Discussion Getting Better Without Feeling Better?

[Jealous Blackheart]

Day to day I do not find myself plagued by intense emotions, negative or positive. I usually don't feel much at all. I've largely lived an emotionally incompetent life, and on the odd occasions I do start feeling things they're quite foreign to me and I struggle to identify or articulate them.

This year I've been on recovery road and for the most part it has been very stable but today I felt something. Some memories I can't get rid of pulled me in a certain direction this morning. I did not fight it, and I was reminded of a natural truth. All of this has left me in a state I'd like to describe as hopelessly motivated. I would not call this a desirable sensation. It's something like a cocktail of anger and optimism, euphoria and hurt. It feels like revenge.

The reason I'm in recovery is not because life magically became wonderful, it's because life couldn't get worse. None of my methods were effective so I gave up trying.

Even though my motivation to get better boils down to having nothing else to do, I have been making progress.
My ID and my license have both been renewed. I am taking care of my body again since I need to live in it and I've recovered most of my fitness. I'm slowly learning another language, My penmanship has improved. I'm checking more books off of my literary bucket list. And most importantly I'm actively pursuing ways to earn a better living and finding a real career (this is the most difficult part by far).

But these are just boxes to tick even though I am ticking them. If an angel put N under my pillow and I found it tonight I can't promise I would wake up tomorrow.

So my question now is: Can you really get better without feeling better or is an emotional component necessary? And if it is, is the revenge cocktail I felt this morning a good pillar to lean on? Is it healthy to want to feel better strictly to stand above the people who've wounded you? Do I need a recovery partner? Is what I'm doing enough?

Any and all feedback that doesn't involve seeing a therapist or counsellor is welcome. I'm all ears.

 

[SecretDissociation]

I don't have an immediate answer. But the therapists I was seeing were always asking me if 'I wanted to be here' and do therapy and if I actually felt like being there. It seemed to always be some sort of pre-requisite. I think that most behavioural modality therapists will think that to get better you have to start feeling better too. Although, I think that I don't have to enjoy coming to therapy, I can just do the exercises and tasks and come back and stuff (even though the exercises didn't help at all so I came back unsatisfied). But it would always circle back to the big question 'Do you want to be here?' and I didn't really know how to answer that because I didn't really and I don't really want to be anywhere. I just do things on autopilot. E.g schedule a therapist appointment and I go because it's scheduled. Why does my personal feelings matter? Like you, I do things, ticking the checklist as you say, do this assignment done, get good grades done, eat, sleep, stay alive, hangout with friends, work, done done and done.

But it seems to be a pre-requisite (to professionals) to do these things with joy, with some sort of external will factor. But I don't think so. I'm/I was in recovery because I wanted to stop being miserable. Not because I want to be happier, I just want to function like a normal person without feeling like killing myself. But it seems that you have to sacrifice a lot of things, and one of those is sacrificing 'not feeling better' (all the time).

I think it's possible to get better without explicitly feeling better. It's just that there aren't many people out there willing to work with with you/us because it can be hard.

I have (think I have) trauma. I have memories too that bring me further down. And you know maybe these memories will be with me forever, but I do think it's possible to get better while having these memories.

I'm not sure if someone answering if what you're doing enough will help. But it sounds like you're doing everything you can and that's what matters. You're doing what other functional people do. So make sure that you know that that counts (that was so word-y).

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

I don't have any advice, but just wanted to say that I'm in the very similar situation and I deeply relate.

As an aside, what have you been reading? Anything that particularly stands out?

 

[Jealous Blackheart]

I don't have an immediate answer. But the therapists I was seeing were always asking me if 'I wanted to be here' and do therapy and if I actually felt like being there. It seemed to always be some sort of pre-requisite. I think that most behavioural modality therapists will think that to get better you have to start feeling better too. Although, I think that I don't have to enjoy coming to therapy, I can just do the exercises and tasks and come back and stuff (even though the exercises didn't help at all so I came back unsatisfied). But it would always circle back to the big question 'Do you want to be here?' and I didn't really know how to answer that because I didn't really and I don't really want to be anywhere. I just do things on autopilot. E.g schedule a therapist appointment and I go because it's scheduled. Why does my personal feelings matter? Like you, I do things, ticking the checklist as you say, do this assignment done, get good grades done, eat, sleep, stay alive, hangout with friends, work, done done and done.

But it seems to be a pre-requisite (to professionals) to do these things with joy, with some sort of external will factor. But I don't think so. I'm/I was in recovery because I wanted to stop being miserable. Not because I want to be happier, I just want to function like a normal person without feeling like killing myself. But it seems that you have to sacrifice a lot of things, and one of those is sacrificing 'not feeling better' (all the time).

