Free will

[Dustinsd]

Is there such a thing as free will or is it all pre planned ?

 

[SVEN]

Depends which theologian you ask. I'd say yes, but then I'm neither fatalistic nor calvinistic.

 

[Reflection]

I personally don't believe in free will, I subscribe to determinism.

 

[Eventually_An_Angel]

i didnt even know will was in jail

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

From a physical point of view, free will can only be an illusion. We believe in causality, determination and maybe coincidence on quantum level. I see no room for a free will. But it is impossible to know the future, the universe is like a computer simulation and you cannot shortcut a simulation.

 

[Marco77]

There is no free will. The Ego is not master in its own house.

He translated very badly!

 

[Praying 4 a Miracle]

I definitely believe we have free will. That's what makes us human, and separates us from the animals. Animals are instinctive, or in other words they do what their instincts tell them to do. We humans have some of that, but we also have the ability to override our animalistic instincts, if we so choose. That's why we're held accountable for our actions and decisions by the legal system.

 

[PhDone]

So it won't be our decision or 'fault' if we ctb?

 

[KillingPain267]

Not absolute free will, but within contexts we do have free will. On earth a human cannot freely fly due to gravity, but within the parameters of air flow, we can freely use technology to fly with the help of machines.

 

[divinemistress36]

According to those who have had NDEs we have both free will and pre planned

 

[Forever Sleep]

Could we suicide without it? Do you suppose some people are destined to suicide? Others are destined to commit murder or rape?

I think how we behave can be strongly influnced by our genes, upbringing, experiences but I personally believe that we get to have final say. I suppose you could argue that this 'we' is a product of its circumstances too.

But, I don't like the argument we don't have free will because I think it reduces all responsibility- it's lazy basically. I think a criminal should be held accountable for hurting someone in the majority of cases. Not just blame it on some outside force they were powerless to resist.

Why do criminals attempt to conceal their crimes and cover their tracts if they are so influenced by impulse? Impulsiveness surely doesn't equate with careful planing. Trying to cover something up reveals that you know you've done something wrong. Planning to do something terrible but try to get away with it again means you already know this thing is bad.

That's conscious level thinking- then it's a choice- free will on whether they do it or not. I find it very hard to believe that some people literally have no other choice but to murder or rape or molest a child. There are plenty of other things they could have done- including- turning themselves over to the authorities if they knew they were that out of control.

 

[cohomology]

I definitely believe in free will even though I'm a physicalist. To me free will is a physical/biological phenomenon like any other.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

I definitely believe we have free will. That's what makes us human, and separates us from the animals. Animals are instinctive, or in other words they do what their instincts tell them to do. We humans have some of that, but we also have the ability to override our animalistic instincts, if we so choose. That's why we're held accountable for our actions and decisions by the legal system.

Of course we are animals. The homo sapiens sapiens (human beeing) is a subspecies of Homo sapiens. And animals including us are bio-robots designed by evolution. If I had the task to develop a robot with a free will I would not know how to start and I would ask my client whether this is a good idea. Whenever I had the impression that a maschine (my car or my computer) has a free will it was an unpleasant experience.

Could we suicide without it? Do you suppose some people are destined to suicide? Others are destined to commit murder or rape?

I think how we behave can be strongly influnced by our genes, upbringing, experiences but I personally believe that we get to have final say. I suppose you could argue that this 'we' is a product of its circumstances too.

But, I don't like the argument we don't have free will because I think it reduces all responsibility- it's lazy basically. I think a criminal should be held accountable for hurting someone in the majority of cases. Not just blame it on some outside force they were powerless to resist.

Why do criminals attempt to conceal their crimes and cover their tracts if they are so influenced by impulse? Impulsiveness surely doesn't equate with careful planing. Trying to cover something up reveals that you know you've done something wrong. Planning to do something terrible but try to get away with it again means you already know this thing is bad.

That's conscious level thinking- then it's a choice- free will on whether they do it or not. I find it very hard to believe that some people literally have no other choice but to murder or rape or molest a child. There are plenty of other things they could have done- including- turning themselves over to the authorities if they knew they were that out of control.

We could not survive without the illusion of a free will, it is a result of evolution. I alway act as if I had a free will, thought deep inside I know it is an illusion. Have you ever tried to track how you get an idea or an stimulus? I have the impression it comes out of the blue or as it is called today, the unconscious.

Concerning suicide, at least we don´t have to feel any guilt.

 

[LunarLight]

That's a huge question and I don't think we possibly can answer it for sure, but I'd tend to subscribe to determinism.

