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BeBraveBrother

Student
Sep 5, 2020
170
Despite all of the thrashing and so on post-unconsciousness, when I read the description it sounds a lot like he was out within a minute or so of him no longer holding his breath - the articles I've seen suggest that he held his breath for two minutes (or thereabouts) and that fairly quickly after that his eyes rolled back in his head. He was probably out cold at that point (if you believe the writeup from Dignitas that was posted elsewhere), and the thrashing just...seems to be a thing. Everything else broadly lines up with the Dignitas stuff, just with the possibility of a poor gas setting or imperfect seal being at issue (and to be honest, reading the various issues they've had with executions I get the feeling that the Alabama DOC couldn't arrange a piss-up in a brewery).

But with convulsions, that has always been a mess with this sort of thing - it is very hard for an observer to tell what is post-unconsciousness and what is pre-unconsciousness if they don't know what they're looking for. If they could keep the electrodes attached reliably, brain wave readings would be quite instructive.

I think that I learned from previous research that the convulsions happen after "unconciousness", yet the "unconsciousness" should maybe better be called "unawareness of the outer world".
The cruicial thing about all of this is: What kind of awarness will I have after I "knocked out" ??!!
Some people who tested nitrogen till the time of the knock out, and came back as they regained oxygen (using a mask that would drop down as soon as they fainted), reported that things went Black and then they had some images like in dreams.
So there still seems to be some kind of conciousness until the brain is fully dead. The question that remains unclear is: For how long and in what amount could this be in a combined experience from the experiences of the body, thus maybe highly discomforting or excruciating??

I am the least person who wants to fearmonger but I am struggeling to find answers for this question.
I have the nitrogen tank and pressure reducer, hose, bag .. everything I need.
Yet I would like to know what I might experience for maximum up to 10-15 minutes in a state in which perception of time might be biased in both direction?

To state that the person won't experience anything at all after they faint could still be wrong as different parts of the brain are dying successivly within that 15 minutes.

But it would be interesting to sort this out ... if that's possible..
 
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Intoxicated

Intoxicated

M
Nov 16, 2023
285
Yet I would like to know what I might experience for maximum up to 10-15 minutes in a state in which perception of time might be biased in both direction?
Probably, nothing worse than what many millions of people experience when they die from heart failure or cerebral stroke.
 
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Tears in Rain

Tears in Rain

Lost in time......
Dec 12, 2023
858
So there still seems to be some kind of conciousness until the brain is fully dead. The question that remains unclear is: For how long and in what amount could this be in a combined experience from the experiences of the body, thus maybe highly discomforting or excruciating??

To state that the person won't experience anything at all after they faint could still be wrong as different parts of the brain are dying successivly within that 15 minutes.
I don't see why the pain receptors in the brain would be triggered in the 10-15 mins leading up to death. Some people who did this method gulped for air(agonal breathing) in the period leading up to their death. But that's just the body's survival reaction. There's nothing to suggest any pain was involved.

I cannot see how if there was any pain it would be severe or excruciating.
But obviously noone knows for sure.
 
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BeBraveBrother

Student
Sep 5, 2020
170
I don't see why the pain receptors in the brain would be triggered in the 10-15 mins leading up to death. Some people who did this method gulped for air(agonal breathing) in the period leading up to their death. But that's just the body's survival reaction. There's nothing to suggest any pain was involved.

I cannot see how if there was any pain it would be severe or excruciating.
But obviously noone knows for sure.

