Fuck toxic positivity, here are some facts

[Oblivion]

I' really tired of some people spreading bullshit ideas around that are not true, so here are some cruel life facts.

1- Your self worth is determined by others, you are not an island, you are a social creature.
No, if society deems you worthless then you are indeed worthless, if you are not valued by others then you have no worth.

2- Your happiness comes from other people, you are not an island.
No, you won't find happiness within, you are a social creature, if you can't form healthy relationships with other people then you will always be miserable and feel like something is missing.

these two that i can remember now, there are more but can't remember them. feel free to add any.

 

[Forgettable]

Agree with every word

 

[hikikomorizombie]

i both agree & disagree w the 1st one. the 2nd one i 100% agree with & am living (unfortunately) proof of, lol.

the only positivity bs i see all the time & have always hated, are the typical Hallmark card sentiments/platitudes. 'It gets better', 'what if there's something/some1 amazing in ur future you'll miss out on', 'life is worth living u just need to persevere', 'every1 feels this way at times it's what it means to be a human', etc. the same regurgitated meaningless drivel i've had to hear since i was 14. sad to see it's wormed it's way onto SaSu too.

 

[Reuthry]

Here goes mine:
Even if you succeed one thing in life, achieve something that you value, there is a high chance that you are going to see tons of failures and will be sad again when you don't go into "blindly positive mode". With a rational look, life doesn't really worth living, unless you somehow love living so much that you can ignore things happening around.

 

[GreenMarsh]

I can see how you feel this way, there's certainly a truth to the cynicism, but I guess I want to elaborate a bit:

On the first point, it is true that society can determine the perceived value of an individual, or even a group of people at large. There are countless historical examples of this, and even modern ones as well. In extreme cases, lawmakers can even outright determine the value of one's own life as part of a group. Nonetheless, that is not to say that one's SELF worth is determine solely by outside influences. It is possible to hold a positive view of your own self regardless of what society says about you. Not easy by any means, but it has been done.

On the second point, yes, and also no. It's true that as satisfied as I can be sometimes, there is an irreplaceable happiness to be found within others which I've been longing for my whole life. However, there is also various types of happiness that cannot be provided by peers which I've found to be just as irreplaceable. The social aspect is just one part of the hierarchy of needs, not the whole thing. Even people with strong social networks have dissatisfactions and longings, after all. It'd even go as far as to say that being lonely for so long has provided me with invaluable insight on how to appreciate the few things that can make me feel happy even without people. I hope I'll find what I'm looking for someday.

 

[Oblivion]

It is possible to hold a positive view of your own self regardless of what society says about you. Not easy by any means, but it has been done.

Yes, that's called being delusional

 

[DesperateOne]

Agree with everything. If you aren't socialized properly since childhood or if you isolate yourself and miss out on foundational developmental experiences in your society/culture you are pretty much done for.

You will always be playing a catch up game while peers race ahead. You will always be deemed as that weirdo. People will hang out with you when they are desperate for social interaction, but will leave as soon as they find someone that is on their level.

It's unfair and it's sad that there is no other way, but that's just how humans are wired unfortunately.

 

[GreenMarsh]

Yes, that's called being delusional

There are many societies, and even family members of my own, that would shun me or belittle me because of my sexual orientation. Nonetheless, I hold myself in high regard, at least compared to them. Why then is this considered delusional, but not them, who irrationally attack me as a person? I know I've done nothing wrong

 

[Oblivion]

There are many societies, and even family members of my own, that would shun me or belittle me because of my sexual orientation. Nonetheless, I hold myself in high regard, at least compared to them. Why then is this considered delusional, but not them, who irrationally attack me as a person? I know I've done nothing wrong

This is a whole different case, out of bigotry and blind hate

 

[GreenMarsh]

This is a whole different case, out of bigotry and blind hate

Could you elaborate a bit on the first point, then? I just want to get a clear picture of what you mean

 

[Oblivion]

Could you elaborate a bit on the first point, then? I just want to get a clear picture of what you mean

to be shunned and hated for being different is not an indication of the absence of self worth, that's just stupid, you can find that self worth within others that are not bigots

 

[sorlox]

gosh, i hate that "social creature" thing inside. My mindset now is mostly misantropic/sociophobic, i hate every person around me and i'm afraid of people (expect of few close friends). Yet, deep into my soul, i want to be social. That's tearing me apart, that's why i suffer. And that makes me to speak bad to my friends, unintentionally. Why am i such a monster?