 

[chester]

According to those who have had NDEs we have both free will and pre planned

I'm thinking something similar. Metaphysics aside, we could say the two options aren't mutually exclusive. On the one hand, we're faced with many choices in life when the decision is ours only. On the other hand, each decision is a result of a logic process based on experience, goals, emotions, preferences, etc. Think of it as of a computer program, where we have multiple input values and from them we get an output, which is a decision we make. It's an algorithm weighing all the pros and cons, risks and benefits. So could we say we're just witnessing a process that's happening on its own? Would this mean our will is not free and we're merely observers of a process? To me, free will is the possibility of the decision making process to happen and for one to be able to act based on it. Otherwise how would we define true free will?

 

[PhDone]

Of course we are animals. The homo sapiens sapiens (human beeing) is a subspecies of Homo sapiens. And animals including us are bio-robots designed by evolution. If I had the task to develop a robot with a free will I would not know how to start and I would ask my client whether this is a good idea. Whenever I had the impression that a maschine (my car or my computer) has a free will it was an unpleasant experience.


We could not survive without the illusion of a free will, it is a result of evolution. I alway act as if I had a free will, thought deep inside I know it is an illusion. Have you ever tried to track how you get an idea or an stimulus? I have the impression it comes out of the blue or as it is called today, the unconscious.

Concerning suicide, at least we don´t have to feel any guilt.

Thats very much non-dualist teachings, that apparent 'decisions' are actually arising into conciousness from our unconscious.

 

[Innereye]

Nonsensical concept. B can't come before A in any observable context.

 

[Darkover]

deterministic with limited choice we have the ability to choose between things

 

[nihilistic_dragon]

I tend to mostly agree with Robert Sapolsky - there is no such thing as free will.

 

[Praying 4 a Miracle]

There would be absolutely no point whatsoever in having a legal system at all, if we did not possess free will. If all we're doing is running through some pre-programmed destiny, then there would be absolutely no point to punishing people for crimes. It would not be a deterrent and therefore would not exist.

Also, if people could just use the excuse that they are genetically predispositioned, or drugs or the devil made them do it, then everybody would just get off scot-free for everything, and again there would be no point in having a legal system at all.

We have the ability to override all of this, including our animalistic instincts, and that is why we are held accountable for our actions and decisions.

The only instances where people are not held accountable for their actions, are if they plead insanity, but this legal defense is only used in less than 1% of all criminal cases. And only one quarter of these are actually successful and win their case. It is extremely difficult to use insanity as a legal defense, because juries know that the vast majority of us (99.75%) have enough will power (free will) to be able to control and be held responsible for our actions.

 

[doneforlife]

Could we suicide without it? Do you suppose some people are destined to suicide? Others are destined to commit murder or rape?

I think how we behave can be strongly influnced by our genes, upbringing, experiences but I personally believe that we get to have final say. I suppose you could argue that this 'we' is a product of its circumstances too.

But, I don't like the argument we don't have free will because I think it reduces all responsibility- it's lazy basically. I think a criminal should be held accountable for hurting someone in the majority of cases. Not just blame it on some outside force they were powerless to resist.

Why do criminals attempt to conceal their crimes and cover their tracts if they are so influenced by impulse? Impulsiveness surely doesn't equate with careful planing. Trying to cover something up reveals that you know you've done something wrong. Planning to do something terrible but try to get away with it again means you already know this thing is bad.

That's conscious level thinking- then it's a choice- free will on whether they do it or not. I find it very hard to believe that some people literally have no other choice but to murder or rape or molest a child. There are plenty of other things they could have done- including- turning themselves over to the authorities if they knew they were that out of control.

The "I" is definitely a product of environment, external influence, upbringing. So the justification behind any "act" for sure depends on that component of "I". Then there is the self . What we call soul . 2 people under exact same environment, influence and upbringing still differ in their "act". That difference comes from "the real self" I e the soul . I am not 100 % sure , but my observation of the world tends to agree on this. Let's take an example. In Western world , while marrying, if you are still a virgin , people think there is something wrong with you. The pressure to not be a virgin , the pressure to have a bf/gf/partner is so high , that not having one puts you in the list of outcast . In the eastern world , it's the exact opposite. If you are not a virgin , if you have had any kind of relationship before marriage, you are deemed to be problematic, shameless..you will be outcast from society. Now, some(most) people born into such environment deem their daughters to be the flag bearer of respect and honor. What they basically do is kill the daughter who has a bf. It's the norm. Look up for honor killing. Now , even if one has free will , a lot of decisions is an outcome of env + influence+ upbringing. In the above example, if a father chooses not to kill , that decision might come from "the real self" or the soul. I think we are in what we call the "restricted free will" zone ..lol .

There would be absolutely no point whatsoever in having a legal system at all, if we did not possess free will. If all we're doing is running through some pre-programmed destiny, then there would be absolutely no point to punishing people for crimes. It would not be a deterrent and therefore would not exist.

