Method Exit Bag Tightness

[iguanah]

Hi all,

Im looking to an attempt an exit bag ctb next week, im fully prepared but theres only one thing im still hazy on, the tightness of the bag. The only guidelines ive been able to find in literature or on forums are "snug but not tight & "2 finger lenghts". I certainly dont want it so loose oxygen will enter and not tight enough ill wake up braindead to a popped bag. I feel so far as its better to lean a bit tighter as the elastic cord itself could stretch to let co2 out but thats just a thought. Any experts out there who can help me walk this fine line with some knowledge. Or perhaps anyone who has failed or practiced this method. To clarify, im not using an elastic sports band, rather a elastic with a toggle so i have ability to control the tightness.

Cheers!

 

[pen]

I'd use a hose in my mouth to put the exhaled air through the bag, what you think?

 

[iguanah]

I'd use a hose in my mouth to put the exhaled air through the bag, what you think?

unfortunately i dont see that staying in mouth during unconciousness.

 

[profoundexperience]

@iguanah: What flow-rate of inert gas are you using and how are you controlling it? What type of material are you using for the bag? What is your gas & it's purity?

I have everything ~exactly as specified & did some testing with an oxygen sensor and can probably say, as long as the bag somewhat inflates the oxygen % near where one's mouth/nose is (just inches above the elastic-cinched "air gap") gets down to literally 0.0% (yes really & that surprised me) within a minute. I used a container to simulate my head/neck & "squash" most of the air out of the bag before beginning (pretty much followed all the best practices sequence... as close as I could).

Of course when my head is in there breathing, it won't quite be so good as that as inert gas "pulls" oxygen out of the bloodstream due to the differences in partial-pressure (one ends-up exhaling some oxygen the body had previously absorbed = why inert gas is so quick)... but that's already "overkill" (literally & figuratively).

I'd use a hose in my mouth to put the exhaled air through the bag, what you think?

I think that's not the standard way of doing inert gas (aka exit bag) and probably a bad idea. Sorry.

 

[iguanah]

@iguanah: What flow-rate of inert gas are you using and how are you controlling it? What type of material are you using for the bag? What is your gas & it's purity?

I have everything ~exactly as specified & did some testing with an oxygen sensor and can probably say, as long as the bag somewhat inflates the oxygen % near where one's mouth/nose is (just inches above the elastic-cinched "air gap") gets down to literally 0.0% (yes really & that surprised me) within a minute. Of course when my head is in there, it won't quite be so good as that... but that's already "overkill" (literally & figuratively).

I think that's not the standard way of doing inert gas (aka exit bag) and probably a bad idea.

i have an esc mode nitrogen click style regulator that im thinking im gonna run at 20lpm, with oxygen tubing, an 88 cubic ft tank at 2000psi, and a oven bag that i beleive is 35 x 42cm but dont recall off the top of my head. thats actually incredibly interesting & useful info, and a really substantial contribution to the exit bag community, which would actually increase the likelihood of success with this method. Ive been extremely stressed over what i expressed to you but this is a positive reaffirmation. Ive been considering an nrb mask because of reading alot of stories about people with seemingly perfect setups with the only flaw coming into mind would be bag tightness. would you reckon ill be good with a bag? Again thank you!

 

[profoundexperience]

This was the sensor I used for my testing, FYI, https://www.kkmoon.com/p-e5622.html Amzn has it for ~$120.

Is it absolutely necessary? No. But this is kinda a very critical thing to get right & it gave me a lot of confidence in my setup. The PPeH recommends using a sensor to double-check and I'm glad I did (just to reduce that particular worry).

Those oven bags (nylon) are pretty strong... doubt they often "pop"... no the gas will find that gap between one's neck and the bag first.

It sounds like our setups are very similar. Please feel free to PM/DM if you'd like to discuss more (absolutely any aspect of it)... just I'm probably ctb in ~14 days or so... so if I don't respond after that you know.

 

[Aap]

What @pen is suggesting is to put the bag on with a tube in your mouth exiting the bag. Inhale through the tube and exhale through your nose. The bag will fill up with exhaled air. Eventually, the exhaled air should start exiting the bag. This would confirm the proper tightness for testing.

 

[profoundexperience]

What @pen is suggesting is to put the bag on with a tube in your mouth exiting the bag. Inhale through the tube and exhale through your nose. The bag will fill up with exhaled air. Eventually, the exhaled air should start exiting the bag. This would confirm the proper tightness for testing.

Oh, I see... I guess one could see if they could inflate the bag with one's own efforts.

The conditions are different with an inert gas running at 15 lpm. This is at least 3x the volume that an average person can respirate per minute.

 

[Aap]

They definitely can inflate the bag given adequate time. The idea is that the tightness of the elastic should be such that eventually each expired breath results in exhaled air leaving the bag with the elastic not being so loose that the bag deflates on its own nor so tight that the bag will either pop (unlikely depending on bag makeup) or rocket off the head.