I had an attempt in 2017 with chacroal in my bathroom. The amount of carbon monoxide must have dropped during the process as I fainted at some point regained conciouessnesss again. I wouldn't say that I was fully awake or really controlling what I was doing then. I was totally beside myself and had no feeling for my own "self" or what so ever. But I felt like inside my body something was suffocating although I didn't have the perception that this is my body but everything that was me in that moment. It's hard to describe with words as I never had that state of conciousness before.
This is also the reason why I was traumatized to try it again since then, although I was am quite decided that my life and my soul aren't a match and my life should have ended at least a decade ago.
There are different states of conciousness in coma Situation where people have half or full awarness of things around them or where they just live in an inner world that is integrating signals from the outer world or of the body are being integrated in that inner World.
You may also know this from states where you dream and you dream that you urgently are looking for a toilett. After youbwake up you noticed your body needed to pee all the time and that's why it was integrated into your dream. A friend of mine dreamed her leg was cut off in one of her most agonizing nightmares. As soon as she woke up she noticed she was lying on something painfull and her leg started to cramp.

What I want to say is, that the experiences that our body is making may be integrated into what you experience when you shut out of day conciousness.
Even if knockikg out because of hypoxia is not the same as going to sleep it's quite a puzzle what the brain creates while it is dying as it consists of different parts and one part after another will die.
I think the last part that will die is the most primitive part from our primitive anectors that is responsible for the very basic "fight or flight" mechanism. So it remains unknown what that will do to us when it is dying.

Conciousness is not a switch that you turn on and off but it can be a process. You may noticed that after you maybe had a bad night or had a few more drink the night before and your need more time to be fully awake.
Probably, nothing worse than what many millions of people experience when they die from heart failure or cerebral stroke.

I think that's definarly true. Most death are probably just horrible even if most people think they will be one of those who just go to sleep and die when they are very old.
What a big self lie or unrealistic dreaming.
A planned and self commited death can potentially maybe increase the chance that it is peacefull (but only for those who really know what they are doing). On the other hand it's a big step to conciously choose that there might be a part of dying that could be excruciating- even if it is just hypothetical - compared to if it just happens to you and you can't do anything anyway.


I was ready to be dead a for a long time now. But being ready to die when you know what could also happen on your way to death, is a bit harder.
 
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Meditation guide

Meditation guide

Always was, is, and always shall be.
Jun 22, 2020
6,089
The mask filled with vomit and they said he died by choking on it. It took 20 minutes to die. Phillip Nitschke said do not use a mask with the nitrogen method.
 
thewalkingdread

thewalkingdread

Life is a pointless, undeserved, unnecessary pain.
Oct 30, 2023
372
Here it is: one more person "inhumanely and cruely torturing" herself till she fades to black...




Here is another interesting vídeo (from a pure scientific POV) of someone who built a Nitrogen gas chamber to kill chickens:

 
Tears in Rain

Tears in Rain

Lost in time......
Dec 12, 2023
858
But I felt like inside my body something was suffocating although I didn't have the perception that this is my body
There are different states of conciousness in coma Situation where people have half or full awarness of things around them or where they just live in an inner world that is integrating signals from the outer world or of the body are being integrated in that inner World.
Yeah I get what you're saying about different states of consciousness. The body/internal hardwiring will do whatever it can to survive. Someone posted a few weeks back about trying to ctb by taking a load of insulin. They woke up beside their fridge, having consumed a load of food, without consciously realising it. Their subconscious mind somehow drove them to survive.
Just thought i would share my experience to prevent harm on anyone else.

I am a type 1 diabetic and I tried overdosing on insulin multiple times (around 100 units at a time) through the years. I would always back out and eat to cover the units. but some time ago I took 80ml (800 units) of insulin and obviously it did not work. My body kicked into survival mode without me even knowing. To set an example, I would take 10 units of insulin (again, I took 800 units) for a big mac meal, or a footlong subway sandwich, or a sundae. If I took 10 units of insulin and didn't eat any of those things then I'd be at risk of passing out and having a shitty time.

I woke up in front of my fridge which was wide open and I had consumed an entire jar of jelly with my hands, a whole loaf of bread, pasta sauce, BBQ sauce, milk, unfrozen freezie pops, and I got in the bag of sugar. Theres more I ate but I forget. also had thrown up everywhere, assuming from the overeating.