Also, if people could just use the excuse that they are genetically predispositioned, or drugs or the devil made them do it, then everybody would just get off scot-free for everything, and again there would be no point in having a legal system at all.

We have the ability to override all of this, including our animalistic instincts, and that is why we are held accountable for our actions and decisions.

We are in a continuous state of receiving consequences of our action and creating new action ( or what we call karma). So a part of our lives are pre determined (the consequences part) and the other part is free will (the new action part). In Hinduism it's called as "Sanchit karma" and " prarabdh karma". Now the new actions are again partly free will , because we are all confined in some way or the other. So all in all life is a mix of both . People say , the parts that are predetermined are the one's which you have no control on. Like which family you are born into. When will you be born. Birth , death , parents are all predetermined. But your decision to have a cooked meal at home or go outdoors is free will.

 

[dirtscooter]

Theres a good book called 'Free Will' by Sam Harris its a pretty good read

 

[Forever Sleep]

The "I" is definitely a product of environment, external influence, upbringing. So the justification behind any "act" for sure depends on that component of "I". Then there is the self . What we call soul . 2 people under exact same environment, influence and upbringing still differ in their "act". That difference comes from "the real self" I e the soul . I am not 100 % sure , but my observation of the world tends to agree on this. Let's take an example. In Western world , while marrying, if you are still a virgin , people think there is something wrong with you. The pressure to not be a virgin , the pressure to have a bf/gf/partner is so high , that not having one puts you in the list of outcast . In the eastern world , it's the exact opposite. If you are not a virgin , if you have had any kind of relationship before marriage, you are deemed to be problematic, shameless..you will be outcast from society. Now, some(most) people born into such environment deem their daughters to be the flag bearer of respect and honor. What they basically do is kill the daughter who has a bf. It's the norm. Look up for honor killing. Now , even if one has free will , a lot of decisions is an outcome of env + influence+ upbringing. In the above example, if a father chooses not to kill , that decision might come from "the real self" or the soul. I think we are in what we call the "restricted free will" zone ..lol .

We are in a continuous state of receiving consequences of our action and creating new action ( or what we call karma). So a part of our lives are pre determined (the consequences part) and the other part is free will (the new action part). In Hinduism it's called as "Sanchit karma" and " prarabdh karma". Now the new actions are again partly free will , because we are all confined in some way or the other. So all in all life is a mix of both . People say , the parts that are predetermined are the one's which you have no control on. Like which family you are born into. When will you be born. Birth , death , parents are all predetermined. But your decision to have a cooked meal at home or go outdoors is free will.

I agree. We are for the most part, products of our genes, upbringing, environment.

Where does the act of suicide sit in all this though? Which culture views suicide as a reasonable thing to do? None- surely? On top of that, death is something we are biologically programmed to avoid at all cost so, we all have survival instinct to get over. Suicide is surely the ultimate defiance. Towards society, towards religion, towards our own biology.

Surely- suicide is the ultimate act of free will? You've got all of society and loved ones saying- 'Oh my God! Don't do that. Your life isn't that bad. What's more- how can you be so selfish? Or, such a coward?' There's so much push back against suicide in society and religion. And, our bodies are also saying- 'Oh my God! Don't do that! You're going to kill or maim us!' That's a huge amount to fight against. What with? Reasoning and choice- surely? Free will- no? Are all people that kill themselves maverick rebels? I doubt it. I suspect all types of people kill themselves from all sorts of different backgrounds. I doubt very many of those backgrounds taught them it was an ok thing to do.

Or, are some people destined to kill themselves? Everything in their life pushed them towards it till they had no other choice. Anyone reading this forum made the (probably reluctant) choice to not kill themselves just now. Presumably the majority of people here want to kill themselves or at least- they want their life to be over. They are willing it to be over in fact. Maybe you could argue that what stops some people but not others is intrinsic to us or, outside of our control. I don't know really. Unless, they just want to be lazy and blame all suicides on mental illness.

I'm not sure about this idea of the true self or soul. That is maybe a religious concept. In which case- can you have 'good' or 'bad' souls? People who have a fairly regular upbringing, fairly normal parents and yet, they go on to become serial killers. People who suicide. Were they always going to end up doing that? Did their soul decide that from the start? Because again- they went against just about every rule going to do it. But, if suicide lands you in the shit in most religions, wouldn't our 'souls' know better?!!

