to commit suicide made me feel angry or disgusted. I was mad at them a little bit... Here I am wanting to die for what I feel are far more valid reasons... I deal with shit that is WAY WORSE... AND THIS PERSON DIED WHO HAD EVERYTHING. I WOULD GIVE ANYTHING TO BE IN THEIR SHOES. WTF.

I guess it's kind of hard to not develop feelings or have opinions about others because we're social creatures.

Something I always keep in mind though, is that there is ALWAYS someone out there that has it A LOT worse than I do. And everyone that ctb probably thinks that their reasons are valid. You have no idea what those people's lives are like and what they can personally handle and what they cannot. I don't judge anyone's reasons for wanting to ctb. I just try to be compassionate, empathetic and offer a listening ear. I think that's what this forum should be about, compassion for others and supporting them no matter what they choose to do or why they make those choices.

religion = evolutionary strategy

I don't want to survive anymore. Therefore I don't really care about religion, because religion is just something groups developed to survive.

I think religion is important, people will return to religion one way or another. But it must change for the industrial society. I don't like atheists. Saying that God does not exist because it's existence cannot be empirically proven is just a misunderstanding of what religion is.

I don't dislike atheists but I agree with your statement above them needing proof. Faith is believing in something without proof, which is what most religions are based on.
I'm a Christian and I believe that the Lord died for ALL sin, including suicide and that if you believe Jesus is your Lord and Savior, then you're going to heaven no matter what. All sin is forgivable, including suicide.

 

[Taylor]

I honestly don't understand how non-believing people can go about their day, and not realize that literally everyone and everything (nature and animals) around them is a living creation of God. Granted, I lived most of my life up until I was about 24 or so, completely blind to it and just went about the motions of life, until it finally hit me. I grew up with this general thought process like oh, we're just people, doing stuff in this whole thing that is called "life". You go to school and get a job, car etc. For some reason I didn't make the connection until way later that YOU yourself, are literally a living, breathing creature of this Earth, just like your friends, teachers, animals, nature, and everything else around you. We all share the same design, having a heartbeat, lungs, digestive system, the ability to see, hear and feel, and process information at an extraordinarily higher level of cognitive function, it's truly remarkable when you really think about it. To think that our entire existence wasn't created by some type of original, almighty creator of a higher power, is beyond simple minded.

I was raised Christian, but never truly understood it until I came to this realization and experienced my own unimaginable suffering, where everything finally "clicked" and became clear as day. We truly are creations of God, with a purpose none other than to be his companions and worship and praise him with this gift of life He has given us. We were originally created as perfect, immortal beings who were incapable of ever suffering any harm, disease, or death, until the fall when man disobeyed God, and sin entered the world. God hates sin and the penalty of sin is death, which we all are now susceptible to. However, God loves us so much that He was willing to sacrifice his one and only Son Jesus, so that anyone who believes in him has the chance to be cleansed of their sins, and live eternally as perfect, glorified and immortal beings again on the new earth He has in store for us, with the curse of sin permanently removed. How incredible is that. God is real, and the act of suicide, or any sin for that matter, could never separate you from his love.

 

[EmotionlessWanderer]

I honestly don't understand how non-believing people can go about their day, and not realize that literally everyone and everything (nature and animals) around them is a living creation of God. Granted, I lived most of my life up until I was about 24 or so, completely blind to it and just went about the motions of life, until it finally hit me. I grew up with this general thought process like oh, we're just people, doing stuff in this whole thing that is called "life". You go to school and get a job, car etc. For some reason I didn't make the connection until way later that YOU yourself, are literally a living, breathing creature of this Earth, just like your friends, teachers, animals, nature, and everything else around you. We all share the same design, having a heartbeat, lungs, digestive system, the ability to see, hear and feel, and process information at an extraordinarily higher level of cognitive function, it's truly remarkable when you really think about it. To think that our entire existence wasn't created by some type of original, almighty creator of a higher power, is beyond simple minded.

I was raised Christian, but never truly understood it until I came to this realization and experienced my own unimaginable suffering, where everything finally "clicked" and became clear as day. We truly are creations of God, with a purpose none other than to be his companions and worship and praise him with this gift of life He has given us. We were originally created as perfect, immortal beings who were incapable of ever suffering any harm, disease, or death, until the fall when man disobeyed God, and sin entered the world. God hates sin and the penalty of sin is death, which we all are now susceptible to. However, God loves us so much that He was willing to sacrifice his one and only Son Jesus, so that anyone who believes in him has the chance to be cleansed of their sins, and live eternally as perfect, glorified and immortal beings again on the new earth He has in store for us, with the curse of sin permanently removed. How incredible is that. God is real, and the act of suicide, or any sin for that matter, could never separate you from his love.

I hope god will understand that some of us are not fit for this world.

 

[TheFinalCountdown]

I honestly don't understand how non-believing people can go about their day, and not realize that literally everyone and everything (nature and animals) around them is a living creation of God. Granted, I lived most of my life up until I was about 24 or so, completely blind to it and just went about the motions of life, until it finally hit me. I grew up with this general thought process like oh, we're just people, doing stuff in this whole thing that is called "life". You go to school and get a job, car etc. For some reason I didn't make the connection until way later that YOU yourself, are literally a living, breathing creature of this Earth, just like your friends, teachers, animals, nature, and everything else around you. We all share the same design, having a heartbeat, lungs, digestive system, the ability to see, hear and feel, and process information at an extraordinarily higher level of cognitive function, it's truly remarkable when you really think about it. To think that our entire existence wasn't created by some type of original, almighty creator of a higher power, is beyond simple minded.

I was raised Christian, but never truly understood it until I came to this realization and experienced my own unimaginable suffering, where everything finally "clicked" and became clear as day. We truly are creations of God, with a purpose none other than to be his companions and worship and praise him with this gift of life He has given us. We were originally created as perfect, immortal beings who were incapable of ever suffering any harm, disease, or death, until the fall when man disobeyed God, and sin entered the world. God hates sin and the penalty of sin is death, which we all are now susceptible to. However, God loves us so much that He was willing to sacrifice his one and only Son Jesus, so that anyone who believes in him has the chance to be cleansed of their sins, and live eternally as perfect, glorified and immortal beings again on the new earth He has in store for us, with the curse of sin permanently removed. How incredible is that. God is real, and the act of suicide, or any sin for that matter, could never separate you from his love.

I think I threw up in my mouth reading that. Are you a troll or do you really believe that shit?

 

[Taylor]

I think I threw up in my mouth reading that. Are you a troll or do you really believe that shit?

It's the truth, laid out plain in front of you. To each their own, but Jesus laid down his life for you and endured unimaginable suffering out of extraordinary love and compassion for you. If you reject his free offering, you can look forward to eternal torment and separation from God.

 

[EmotionlessWanderer]

It's the truth, laid out plain in front of you. To each their own, but Jesus laid down his life for you and endured unimaginable suffering out of extraordinary love and compassion for you. If you reject his free offering, you can look forward to eternal torment and separation from God.

Get out

 

[Taylor]

I hope god will understand that some of us are not fit for this world.

God understands everyone, and everything. You are already loved, more than you can possibly imagine.

 

[TheFinalCountdown]

It's the truth, laid out plain in front of you. To each their own, but Jesus laid down his life for you and endured unimaginable suffering out of extraordinary love and compassion for you. If you reject his free offering, you can look forward to eternal torment and separation from God.

Troll it is