Escape from the cycle - Permanent death?

[TransientEternal]

This thought keeps bothering me and idk what to do about it. If i am alive I can perceive because of my consciousness, if I am dead i can no longer perceive and I lose everything (all my knowledge, experience, memories, self, etc). If we take in to account the first law of thermodynamics then nothing is created and nothing is destroyed, only changed. On death, given we can't perceive and don't have a consciousness time will objectively go on for a nearly infinite duration while we go on endless amount of changes and this will only stop until we get consciousness again, but we don't have our knowledge, self, etc. So are we damned to repeat everything forever without knowing? Our suffering linked to chance? Is there any type of true death or immortality or any counter any thing that can reduce the credibility of this or any more hypothesis that are as or more probable than this?

 

[LostZombie]

Unscientific I say. We were asleep forever until we were not, we woke up, we like to think that waking up is special. It's just a chemical reaction, we are nothing more than a chemical reaction in a universe that want to rid itself of everything thanks to entropy. This does not violate the first law of thermodynamics since energy disperses, and with the universe expanding the energy will spread out more. Then at some point ( 10^120 years) entropy will win, and the universe will be unchanging forever since it as disordered as it can get.

Nothing happens forever, and keeps not happening forever -melodysheep

 

[TransientEternal]

Unscientific I say. We were asleep forever until we were not, we woke up, we like to think that waking up is special. It's just a chemical reaction, we are nothing more than a chemical reaction in a universe that want to rid itself of everything thanks to entropy. This does not violate the first law of thermodynamics since energy disperses, and with the universe expanding the energy will spread out more. Then at some point ( 10^120 years) entropy will win, and the universe will be unchanging forever since it as disordered as it can get.

Nothing happens forever, and keeps not happening forever -melodysheep

Hope you're right. Eternal ignorance sounds like hell especially if you keep coming to the same realization and/or might come across some truly terrible suffering. Still can't quite comprehend not perceiving at all because non-perception is just unfathomable.

 

[LostZombie]

Still can't quite comprehend not perceiving at all because non-perception is just unfathomable.

It's a limitation of the human brain, we are still animals after all. We just happen to be wise ones who question if the whole idea of biology of "your born u have sex to bring more of your species in then u die" is even worth it. We were only meant to understand very little, but we got too smart for our own good. However the best way to explain to a human mind, is to be asleep forever, since when you sleep your are not perceiving anything (unless you are dreaming) it's just a long sleep since your mind in inactive; that is death a goodnight forever.

That is why anyone who chooses to CTB Iwill tell them goodnight, its a way of telling them to have a good sleep

 

[Forever Sleep]

If we were back in nature chances are, when we died or, if we were killed, a predator or scavenger would come along and eat us. Those who choose to be buried feed worms and insects. So- our 'energy' in the form of fats and nutrients would get transfered along to other creatures. When humans eat animals- do they take on part of their consciousness?

Do we still sense our waste material? Think of how many shits we've all done, teeth we've lost, nail and hair clippings we've thrown away. Are you aware of where they all are now? Or, where they went? Are you worried about what might be happening to them? It seems unlikely. They don't feel a part of you anymore. They could throw your nail clippings into molten lava and you wouldn't feel a thing.

I tend to believe our physical matter requires a working brain and consciousness to register that it's alive. Sure- particles of us will still exist after we die. Maybe for a long time but- I doubt we'll be aware of that.

Ever been under anaesthesia? Did things bother you during that period? If they did it right- no. They could have opened up your chest and you wouldn't have been aware of it. Personally, I'm not too worried about things I will never be aware of and, never feel.

I never quite understand why people are sure their own consciousness will reappear. I guess it does come down to belief ultimately. Plus, how you see consciousness. I tend to see it as simply a function of the brain, rather than a separate entity.

Like seeing is a function of the eye and brain combined. We all have eyes- does that mean we all see in the same way? We know we don't. Some people are colourblind. Some animals see in a completely different way to us. It surely depends on what genes they got. What species they are. I imagine the same goes for our brains. So, I tend to feel that only our own brain creates our consciousness in the particular configuration we have. How could 'you' be you if you were born 100 years in the future to different parents?

Another example is cloning. If they cloned you- would you share a consciousness with that person? Would you know their thoughts? After all- they do actually have a replica of your brain. It seems unlikely. More likely that you would be able to relate closely how to clone you might think or feel. But, even then, experiences change us. So, if your lives were very different- you may end up very different people.

Another consideration is- what is your earliest memory? What were you first few weeks of life like? You were obviously alive and conscious but, I doubt you can remember. You may not have many memories for a year or two. So- wouldn't that suggest that consciousness is something that grows and develops- as the brain inside the organism does? If it were a fully fledged entity inside a baby, wouldn't we be smarter at that age?

If our energies/ consciousness have always existed- what were we when humans didn't exist here? What will we become when they are destroyed? Would the consciousness of a dinosaur or amoeba fit inside a human? Why don't more of us have a bigger sense of all these other lives we must have lived? How does this recycling programme fit with changes in population numbers?

Can you remember your past lives? I doubt many of us can. Meaning that, either we don't have them. Or, we do have them but, don't remember them. So- even if a future 'you' does come back, presumably, they or, you will have no sense or memory of your current life. It will be as if they/ you are starting again- effectively a new entity.