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I agree with all this. No matter how much I try to hide it, I just can't. Those are two brutal facts for sure. But I suppose that I should give my own: for some people, no matter how much you try (and depending on how severe the goal is), it will never be enough.

Alternatively, you don't always get rewarded proportionally to the effort that you put in but rather that you get rewarded with less

 

[Little_Suzy]

Those are so funny. lol


"Home is where the heart is."

Your home, is where you pay the rent; here, you don't pay for sh!t. GTFO!

 

[Forever Sleep]

The first one I agree with. Just practically wise- if you can't provide a service that society wants and will pay for- it won't like you very much.

The second, I'm not sure. Maybe I would be happier if I had lots of healthy social relationships but I wouldn't say I am unhappy because I am alone. I rarely feel lonely. I actually will avoid social situations where I can. I realise that isn't normal though! Still- I wouldn't say the source of my unhappiness is being alone. I guess maybe I'm not at the point where I feel like I can't form relationships though. It's more that I've learnt not to trust people!

 

[Tokugawa_Yoshinobu]

Your post is very thought provoking and I have largely come to the same conclusions myself.
Your first statement rings true to me due to how human societies developed in the first place and how humans have lived for most of history: if you didn't interact with or help others you would die of starvation, be killed by a wild animal e.t.c and so pro-social behavior is highly prefered or selected for. Then it becomes easier to understand if you have no worth in other people's mind then you lack worth in general. Collectivism for survival reasons was and still is the norm for society and if you fail to deliever what is really the point?

I realize that you are an individual too and can ignore what others think of you, especially if you're older and have a secure position in life (a family, a job e.t.c) but that doesn't distract from the fact that humans are meant to be social beings. I have become very misanthropic over the years but that is not very natural. It would be more common if it were. Suicidality too isn't very common because most people have succeeded in sociality and some like us on this forum clearly haven't.

Same goes for happiness. But I'd argue happiness without other people is easier to attain than worth. Pleasure isn't the same as satisfaction and content. This is the breaking point for most people and one of the biggest reasons for suicidality: you could be happy but never content. Maybe some suicidal people couldn't even achieve short-lived joy but I think many can at least appreciate some things before wanting to eventually depart from this Earth.

I have another point to add myself:

3 - It's not possible for societies to fully socially accept suicide because doing so would mean accepting a self-annihilating premise and the drive for survival is too strong in most people, even the suicidal themselves, so it would never become fully realized or integrated. While in the modern west at least suicide is no longer seen as sin or crime but functionally speaking it's seen as a crime against the very fabric of society because to question the validity of life is to question everything that derives from it and is thus seen as a thought crime against ideas of human worth. And that is why suicide prevention is so dishonest in it's framing and why you are locked up if found for attempting suicide.

Also all forms of suicide prevention are a type of social and population control because everything that goes against the idea of inherent worth of life is seen as evil. Despite this there were some example historically of "sanctioned suicide" that were acceptable in some circumstances. But it's also all social control because so-called honor suicides were just a way to re-affirm societal conventions anyway.

 

[Abyssal]

I disagree, but it's not like I'm capable of making myself happy to live either.

When I'm doing well, I really don't care what others think. I am happy and nothing can bring me down. I think that attitude attracts others to talk as well, not the other way around. It starts with personal happiness and results in a community. From there it's a cycle of happiness until I either get triggered into depressed or it comes naturally and I shut everyone out.

As for the first point, self worth is subjective. I don't really believe in self worth to be honest, I just kinda exist and go with the flow.

 

[sewycidial]

I' really tired of some people spreading bullshit ideas around that are not true, so here are some cruel life facts.

1- Your self worth is determined by others, you are not an island, you are a social creature.
No, if society deems you worthless then you are indeed worthless, if you are not valued by others then you have no worth.

2- Your happiness comes from other people, you are not an island.
No, you won't find happiness within, you are a social creature, if you can't form healthy relationships with other people then you will always be miserable and feel like something is missing.

these two that i can remember now, there are more but can't remember them. feel free to add any.