Weird your body fights for you when your mind doesn't. Won't try it again and can't imagine what it would be like for anyone who isn't type 1 or has a functioning pancreas.

But, with hypoxia, your brain is being starved of oxygen. So again, like I said earlier, I don't see why pain would be triggered.
 
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BeBraveBrother

Student
Sep 5, 2020
170
Yeah I get what you're saying about different states of consciousness. The body/internal hardwiring will do whatever it can to survive. Someone posted a few weeks back about trying to ctb by taking a load of insulin. They woke up beside their fridge, having consumed a load of food, without consciously realising it. Their subconscious mind somehow drove them to survive.


But, with hypoxia, your brain is being starved of oxygen. So again, like I said earlier, I don't see why pain would be triggered.

I don't think of pain in the classical sense. More of the feeling of suffocation/tightness.
It would be necessary to know the exact physiology of the body to discuss this more sharply, but my understanding is unfortunaly is very limited. I am not a physician.

The nerves and receptors are all over the body giving the brain Information about the state of the body.

Within that 15 minutes heart rate will ptobably accelarate dramatically at some point, probably trying to use remaining oxygen probably quicker.
Convulsions will happen... even though the brain will be one of the first organs to die within the process, the whole body will be in a dramatically state before that happend already.
But also within the brain it's hard to tell how different parts will react to the loss of other parts and if there will be any concious experience.

I researched literature on experience during the dying brain but couldn't find anything. The most I could find were just physiological descriptions of the biochemical process why brain cells die.

The most promising revelation may come from reports about patients who have been saved during the process but usually they weren't in a 99-100% oxygen deprived environment but with some more remaining oxgen maybe.
And if someone is saved after a few minutes their brain may already be damaged to a degree where they are like zombies and can't give any information anyway.

From what I understand is, that brain cells already die within seconds after oxygen deprivation. But the brain needs almost 15 minutes to die. So this may be due to remaining oxygen in some cells, so this cells may still be working. They die like in a domino effect.

Yeah, I already saw a thread in this forum that is trying to understand what happened.
The problem I see is: This case doesn't give any information at all, accept for that the method is leading to death!
Why?
Because
- most of the spectators aren't scientist and can't really tell at what point the prisoner lost conciousnes
- most of the reporters have a very finite and strong opinion about if that should have even happend or not and will strongly see and report what they think is right, not what really happend
- we don't know at all how exactly the method was carried out and if there were any flaws (for example: was the mask sealed? )

- it is quite likely that the prisoner was panicking and fighting against the situation which is understandable if he didn't want to die
- if he was fighting against it, panicking, holding breath etc. this will definalty have prolonged the process till he knocked out and consequently how long this needed until it ended
- holding breath is definalty a reason why the exchange of the gases that is needed in that method is being disturbed: In order to not have the suffocating feelings before unconciousness I have to release the remaining carbon dioxide in my lungs and not rebreathe it !!!!!!!!!!
-> there is a perception for too much carbon monoxide in the body, not for lack of oxygen directly

No scientific records, no scientifically trained observers that don't have an ethical opinion on death penalty -> nothing to learn objectively about the process
 
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Tears in Rain

Tears in Rain

Lost in time......
Dec 12, 2023
858
The mask filled with vomit and they said he died by choking on it. It took 20 minutes to die. Phillip Nitschke said do not use a mask with the nitrogen method.
I didn't hear anything about vomit being in the mask.
The prosecutors said the nitrogen was on for 15 mins.

As for Philip Nitschke, he has stated that a lot of masks don't provide a good seal, especially oxygen-supply type masks.
Screenshot 20240130 232903
Even a lot of respiratory full-face masks might not be fully suitable. But the SCBA masks recommended by some people on this site are used in toxic environments, where they need a perfect seal to prevent toxic fumes, etc, getting into the mask.
The same for full face SCUBA masks, which given that that are used underwater, need a tight seal.