I think it's possible to get better without explicitly feeling better. It's just that there aren't many people out there willing to work with with you/us because it can be hard.

I have (think I have) trauma. I have memories too that bring me further down. And you know maybe these memories will be with me forever, but I do think it's possible to get better while having these memories.

I'm not sure if someone answering if what you're doing enough will help. But it sounds like you're doing everything you can and that's what matters. You're doing what other functional people do. So make sure that you know that that counts (that was so word-y).

Wordy is good. It helps me calibrate. I don't do much socializing and certainly not about this off of this site (anymore).

The insight to what therapists say to you when you seem to be in such a similar position is also very helpful. So the professional consensus (in your experience) seems to be that you have to feel better but that is largely inaccessible to me. Do you have any larger goals in life? Bucket list items to check off that keep you going? How have you been deciding what's worth doing? I'd love to know your recovery story because of our similarities.

Making peace with the past was also a big deal for me. There was a lot of letting go and separations that helped me function better. The memories are still there but instead of trying to erase them, which is a vain project, there is the method of making the entire pie bigger so the slice is a smaller %. Since you are doing therapy you may have access to other ways of dealing with your trauma but time will tell, won't it?

I don't have any advice, but just wanted to say that I'm in the very similar situation and I deeply relate.

As an aside, what have you been reading? Anything that particularly stands out?

Mostly classic literature. Recently I've read Carmilla, The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, The House of Bondage, The Phantom of the Opera, and I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings. Are you a reader as well?

 

[SecretDissociation]

Wordy is good. It helps me calibrate. I don't do much socializing and certainly not about this off of this site (anymore).

The insight to what therapists say to you when you seem to be in such a similar position is also very helpful. So the professional consensus (in your experience) seems to be that you have to feel better but that is largely inaccessible to me. Do you have any larger goals in life? Bucket list items to check off that keep you going? How have you been deciding what's worth doing? I'd love to know your recovery story because of our similarities.

Making peace with the past was also a big deal for me. There was a lot of letting go and separations that helped me function better. The memories are still there but instead of trying to erase them, which is a vain project, there is the method of making the entire pie bigger so the slice is a smaller %. Since you are doing therapy you may have access to other ways of dealing with your trauma but time will tell, won't it?

Mostly classic literature. Recently I've read Carmilla, The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, The House of Bondage, The Phantom of the Opera, and I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings. Are you a reader as well?

I recently dropped out of therapy. It wasn't going well, and made me feel worst afterwards. imo, the therapists weren't very understanding or patient, and they were men (#trauma from your father amiright? >:( ).

I have large goals in life but they fluctuate. For instance, I'd like a small house, and I want to be a good English teacher. I've ticked off my bucket list, and most of them included buying things or doing things alone and I've done them. The problem is that I don't really get joy. Emotional permanence isn't something I developed, and I don't remember having it (probably the autism).

I usually decide what's worth doing just on it's overall efficacy. Will it give me some sort of joy? Will it be fun? Will it help me survive?

I wish I had other ways of dealing with my trauma, but behavioural therapy and counselling isn't for me and I don't forsee them working (hence why I left DBT, mostly because of the therapists though). I need trauma therapy.

I think I've been trying to recover my whole life, which is a bit different to other people's story of recovery. Do tell what yours is!
But I've always known since ~8 that I shouldn't feel miserable and like dying, and so recovery started with doing things like listening to my father, or being religious, doing good in school, dieting, exercising, reading online about improving mental health. Doctor's never really listened to me until I kept going back and begging for help in summer of 2023. But, honestly, I'm starting to lose hope in recovery! Too many rules.

I request again, What's your recovery story? It'd be nice to read if you're comfortable.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

Mostly classic literature. Recently I've read Carmilla, The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, The House of Bondage, The Phantom of the Opera, and I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings. Are you a reader as well?

I am indeed! My preferred genre is narrative history (non-fiction) though. The most recent novel I read was Dostoevsky's The House of the Dead.

 

[Jealous Blackheart]

I recently dropped out of therapy. It wasn't going well, and made me feel worst afterwards. imo, the therapists weren't very understanding or patient, and they were men (#trauma from your father amiright? >:( ).

I have large goals in life but they fluctuate. For instance, I'd like a small house, and I want to be a good English teacher. I've ticked off my bucket list, and most of them included buying things or doing things alone and I've done them. The problem is that I don't really get joy. Emotional permanence isn't something I developed, and I don't remember having it (probably the autism).