So, that's another reason I don't worry so much about that element of it. I feel sorry for any new life coming here but for one, I don't believe any of it will be me again. And, if I'm wrong and it is me, it will be me will complete amnesia. Plus- born some time in the future to new parents. I hope they considered their situation more thoroughly before deciding to breed.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

From a solipsistic point of view only our own mind is sure to exist. The external world and other minds cannot be know and might not exist ouside our mind. Who ever woke up from a dream and realised that he is still sleeping knows were this idea comes from. So dying could be nothing than changing the level in the matrix.

 

[Black_Knight]

Continuity and networking. This is literally why we use written language. We know how shitty and precarious our individual positions are so we force our ideas to survive throughout time so that when we get wiped out and resurrected there's something left in the wreckage to tell us what to do
We do this over and over again until we accumulate enough knowledge to overpower the forces that make us this way

It's like the movie memento if you've ever seen that. You'd hope minus the antagonists but not always.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

Unless we know whether the universe itself is in an endless cycle we won't know if life and consciousness is also in an endless cycle.

There are a few people on earth who "remember" who they were in the past but the number of those people is truly tiny.

I wouldn't be worried about this endless cycle if it really is an endless cycle. We won't remember anything from the past.

 

[intr0verse]

Ever been under anaesthesia? Did things bother you during that period? If they did it right- no. They could have opened up your chest and you wouldn't have been aware of it. Personally, I'm not too worried about things I will never be aware of and, never feel.

General anesthesia should be available as a paid service in every hospital, i would take it every other week.

 

[Forever Sleep]

General anesthesia should be available as a paid service in every hospital, i would take it every other week.

Lol. It is a pretty crazy experience. It's also weird to me- that it's different from sleep. That the brain seemingly has numerous versions of being 'off'.

 

[intr0verse]

Lol. It is a pretty crazy experience. It's also weird to me- that it's different from sleep. That the brain seemingly has numerous versions of being 'off'.

I never had g.a, how would you describe it different than deep sleep?

 

[Forever Sleep]

I never had g.a, how would you describe it different than deep sleep?

It was very odd. Like a tingly feeling- moving up my temples. Almost like I could feel the stuff in my veins travelling up to my brain. I didn't know how to describe it and, I wanted them to know I was still conscious so- I told them I felt dizzy. They said that was normal. Then, I closed my eyes and, when I opened them again, the ceiling was moving- because they were wheeling me back towards the recovery area. I just remember saying: 'That was amazing. I don't remember anything. Why does my throat hurt?' They told me- it was the pipe they push in to keep me breathing. Literally though- no concept of time- they could have told me I'd been in there 6 hours and I would have accepted it. As it was- I think it took less than an hour. It was keyhole surgery to remove my gallbladder.

I'd previously been given a sedative while they did an endoscopy type procedure to remove a stone from the bile duct. That was slightly different. More like a dreamless sleep but, I came around when they touched my shoulder. Funnily enough though- I felt far more groggy after that procedure. I think maybe because they don't give you drugs to reverse the first lot. They just leave them to wear off.

I remember people commenting on the Michael Jackson case though. Saying how crazy it was to be using propofol- which is the anaesthetic drug he died under. Because it doesn't induce sleep. I guess it forces the body to rest and mind to switch off but then, I can't say it exactly felt restful. That could have been the result of the surgeries of course!

I guess I hope death is like anaesthesia though. Like awareness and then nothing.

Sorry for derailing the thread OP.

 

[intr0verse]

It was very odd. Like a tingly feeling- moving up my temples. Almost like I could feel the stuff in my veins travelling up to my brain. I didn't know how to describe it and, I wanted them to know I was still conscious so- I told them I felt dizzy. They said that was normal. Then, I closed my eyes and, when I opened them again, the ceiling was moving- because they were wheeling me back towards the recovery area. I just remember saying: 'That was amazing. I don't remember anything. Why does my throat hurt?' They told me- it was the pipe they push in to keep me breathing. Literally though- no concept of time- they could have told me I'd been in there 6 hours and I would have accepted it. As it was- I think it took less than an hour. It was keyhole surgery to remove my gallbladder.

I'd previously been given a sedative while they did an endoscopy type procedure to remove a stone from the bile duct. That was slightly different. More like a dreamless sleep but, I came around when they touched my shoulder. Funnily enough though- I felt far more groggy after that procedure. I think maybe because they don't give you drugs to reverse the first lot. They just leave them to wear off.

I remember people commenting on the Michael Jackson case though. Saying how crazy it was to be using propofol- which is the anaesthetic drug he died under. Because it doesn't induce sleep. I guess it forces the body to rest and mind to switch off but then, I can't say it exactly felt restful. That could have been the result of the surgeries of course!

I guess I hope death is like anaesthesia though. Like awareness and then nothing.

Sorry for derailing the thread OP.

Wonderful, except for the reason you had to go through g.a, of course.
I think one reason people are afraid of death, is our inability to grasp how it would be to not experience thinking and time, never again....

 

[dead dav]

Hard one I think it's like a computer you are born ie switched on and you die ie switched off and go back to nothing