Agreed

 

[CPY]

1)Freedom and democracy in most countries are lies or they are upheld only for normal high functioning members of society

2)Love doesn't exist it all come down to physical attraction

3)Hard work only gets you so much in life, luck and genetics are vital

this are ones that comes to my mind

 

[Morte]

If you depend on others to be happy you are essentially fucked, because people will hurt you much more than help.
I don't believe in lasting happiness, but I believe in a state when there is less suffering and the best way to achieve it is learning to be content with yourself and not care about what society thinks. It's ironic that people who think like you are the loneliest, because they hope to find peace with others, when they can't even find it in themselves.

 

[NoFutureAnymore]

Hear, hear!
This is why I feel so bad an not happy about (social) anxiety destroying my life.

 

[Wake]

I' really tired of some people spreading bullshit ideas around that are not true, so here are some cruel life facts.

1- Your self worth is determined by others, you are not an island, you are a social creature.
No, if society deems you worthless then you are indeed worthless, if you are not valued by others then you have no worth.

2- Your happiness comes from other people, you are not an island.
No, you won't find happiness within, you are a social creature, if you can't form healthy relationships with other people then you will always be miserable and feel like something is missing.

these two that i can remember now, there are more but can't remember them. feel free to add any.

I completely disagree. With all due respect but I think that you are the only one in control of what your life means if I think getting enough money to live independently is success then this is success, if I think finding my love interest and continue me life with her is success then it is a successful life.

That is why I think success can never come from society because their will always be standards that you might not follow for example society might think that making tons of money, getting laid, and becoming famous is the ultimate success but I might just strive for living a peaceful life although yes it would seem unsuccessful in their eyes but in mine I actually made it and that is what matters

a 100 years from now all of us will disappear and be replaced by other people so why should I care about the opinions of whom that will not last and only care about themselves just like me unless you are slave to it

 

[Hotsackage]

Considering we're not responsible for our biological make up, or kind of thoughts we produce, people who think about self worth are delusional

 

[Oblivion]

if I think finding my love interest and continue me life with her is success then it is a successful life.

you just explained water with water lol, you are worthy to her then, but not to society at large, but still worthy to someone, ofcourse no one can be worthy to 100% of the people

 

[almondmilk]

100% agree !!! it's like the universal cure for everything is "self love" which in my opinion is a toxic concept

 

[Wake]

you just explained water with water lol, you are worthy to her then, but not to society at large, but still worthy to someone, ofcourse no one can be worthy to 100% of the people

You don't get what I said, do you. I said find love if anything it's a selfish act where I want to be at peace with myself am not trying to appeal to anybody's dreams except myself

 

[Abyssal]

Love doesn't exist it all come down to physical attraction

Then I'm a freak of nature I guess. Humans are so ugly but I am very drawn to a kind heart.

 

[BlessedBeTheFlame]

1- Your self worth is determined by others, you are not an island, you are a social creature.
No, if society deems you worthless then you are indeed worthless, if you are not valued by others then you have no worth.

2- Your happiness comes from other people, you are not an island.
No, you won't find happiness within, you are a social creature, if you can't form healthy relationships with other people then you will always be miserable and feel like something is missing.

Both of these are 100% true. I don't see why people try so hard to deny them. If everyone wants me to kill myself and I simply force my viewpoint of wanting to live onto them, then frankly I'm just selfish to them. If I have no worth to others, I just have no worth.

 

[breezeboy]

You have to remember that the vast majority of people are brainwashed and programmed.
"Sheep" is the common term. The number of them on this site is disappointing to see.
They want you to conform to all these ridiculous ways of thinking and doing things.

When you are young your mind is a sponge and you are easily indoctrinated.
It takes years to undo the damage caused and to relearn everything you were taught to believe and accept growing up.

Even once you're aware that you've been deceived it's hard to know where to start learning the truth or how to find the truth. The deception and planning goes back hundreds/thousands of years.

I respect Ops opinions.

 

[KuriGohan&Kamehameha]

There is also the harsh truth that a person's self esteem is undoubtedly shaped by their surroundings and that not being part of a tribe or group, so that one may experience a sense of belonging, is disastrous for one's happiness and feelings of worth. If someone is consistently outcast and made to feel different, no amount of self affirming really makes up for this deficit in connection with other people.

Being autistic is a curse, knowing no matter how hard you try any social interaction you have comes off as being a well rehearsed puppet, not understanding how other people naturally behave and how to fit in with them. I would guess there are probably a great deal of other autistic people here, who experience such profound isolation simply because we are different.