I usually decide what's worth doing just on it's overall efficacy. Will it give me some sort of joy? Will it be fun? Will it help me survive?

I wish I had other ways of dealing with my trauma, but behavioural therapy and counselling isn't for me and I don't forsee them working (hence why I left DBT, mostly because of the therapists though). I need trauma therapy.

I think I've been trying to recover my whole life, which is a bit different to other people's story of recovery. Do tell what yours is!
But I've always known since ~8 that I shouldn't feel miserable and like dying, and so recovery started with doing things like listening to my father, or being religious, doing good in school, dieting, exercising, reading online about improving mental health. Doctor's never really listened to me until I kept going back and begging for help in summer of 2023. But, honestly, I'm starting to lose hope in recovery! Too many rules.

I request again, What's your recovery story? It'd be nice to read if you're comfortable.

It's unfortunate that therapy didn't work out for you. Would you consider trying it again if the therapist wasn't a man?

A house for us in our generation is significantly more difficult than it ought to be. That is something I used to want to do as a child and the older I got the more impossible it seemed. It is something I would like to do if I can manage it without having to spend 30+ years paying the thing off. I have an appreciation for wanting to teach English too. Solid goals.

I used to struggle a lot with deciding what was worth doing since I don't have a reliable emotional compass to guide me. Recently it's been helpful to measure within the limitations of life and trying to find an ideal there. For instance, I will never be 5kgs but I will also never be 500kgs. As long as I exist I am required to be a number between those two. Depending on what I need my body to do, some of those numbers are going to be better than others. Once I know what that is it just makes sense to go in that direction. It really doesn't have anything to do with joy or desire.

I'm hoping anyone else with anhedonia or atypical emotions can contribute or use this thread as a resource to help them function better despite the setback.

Your story starts at a younger age than mine does. The short version is really just that I gave up trying to die. Life is never as hopeful for me than it is after I lose everything and I have no other choice.

The longer version is I tried killing myself a few times by my mid teens and was hospitalized. No idea how I survived after drinking poison but that was the fool proof method so when that failed I really didn't have a backup plan. Some years went by after that just having nothing to lose. By the time I turned 20 I was ready to go again. That time I thought it would be a kindness to tell my parents first. My father called me evil and guilt kept me around that time. I had a glimpse at a semi-respectable life but I'm going to skip some details as it exhausts me to recall everything although I'd like to be helpful and share. After my last bout of failed attempts I just realized that I had nothing left. I was completely isolated socially, out of money, no ties to life whatsoever and by an odd turn I remembered how easy life is for me. As in the functional aspects. I don't make a mess of my living space, I can take care of myself, being alone isn't torture for me, regular exercise is not a challenge, etc. Everything that isn't social that is. Socializing and bureaucracy are the banes of existence.
This person thinks I'm the devil because I didn't want to hug them, that person doesn't like me because he thinks I'm his competition. I can't do this thing because I don't have this piece of paper which I need to make a phone call to this department about and then fill out this form and upload it to this website and I'm sorry but how was I supposed to know any of this again?
I digress.
I was a blank slate again. There are a lot of things people really struggle with that are effortless for me, and there are things that I struggle with that are effortless for other people. Recovery for me was just having this blank canvas of a life to start over and maybe if I can figure out the challenging part I can be comfortable and let myself expire naturally.

What are the rules you're having to follow for recovery? If you're giving up because there are too many of them perhaps you can evaluate what the core pillars of your recovery are and focus on those instead of being overwhelmed by this great long list.

I am indeed! My preferred genre is narrative history (non-fiction) though. The most recent novel I read was Dostoevsky's The House of the Dead.

Narrative history: I can't say it's my most read genre. And I do find a lot of value in fiction. The last non-fiction book I read this year was Etiquette in Society by Emily Post. Contrasting the simplicity of the social rules in that book with the ambiguity of the individuality of today was quite revealing. I do intend to get into Dostoevsky this year. He's been on my list for quite some time and I already have Crime and Punishment waiting. I'm already made it though a bunch of the English classics I've been meaning to get to.

Besides reading, is there anything else you've made a part of your life in recovery despite the title of this thread?

 

[SecretDissociation]

It's unfortunate that therapy didn't work out for you. Would you consider trying it again if the therapist wasn't a man?

A house for us in our generation is significantly more difficult than it ought to be. That is something I used to want to do as a child and the older I got the more impossible it seemed. It is something I would like to do if I can manage it without having to spend 30+ years paying the thing off. I have an appreciation for wanting to teach English too. Solid goals.