So I wouldn't take heed of Nitschke's advise in relation to those two types of mask, they have been used to ctb successfully. But I agree with him in relation to any other type of face mask.
 
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BeBraveBrother

Student
Sep 5, 2020
170
I didn't hear anything about vomit being in the mask.
The prosecutors said the nitrogen was on for 15 mins.

As for Philip Nitschke, he has stated that a lot of masks don't provide a good seal, especially oxygen-supply type masks.
View attachment 127739
Even a lot of respiratory full-face masks might not be fully suitable. But the SCBA masks recommended by some people on this site are used in toxic environments, where they need a perfect seal to prevent toxic fumes, etc, getting into the mask.
The same for full face SCUBA masks, which given that that are used underwater, need a tight seal.

So I wouldn't take heed of Nitschke's advise in relation to those two types of mask, they have been used to ctb successfully. But I agree with him in relation to any other type of face mask.

Yes, I remember a medical report on a scuba diver nitrogen death that stated that they found a swelling brain.
Is that probably because the person may have had some oxygen during the process? In other cases with the plastic bag, it has been stated there weren't any signs for the cause if the death if there wouldn't have been the right to die literature next to the body.

I am also asking because I am wondering a swelling brain may probably be a potential problem if the brain still perceives signals during the process..
 
Meditation guide

Meditation guide

Always was, is, and always shall be.
Jun 22, 2020
6,089
I didn't hear anything about vomit being in the mask.
The prosecutors said the nitrogen was on for 15 mins.

As for Philip Nitschke, he has stated that a lot of masks don't provide a good seal, especially oxygen-supply type masks.
View attachment 127739
Even a lot of respiratory full-face masks might not be fully suitable. But the SCBA masks recommended by some people on this site are used in toxic environments, where they need a perfect seal to prevent toxic fumes, etc, getting into the mask.
The same for full face SCUBA masks, which given that that are used underwater, need a tight seal.

So I wouldn't take heed of Nitschke's advise in relation to those two types of mask, they have been used to ctb successfully. But I agree with him in relation to any other type of face mask.
I didn't hear anything about vomit being in the mask.
The prosecutors said the nitrogen was on for 15 mins.

As for Philip Nitschke, he has stated that a lot of masks don't provide a good seal, especially oxygen-supply type masks.
View attachment 127739
Even a lot of respiratory full-face masks might not be fully suitable. But the SCBA masks recommended by some people on this site are used in toxic environments, where they need a perfect seal to prevent toxic fumes, etc, getting into the mask.
The same for full face SCUBA masks, which given that that are used underwater, need a tight seal.

So I wouldn't take heed of Nitschke's advise in relation to those two types of mask, they have been used to ctb successfully. But I agree with him in relation to any other type of face mask.
Witnesses said the mask was filled with spit and vomit. The mask was tied to the table and his face lurched violently against the mask repeatedly. Gas was heard leaking around the edges of the mask. The entire thing was shocking to watch. He did not die immediately.
 
Tears in Rain

Tears in Rain

Lost in time......
Dec 12, 2023
858
Witnesses said the mask was filled with spit and vomit. The mask was tied to the table and his face lurched violently against the mask repeatedly. Gas was heard leaking around the edges of the mask. The entire thing was shocking to watch. He did not die immediately.
Ultimately the guy was doing everything possible to resist death.

As regards dying immediately, noone expected him to die immediately. Any research done has shown it can take 5-10 minutes if done properly. Someone previously posted about Dignitas doing a trial on assisted suicide with helium using oxygen masks. Death occurred after 5-10 mins, except for one person whose mask was probably not tight.