 

[iguanah]

so one thing i don't quite understand is, when your doing this method and your unconsciousness, if you breathe in say a hair of carbon dioxide, or a hair of oxygen, is it over? or would it take quite a low nitrogen environment for that to happen?

 

[profoundexperience]

your unconsciousness, if you breathe in say a hair of carbon dioxide, or a hair of oxygen, is it over?

It really depends on how much "a hair" is. Please see attached table wrt oxygen.

or would it take quite a low nitrogen environment for that to happen?

This question makes no sense to me... As in every case of using inert gas, the point is to produce an environment of very low O2 and CO2. It's never the point to produce a "low nitrogen environment".

 

[heliumornitrogen]

i have an esc mode nitrogen click style regulator that im thinking im gonna run at 20lpm, with oxygen tubing, an 88 cubic ft tank at 2000psi, and a oven bag that i beleive is 35 x 42cm but dont recall off the top of my head. thats actually incredibly interesting & useful info, and a really substantial contribution to the exit bag community, which would actually increase the likelihood of success with this method. Ive been extremely stressed over what i expressed to you but this is a positive reaffirmation. Ive been considering an nrb mask because of reading alot of stories about people with seemingly perfect setups with the only flaw coming into mind would be bag tightness. would you reckon ill be good with a bag? Again thank you!

Hi, sounds like I´m in exactly the same situation as you. I got an an escMode regulator too. I am unclear regarding tightness around neck somewhat. I attempted the method yesterday, followed all the directions meticulously, bag over head above ears, scrunch down removing oxygen in bag, open cylinder (regulator setting 15)...after 2 minutes the bag had barely filled up at all and was still crunched up, so I continued to let the gas flow in, but eventually I had to abort the attempt as the contents dial was reading half full!!

 

[iguanah]

Hi, sounds like I´m in exactly the same situation as you. I got an an escMode regulator too. I am unclear regarding tightness around neck somewhat. I attempted the method yesterday, followed all the directions meticulously, bag over head above ears, scrunch down removing oxygen in bag, open cylinder (regulator setting 15)...after 2 minutes the bag had barely filled up at all and was still crunched up, so I continued to let the gas flow in, but eventually I had to abort the attempt as the contents dial was reading half full!!

Hi, sounds like I´m in exactly the same situation as you. I got an an escMode regulator too. I am unclear regarding tightness around neck somewhat. I attempted the method yesterday, followed all the directions meticulously, bag over head above ears, scrunch down removing oxygen in bag, open cylinder (regulator setting 15)...after 2 minutes the bag had barely filled up at all and was still crunched up, so I continued to let the gas flow in, but eventually I had to abort the attempt as the contents dial was reading half full!!

do you think you may have had a leak or a regulator not connecting properly, your tank shouldn't have depleted that quickly...

 

[heliumornitrogen]

do you think you may have had a leak or a regulator not connecting properly, your tank shouldn't have depleted that quickly...

Well I checked the bag afterwards, and I didn´t hear a hissing sound coming from the regulator. I will have to purchase another cylinder and will tighten it harder with the wrench next time. I believe the bag is supposed to inflate above your head similar to a chef hat, and that wasn´t happening.

 

[iguanah]

i think that's supposed to happen as well, unfortunately like yourself im just trying to make this happen and am not as educated as others on the site.

 

[heliumornitrogen]

Yeah, I´ve been researching this for over 6 months now. It´s taken time but it has to be done right. Attention to every detail is essential.

 

[iguanah]

yes i've been researching like crazy so to hear a step as simple as the inflation of the bag failing is quite a disappointment.

Yeah, I´ve been researching this for over 6 months now. It´s taken time but it has to be done right. Attention to every detail is essential.

my only suggestions would be to insure wrench tight connections, maybe tighten your bag more, and i've heard people mention they had way better success filling the bag at 20lpm vs 15.

 

[heliumornitrogen]

yes i've been researching like crazy so to hear a step as simple as the inflation of the bag failing is quite a disappointment.

my only suggestions would be to insure wrench tight connections, maybe tighten your bag more, and i've heard people mention they had way better success filling the bag at 20lpm vs 15.

Sorry about that, I know that feeling of disappointment when someone says something you don´t want to hear, but It´s better to hear these things I guess. Its probably just me getting something wrong because plenty of other people have succeeded at this. I will definitely try filling the bag at setting 20 next time and make sure it´s really tight! I lost some of the gas in previous tests but I won´t need to do that next time round with a freshly filled cylinder.

 

[Alex Fermentopathy]

It really depends on how much "a hair" is. Please see attached table wrt oxygen.

This question makes no sense to me... As in every case of using inert gas, the point is to produce an environment of very low O2 and CO2. It's never the point to produce a "low nitrogen environment".

Regarding information on the screenshot in the quote. I wonder how I managed to reach convulstion stage (I noticed signs of convulsions when I returned to conscious), but still alive without treatment. Even had no felt headache. I mean, I tried helium method.