I used to struggle a lot with deciding what was worth doing since I don't have a reliable emotional compass to guide me. Recently it's been helpful to measure within the limitations of life and trying to find an ideal there. For instance, I will never be 5kgs but I will also never be 500kgs. As long as I exist I am required to be a number between those two. Depending on what I need my body to do, some of those numbers are going to be better than others. Once I know what that is it just makes sense to go in that direction. It really doesn't have anything to do with joy or desire.

I'm hoping anyone else with anhedonia or atypical emotions can contribute or use this thread as a resource to help them function better despite the setback.

Your story starts at a younger age than mine does. The short version is really just that I gave up trying to die. Life is never as hopeful for me than it is after I lose everything and I have no other choice.

The longer version is I tried killing myself a few times by my mid teens and was hospitalized. No idea how I survived after drinking poison but that was the fool proof method so when that failed I really didn't have a backup plan. Some years went by after that just having nothing to lose. By the time I turned 20 I was ready to go again. That time I thought it would be a kindness to tell my parents first. My father called me evil and guilt kept me around that time. I had a glimpse at a semi-respectable life but I'm going to skip some details as it exhausts me to recall everything although I'd like to be helpful and share. After my last bout of failed attempts I just realized that I had nothing left. I was completely isolated socially, out of money, no ties to life whatsoever and by an odd turn I remembered how easy life is for me. As in the functional aspects. I don't make a mess of my living space, I can take care of myself, being alone isn't torture for me, regular exercise is not a challenge, etc. Everything that isn't social that is. Socializing and bureaucracy are the banes of existence.
This person thinks I'm the devil because I didn't want to hug them, that person doesn't like me because he thinks I'm his competition. I can't do this thing because I don't have this piece of paper which I need to make a phone call to this department about and then fill out this form and upload it to this website and I'm sorry but how was I supposed to know any of this again?
I digress.
I was a blank slate again. There are a lot of things people really struggle with that are effortless for me, and there are things that I struggle with that are effortless for other people. Recovery for me was just having this blank canvas of a life to start over and maybe if I can figure out the challenging part I can be comfortable and let myself expire naturally.

What are the rules you're having to follow for recovery? If you're giving up because there are too many of them perhaps you can evaluate what the core pillars of your recovery are and focus on those instead of being overwhelmed by this great long list.

Narrative history: I can't say it's my most read genre. And I do find a lot of value in fiction. The last non-fiction book I read this year was Etiquette in Society by Emily Post. Contrasting the simplicity of the social rules in that book with the ambiguity of the individuality of today was quite revealing. I do intend to get into Dostoevsky this year. He's been on my list for quite some time and I already have Crime and Punishment waiting. I'm already made it though a bunch of the English classics I've been meaning to get to.

Besides reading, is there anything else you've made a part of your life in recovery despite the title of this thread?

I'd consider trying again if it wasn't a man, wasn't DBT, and if the therapist was understanding and patient.

And yeah, the current climate doesn't help with reaching some of these long-term goals.

I see that how you decide thing has a sliding scale with some acceptable deviation. I think that's a good way to go. I think the way I choose things have a little nuance to them that I can find difficult to explain. It's more like, I choose whatever is most efficient. For instance, I am at university, because the most efficient way to get money and also exceed further in life, is to go through university. And that is my version of efficient. Or for instance, I decided to buy chocolate today, because it would be efficient to eat something than eat nothing even if I will feel horrible, because if I'll feel horrible either way, then I'll choose the option that atleast has some balance. I can't use your analogy of weight though! I have an eating disorder so I can't apply it to that thinking.

I sometimes give up on dying, but at times, it is not worth the stress and trouble of living to give up dying. I share the same sentiment with friends, for example, sometimes it is nice, and sometimes it is a pain in the neck. Too diplomatic, you do this, I do this but then I do this and I do more of this and you don't reciprocate back. It has a lot of unwritten rules that I sometimes just can't wrap my head around. I prefer the solitude. I've had people that were weird with me because I don't like touch, truly a weird thing.

I wish recovery for me was a blank state. I seem to have a really dirty grimy slate that needs scrubbing, and pressure washing, and airing and heat treatment and polishing and the rest.

For recovery, it was a lot of things like, commit to not self-harming, try these TIPP skills, which I tried before, and if it doesn't work you're doing it wrong even though I've done them many times, and commit to no suicide attempts, and commit to playing with soap, and commit to listening to me, your therapist and answer these questions about how you feel and no, I won't take no as a valid answer, even though it is very valid and I need help trying to identify what I'm feeling, instead of being told that I'm not putting my all in.

