Method Exsanguination via cannula needle / blood letting?

[chestnut]

I understand this method is less reliable than the ones in the resource thread and not as peaceful (coldness, lethargy etc.). Still I wanted to share it, as I think it could lead to a successful CTB. Any input from medical professionals is appreciated.

Materials:
- Thick cannula needle / intravenous catheter needle (e.g. 14G)
- Anticoagulants or blood thinners such as aspirin or heparin
- Antiseptic to use before puncturing (in case it goes wrong, don't risk an infection)
- Gloves
- Time!
- Optional: Medical tourniquet to find veins better

Catheter needles are designed to only let blood through via a loc system, so I gently removed the stopper at the end only halfway, resulting in a slow but steady drip. The thicker your needle, the faster the blood will exit from your veins ime. Cutting the plastic tube / catheter from the needle port (no experience with that) to let it flow faster is also an option. Also, it will smell like blood, a lot.

CTB will occur through hypovolemia / hypovolemic shock (HS). There are 4 stages of it.
For HS you need to loose at least 20% of blood volume. LD of blood loss is individual, I've often read 50% to two-thirds.

My experience:
I've tried this method before on my elbow vein and experienced no clotting over the whole duration of this. I took a few aspirin and consumed some alcohol beforehand. SI kicked in on the verge of unconsciousness. At this stage I could feel tachycardia slowly setting in, which felt slightly unpleasant. I got scared, removed the needle, put on a large bandaid (best use a sterile one) and was able to crawl into bed (felt incredibly dizzy). The aftereffects of this lasted 2 to 3 weeks, in which I took iron tabs and abstained from strenous activities. It's not pleasant but if you drift off into unconsciousness and took some calming meds or alcohol before, I found it not too bad (at stage two of HS).

Problems:
- Blood clotting → Solution: Anti-coagulants, blood thinners, not exposing the blood to too much air?
- It's a vein, not an artery.
- Elbows could slip inwards, stopping blood flow → Solution: Restriction of the needle arm
- Heart needs to be over the bloodletting point to let gravity do the work once the blood pressure is low. Think of how cattle is drained by hanging upside down. Sitting in an upright position helps, or ensuiring one can't fall over or is fixated (e.g. restricted on a chair or sitting in the corner part of your shower at an angle). Arm should be hanging down loosely. Also, mind body shaking, ratteling etc. before CTB
- Being rescued, HS can be reversible until CTB

 

[prototypian]

Whew. I'm not sure I would consider that one. My first thought is that it is messy unless you simply diverted it down the drain. It is true that many people have passed away through major lacerations that resulted in blood loss. I would be worried most about the method causing unconsciousness but then stopping or bei by found and having some sort of brain or organ damage. I'm not a medical doctor so I don't know if that's possible but that would be my fear.

 

[DeIetedUser4739]

What happens if you go into seizure once you pass out and the needle gets knocked out of your arm?

 

[chestnut]

What happens if you go into seizure once you pass out and the needle gets knocked out of your arm?

Good point. I could fix it with tape to the arm (like for butterfly needles you do that medically anyway) and restrict movement of my body. Any med person I asked said it's not possible for an inserted iv needle to simply fall out, so I will only worry about violent shaking / seizures.

 

[Ash]

Watching this with interest... Especially keen to hear the thoughts of any healthcare/ medical types.

Thanks, @chestnut, for taking the time to do the research after your earlier post asking about the method.

 

[willitpass]

This would be incredibly slow and as happened to you, panic would set in. A 14g is also insanely large so anyone with tiny veins would probably have a hard time doing this. A 14g is so large a nurse can get charged with assault if they use it on a patient outside of a severe trauma situation. It will hurt like an absolute bitch, which would put off a lot of people, myself included and I work in healthcare and have an extensive medical history so I'm not scared of needles. There is also the fact that most who do not have a medical background will not be able to insert an IV into themselves, especially not a 14g. Obviously some people can learn, but generally it is not an easy skill to do especially on yourself. While taking blood thinning substances could work, things like aspirin and alcohol are not general strong enough to guarantee it won't clot, especially if someone is prone to faster clotting to begin with. To allow enough blood out to kill you without it clotting on Aspirin and Jack Daniel's alone would be an impressive feat. While I wouldn't say it's impossible, I would say it is very tedious and a lot could go wrong, as well as the panic between the start of hypovolemia and the stage of unconsciousness allowing time for severe SI to kick in.

 

[Ash]

This would be incredibly slow and as happened to you, panic would set in. A 14g is also insanely large so anyone with tiny veins would probably have a hard time doing this. A 14g is so large a nurse can get charged with assault if they use it on a patient outside of a severe trauma situation. It will hurt like an absolute bitch, which would put off a lot of people, myself included and I work in healthcare and have an extensive medical history so I'm not scared of needles. There is also the fact that most who do not have a medical background will not be able to insert an IV into themselves, especially not a 14g. Obviously some people can learn, but generally it is not an easy skill to do especially on yourself. While taking blood thinning substances could work, things like aspirin and alcohol are not general strong enough to guarantee it won't clot, especially if someone is prone to faster clotting to begin with. To allow enough blood out to kill you without it clotting on Aspirin and Jack Daniel's alone would be an impressive feat. While I wouldn't say it's impossible, I would say it is very tedious and a lot could go wrong, as well as the panic between the start of hypovolemia and the stage of unconsciousness allowing time for severe SI to kick in.

Damn.

I didn't like my experience of sweating and passing out from blood loss as I wasn't prepared for it, but otherwise, in comfier conditions, this is a method I think I'd choose if only I could sort out the clotting and be able to get the right needle in the right place.

#SadFace

 

[willitpass]

Damn.

I didn't like my experience of sweating and passing out from blood loss as I wasn't prepared for it, but otherwise, in comfier conditions, this is a method I think I'd choose if only I could sort out the clotting and be able to get the right needle in the right place.

#SadFace

While I know you probably have a high pain tolerance, I will say a 14g needle is insane. It's only purpose is for people who were involved in a severe trauma like a car crash and need to be pumped with blood and fluids at an incredibly rapid rate, and even then it is rarely used for this purpose. Successfully placing one on yourself without blowing your vein would be very difficult.

 

[chestnut]

Thank you so much for your informative response.

A 14g is also insanely large so anyone with tiny veins would probably have a hard time doing this. A 14g is so large a nurse can get charged with assault if they use it on a patient outside of a severe trauma situation. It will hurt like an absolute bitch, which would put off a lot of people, myself included and I work in healthcare and have an extensive medical history so I'm not scared of needles.

14g is large and the one I used before. I've donated blood plasma before and the standard size used is 16g, so it didn't feel too different honestly. Scared if I went lower, it would clot faster.

There is also the fact that most who do not have a medical background will not be able to insert an IV into themselves, especially not a 14g. Obviously some people can learn, but generally it is not an easy skill to do especially on yourself.

Totally agree! Anyone who has a hard time getting blood drawn at the doctor's, maybe this method isn't optimal. I have prominent thick veins and had no problem finding it at an angle back then.

Do you think using heparin cream on your arm / body beforehand could prevent clotting more than just aspirin (it's OTC where I live, so I have limited options)?

Also read, blood is send from the extremities to the core organs after a certain level of blood loss occurs. How much blood loss would be possible via elbow vein in your opinion? At my last attempt I managed to draw bt. 1,2 and 1,3 liters, then SI kicked in and I stopped.

 

[DoubleUp8]

Is it possible to use this method on an artery rather than a vein? It seems that would be faster with a higher probability of death