1706664148028

In the Guide to a Humane Self-chosen Death(2006), the average time-to-death of 108 cases looked at (for helium and exit bag) was 13 minutes.
Screenshot 20240131 012620
Screenshot 20240131 0126092
Screenshot 20240131 0126032
 
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TAW122

TAW122

Emissary of the right to die.
Aug 30, 2018
6,579
Yeah it seems like those who have done heinous acts against others and such are afforded a peaceful and (relatively painless, comfortable) way out. Meanwhile people who hate life and want out are forbidden to exit life and suffering. That is indeed really messed up and stupid. If anything, we should be afforded peaceful ways out and not have to constantly hide our intentions, plan and acquire the means in secrecy, and finally hope we overcome our SI as well as executing our attempt properly just to exit! It is indeed so upside down, and pro-lifers like to claim "BuT He DeSerVeD iT!" or some other bullshit reasoning about why people who desperately wish to die shouldn't (and will not) get the guaranteed right to die, yet for people who have done horrible acts against humanity are afforded a way out! I would even say that perhaps this is even more peaceful than lethal injection (which in some cases, has gone wrong due to technician/executioner error, causing immense pain and suffering to the deathrow inmate).
 
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BeBraveBrother

Student
Sep 5, 2020
170
Ultimately the guy was doing everything possible to resist death.

As regards dying immediately, noone expected him to die immediately. Any research done has shown it can take 5-10 minutes if done properly. Someone previously posted about Dignitas doing a trial on assisted suicide with helium using oxygen masks. Death occurred after 5-10 mins, except for one person whose mask was probably not tight.


View attachment 127744

In the Guide to a Humane Self-chosen Death(2006), the average time-to-death of 108 cases looked at (for helium and exit bag) was 13 minutes.
View attachment 127745
View attachment 127748
View attachment 127749

Thanks a lot for this!
What makes me worry now is, that in some cases it took up to 40 minutes in some cases till the last gasps/breathing.
Do I think right when I think that breathing can't happen after brain death as it's orcastrated by the brain?
Usually it was assumed that it wouldn't take more than 15 minutes till the brain died. Even if it's only rare cases this would mean that the nitrogen flow should last more than 40 minutes to be super sure?
It seems to be clear that the brain is damaged irreversible much earlier but I'd feel better to know that the nitrogen flow will extend over the last breath.
 
Tears in Rain

Tears in Rain

Lost in time......
Dec 12, 2023
858
What makes me worry now is, that in some cases it took up to 40 minutes in some cases till the last gasps/breathing.
The people who did that study felt it took that one person 40 mins to die because their oxygen mask probably didn't provide a perfect seal.
That's why people advise against using those types of masks to ctb.

The full study can be downloaded from the following link:
 
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alexlynn74

Member
Mar 20, 2024
15
You'd be kocked out within a few seconds bc of lack of oxygen. N2 / inert gas method is considered to be very peaceful.
I'm not sure, I actually bought everything I need for the N2 method and still feel like I'm being suffocated. It's a horrible feeling and it really sucks cause now I think I'd honestly rather just jump
 
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BeBraveBrother

Student
Sep 5, 2020
170
I'm not sure, I actually bought everything I need for the N2 method and still feel like I'm being suffocated. It's a horrible feeling and it really sucks cause now I think I'd honestly rather just jump

Do you mean suffocating feels like you have a heavy need to breathe ?

According to experiments/Tests, also from pilots who get themselves tested for hypoxia, report having different experiences. So everybody has a different "hypoxia profile", meaning what it would feel like for them. Pilots get themselves exposed to that state during their training exactly for that reason (usually in groups in monitored chambers) so they know their own Profile and know it can vary sometimes. In case of emergency they would then have the early warning signs before being unable to act and could then just put their oxygen mask on before they do anything.
The description of hypoxic experiences vary from dizzyness, euphoria, nauxiousness, feeling problems to move/slowed and/or uncoordinated movements, slowed and dizzy cognition (not being able to do simple caclucaltion and movement tasks that a 5-6 years old in contract would he able to do). It's usually a mix of some of these things.
Some a bit similar to alcohol toxcucation. It also varties a bit how much oxygen deprivation someone needs in order to develop severe symptoms. The experience can be pleasant or unplesant especially if heavy dizzyness is involved and/or if someone isn't feeling good with giving up control.