It was kind of like being put in front of a challenge course and being told what every single stage of the challenge will be without seeing the layout of the course.

I think because I'm still grieving too, and the therapy didn't want to focus on that, I just couldn't do it. Also, the therapy was very push-backy and reminded me of the way my father treated me, so I felt worse afterwards. My goals for recovery are a bit skewed right now because I just want to ctb following my friends death.

And also, I am glad you are here today. It must have sucked not having a back-up plan after nearly dying. I think I know how it feels, a little bit atleast.

 

[Jealous Blackheart]

I'd consider trying again if it wasn't a man, wasn't DBT, and if the therapist was understanding and patient.

And yeah, the current climate doesn't help with reaching some of these long-term goals.

I see that how you decide thing has a sliding scale with some acceptable deviation. I think that's a good way to go. I think the way I choose things have a little nuance to them that I can find difficult to explain. It's more like, I choose whatever is most efficient. For instance, I am at university, because the most efficient way to get money and also exceed further in life, is to go through university. And that is my version of efficient. Or for instance, I decided to buy chocolate today, because it would be efficient to eat something than eat nothing even if I will feel horrible, because if I'll feel horrible either way, then I'll choose the option that atleast has some balance. I can't use your analogy of weight though! I have an eating disorder so I can't apply it to that thinking.

I sometimes give up on dying, but at times, it is not worth the stress and trouble of living to give up dying. I share the same sentiment with friends, for example, sometimes it is nice, and sometimes it is a pain in the neck. Too diplomatic, you do this, I do this but then I do this and I do more of this and you don't reciprocate back. It has a lot of unwritten rules that I sometimes just can't wrap my head around. I prefer the solitude. I've had people that were weird with me because I don't like touch, truly a weird thing.

I wish recovery for me was a blank state. I seem to have a really dirty grimy slate that needs scrubbing, and pressure washing, and airing and heat treatment and polishing and the rest.

For recovery, it was a lot of things like, commit to not self-harming, try these TIPP skills, which I tried before, and if it doesn't work you're doing it wrong even though I've done them many times, and commit to no suicide attempts, and commit to playing with soap, and commit to listening to me, your therapist and answer these questions about how you feel and no, I won't take no as a valid answer, even though it is very valid and I need help trying to identify what I'm feeling, instead of being told that I'm not putting my all in.

It was kind of like being put in front of a challenge course and being told what every single stage of the challenge will be without seeing the layout of the course.

I think because I'm still grieving too, and the therapy didn't want to focus on that, I just couldn't do it. Also, the therapy was very push-backy and reminded me of the way my father treated me, so I felt worse afterwards. My goals for recovery are a bit skewed right now because I just want to ctb following my friends death.

And also, I am glad you are here today. It must have sucked not having a back-up plan after nearly dying. I think I know how it feels, a little bit atleast.

Apologies, I should have used another example or a trigger warning. It's not something I've related to but I have technically been diagnosed with an eating disorder as well. It's not entirely unfounded, I just don't think it's severe enough to be considered disordered when I don't struggle with it the way people with actual disordered eating do. The principle of defining a range within reasonable expectation and narrowing into the value that serves you the most remains. The formula can be applied to anything. It doesn't have to be used in the context I put it in.

Isn't it strange how upset people can get about you not wanting to be touched? Did I miss the memo? I didn't know I owed anyone my body but they sure act like it.

The scrubbing and, in short, purifying that you're referring to? That's what my failed attempts did for me. The whole process of purging everything, settling all of my affairs, and preparing to die, and then executing the method is what cleared the canvas. It's the unexpectedly still being alive after and needing to find some way to live again that's the blank page. Surely it's achievable without actually attempting? Maybe there's something liberating in releasing everything as if you were going to die without actually planning to die. I wonder if any research has been done on this.

The way you're describing some of your experiences with therapy make it sound like the professionals you were seeing had no idea what they were doing or they didn't care. Like they were following some handbook. How can you expect someone who struggles with articulating emotions to just know what they're feeling? If someone is grieving, how can you just breeze past that like it's not a relevant factor in their recovery process and just expect them to get better? It doesn't make any sense. I'm emotionally incompetent and even I know that. If anything it suggests that you're bound to have a better experience with another professional since the bar is so low.

Did your friend talk to you about ctb before they did? Were you friends online? Did you know them in person? Did they know that you wanted to and did they support your journey to recovery?