Is it possible to defy our 'programming'? Our genetic biases, our tendencies to do what we were taught, our trauma responses etc etc. Surely, it is. We don't all act on all of our impulses. People change religions. People defy religions. People defy their parents, the law. They go to jail. They reform and become inspirational figures after a life of crime. People do what makes the most sense to them at the time. It's surely a cognitive process- a decision based on a whole bunch of stuff we can't control so much. I'm not convinced that all our decisions are set in stone though. I don't know. You kind of tie yourself in knots thinking about it. Do some people knowingly do criminal acts because they have a rebellious streak in them? Or, because they have less resistance to temptation? Did they truly have no other option?

 

[doneforlife]

I agree. We are for the most part, products of our genes, upbringing, environment.

Where does the act of suicide sit in all this though? Which culture views suicide as a reasonable thing to do? None- surely? On top of that, death is something we are biologically programmed to avoid at all cost so, we all have survival instinct to get over. Suicide is surely the ultimate defiance. Towards society, towards religion, towards our own biology.

Surely- suicide is the ultimate act of free will? You've got all of society and loved ones saying- 'Oh my God! Don't do that. Your life isn't that bad. What's more- how can you be so selfish? Or, such a coward?' There's so much push back against suicide in society and religion. And, our bodies are also saying- 'Oh my God! Don't do that! You're going to kill or maim us!' That's a huge amount to fight against. What with? Reasoning and choice- surely? Free will- no? Are all people that kill themselves maverick rebels? I doubt it. I suspect all types of people kill themselves from all sorts of different backgrounds. I doubt very many of those backgrounds taught them it was an ok thing to do.

Or, are some people destined to kill themselves? Everything in their life pushed them towards it till they had no other choice. Anyone reading this forum made the (probably reluctant) choice to not kill themselves just now. Presumably the majority of people here want to kill themselves or at least- they want their life to be over. They are willing it to be over in fact. Maybe you could argue that what stops some people but not others is intrinsic to us or, outside of our control. I don't know really. Unless, they just want to be lazy and blame all suicides on mental illness.

I'm not sure about this idea of the true self or soul. That is maybe a religious concept. In which case- can you have 'good' or 'bad' souls? People who have a fairly regular upbringing, fairly normal parents and yet, they go on to become serial killers. People who suicide. Were they always going to end up doing that? Did their soul decide that from the start? Because again- they went against just about every rule going to do it. But, if suicide lands you in the shit in most religions, wouldn't our 'souls' know better?!!

Is it possible to defy our 'programming'? Our genetic biases, our tendencies to do what we were taught, our trauma responses etc etc. Surely, it is. We don't all act on all of our impulses. People change religions. People defy religions. People defy their parents, the law. They go to jail. They reform and become inspirational figures after a life of crime. People do what makes the most sense to them at the time. It's surely a cognitive process- a decision based on a whole bunch of stuff we can't control so much. I'm not convinced that all our decisions are set in stone though. I don't know. You kind of tie yourself in knots thinking about it. Do some people knowingly do criminal acts because they have a rebellious streak in them? Or, because they have less resistance to temptation? Did they truly have no other option?

This is an interesting take. I shall not be able to take all the questions as few have pushed me to do more thinking . But I shall address few points.

We are not programmed to avoid death. We are programmed to avoid pain. There are two components of death. One is physical pain. One is to be detached from everything this realm has to offer. If one is already detached, they wouldn't have issues with the "detachment" part of death . Their only concern will be to overcome the pain. Imagine a switch in the body which can be turned on and one wouldn't feel any pain. How many in that case would continue living ? Only those who are attached to anything would.

Suicide can fall under any category. It can be a result of your actions and hence everything has happened the way it has to land you there. It can also be a new act. In case it is a new act , this action will have its own consequences.

Coming to the consequences part , it is not the act itself, but the impact of the act that carries the consequences. If you have a loving family and they are devastated because of your act , their pain and sorrow is a direct result of your act. That's why it is said , we should not be the reason of anyone's pain. But also , in Hinduism there is something called Mahasamadhi. In Jainism, there is something called Sallekhana. This is a process where people who have left their family, become monk , deeply immersed in God and spirituality and have nothing to do with materialistic world, give up food and leave this realm. It's not even called suicide. It is said they left their body (out of respect) as it is deemed that they have the power to leave the body at their own will anytime.

I think there are bad souls who can transition to good ones and vice versa. It's all about your action and intent. There was a bad person who had committed so many crimes and after a certain event , he decided to give up his crime life and start on spiritual journey. He couldn't utter God's name cause of his actions. He tried a lot but still couldn't. Then what he did was took God's name in reverse. And after chanting the Lord's name for ages and ages , one fine day he found himself completely covered with termites . Such was his devotion that he didn't even know he had got infected with termites. He is known as one of the greatest sage in Hinduism. That was an example of bad soul turning good. There is possibility of anything and everything only if your heart truly wants it.

My personal take on suicide is still oscillating like a pendulum. I am not that deeply religious to completely negate it and consider it as a sin.