I had a hypoxic experience when I went on a 3000-4000m above sea level mountain with a gondola (2years ago) and some hiking and to visit a viewing platform. Although most people seemed to be okay I got a few difficulties to move, mostly felt short breathed, acclerated heart beat and, a bit tingling on my skin. There was some euphoria but also some unpmesantness and dizzyness. It's hard to describe.
Of course it never went too far under a certain amount of oxygen in that scenario.

In 2017 I had my only and last suicide attempt with chacroal. It's similar to oxygen deprivation with an exit bag yet a different mechanism. It needs "only" a few percent carbon monoxide and the physiological process is different as the carbon monoxide is making red blood cells unable to transport oxygen rather than excluding oxygen from entering into the lung in the first place (like with the exit bag). As it's hard to control the amount of carbon monoxide I was very unlucky: I lost conciousness for some time and regained it (as the amount of oxygen must have unfortunaly have risen again). My regained conciousness wasn't full but like in a dream like state and my body kind of acted on it's own without my conciouss willing from that point on. It felt like suffocation from inside rather have problems to breathe. It's hard to describe but it was so excruciating that I don't wish anyone to experience anything like that. I must eventually been able to open the bathroom door somehow although my legs couldn't stand until I crawled out of it.
This experience was so strong that it made me stay here for the last 7 years although I had decided to go for long time before 2017 already.
I am constantly scared that my last minutes will be horrific.

I think that's maybe something we share.

From what you describe I would assume that either soemthing on your setup isn't right, for example: really pure nitrogen? Oxygen fully away? Carbon monoxide not rebreathed?
Or that your fear to suffocated is making you experience the experience in the way that your unconsiousness is expecting/anticipating it to experience (kind of a psychological mechanism).
Anxiety /people with a psychological panic response can also result in feelings of suffocating etc. That can also happen without any suicide Set up.

I don't know what is really going on here but I think all I would try is to check the set up again and think about if I am really ready to loose control and give up my body.
 
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LunarGirl

LunarGirl

tired of the never ending cycle
Apr 4, 2024
20
This is my ideal method. But setting it up seems needlessly complicated.
I got a CPAP mask that I was considering hooking up to a nitrogen tank but I am just unconvinced from trying the mask on there won't be too much leakage/letting air in. Not to mention how complicated it seems to regulate the amount of nitrogen leaving the tank, and making sure that it can flow for at least over 5 minutes. I also wouldn't want too much nitrogen flowing in which then could burst a lung from the pressure, defeating the purpose of a peaceful bus ride.
 
Kapsyl

Kapsyl

Student
Feb 3, 2024
146
This is my ideal method. But setting it up seems needlessly complicated.
I got a CPAP mask that I was considering hooking up to a nitrogen tank but I am just unconvinced from trying the mask on there won't be too much leakage/letting air in. Not to mention how complicated it seems to regulate the amount of nitrogen leaving the tank, and making sure that it can flow for at least over 5 minutes. I also wouldn't want too much nitrogen flowing in which then could burst a lung from the pressure, defeating the purpose of a peaceful bus ride.
I'm not sure how airtight that CPAP mask is or how suitable but hooking it up as you suggest is not recommended. You would need a high flow rate to keep up with the breathing, but that would also result in over pressure in the mask and a overall unpleasant experience.

It's possible to do as you suggest but you would need to use a reservoir between the nitrogen tank and the mask, complicating the method even more.

Also you need the gas flowing appropriately 30 min. It may sounds complicated but it's achievable, I'm happy to help if you have more questions.
 
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MyChoiceAlone

MyChoiceAlone

sleep deprived and/or drunk
Jul 23, 2023
1,132
Ultimately the guy was doing everything possible to resist death.
only read a little but it didn't seem like that dude wanted to die. you have to inhale that. guess they didn't think it through.didn't want to but yet here we are.