Economic incentives of the state (or lies society tells)

[Snake of Eden]

I'd be very careful about making the argument that euthanasia for the disabled is good because it serves the economic interests of the wealthy and powerful tbh.

I second you on that. That approach will only serve to conflate euthanasia with eugenics. Not a good idea at all to use this argument in favour of euthanasia debate. Bad move

 

[Alan James]

I'd be very careful about making the argument that euthanasia for the disabled is good because it serves the economic interests of the wealthy and powerful tbh.

This is not an argument for euthanasia, but it proves that it is not about money.

 

[deflationary]

It depends where the line is drawn when you say "needlessly harder" and what you mean by "outside forces". I mean we've done the Enlightened Takes in the numerous "free euthanasia for all!!" chats on here, my head is still spinning from the last wonderful go-round but my own view is it's something within us which is sadly keeping us here, rather than a sadistic society who won't provide a physician to kill us on request, and there's no shame in admitting that imo.

But it's so clearly not only something within us when society bans the best methods and engages in emotional blackmail and brainwashing over suicide. Not sure why you're insisting on shutting your eyes to that. Doesn't mean society is sadistic exactly, but it definitely doesn't have our best interests in mind either. There's no reason not to criticize it for that as a suicidal person. I guess if your point is that one shouldn't become too obsessed over it since it's hopeless to change it, then that's fair. But of course you're gonna find plenty of people unhappy with the situation on a suicide forum, since the stance society adopts is both idiotic and harmful for the people here. It's silly to expect people not to voice their discontent over this.

 

[Snake of Eden]

It depends where the line is drawn when you say "needlessly harder" and what you mean by "outside forces". I mean we've done the Enlightened Takes in the numerous "free euthanasia for all!!" chats on here, my head is still spinning from the last wonderful go-round but my own view is it's something within us which is sadly keeping us here, rather than a sadistic society who won't provide a physician to kill us on request, and there's no shame in admitting that imo.

I am sorry if I seem to stalk you here but I cant help but to endorse your view points when I strongly agree with them. I think for most people on the forum, there is a good reason for the frustration they have about the lack of euthansia accessibility universally. At the same time some of this frustration seems to be a projection of an unconscious conflict about the actionability of suicide itelf. It is due to lack of self awareness

 

[Chinaski]

But it's so clearly not only something within us when society bans the best methods and engages in emotional blackmail and brainwashing over suicide. Not sure why you're insisting on shutting your eyes to that. Doesn't mean society is sadistic exactly, but it definitely doesn't have our best interests in mind either. There's no reason not to criticize it for that as a suicidal person. I guess if your point is that one shouldn't become too obsessed over it since it's hopeless to change it, then that's fair. But of course you're gonna find plenty of people unhappy with the situation on a suicide forum, since the stance society adopts is both idiotic and harmful for the people here. It's silly to expect people not to voice their discontent over this.

I think the position on this depends on whether or not you think society should bend to the will of one individual who finds suicide difficult. I am such a person, and l will state my opinion here that medical assistance in dying should be both broadened in terms of criteria and not be financially prohibitive, but there is a lot of chat around here which essentially boils down to how society should be more active in killing us and l fundamentally disagree with this position. As someone who also finds suicide difficult and completely sympathises with others who feel the same way l certainly do not agree with your comments about "emotional blackmail" and "brainwashing", as if we are somehow victims of an anti-suicide campaign preventing the normie sheeple from waking up to some kind of hidden truth.

If society begun to enable a free euthanasia at the point of demand, no questions asked, to suit the people on this website that would very obviously be a bad thing for society as a whole. We've gone through this before and my thoughts on this have been made clear in other threads but a compassionate society is one which seeks to ameliorate the myriad drivers to suicide, not one which offers death on demand.

I am sorry if I seem to stalk you here but I cant help but to endorse your view points when I strongly agree with them. I think for most people on the forum, there is a good reason for the frustration they have about the lack of euthansia accessibility universally. At the same time some of this frustration seems to be a projection of an unconscious conflict about the actionability of suicide itelf. It is due to lack of self awareness

Tbf most people who stalk me do so by going from thread to thread just to reignite tedious age-old beefs so there's no need to apologise.

 

[deflationary]

l certainly do not agree with your comments about "emotional blackmail" and "brainwashing", as if we are somehow victims of an anti-suicide campaign preventing the normie sheeple from waking up to some kind of hidden truth.

Then I think you're wrong on a very obvious point. Dunno what more to tell you about that.

If society begun to enable a free euthanasia at the point of demand, no questions asked, to suit the people on this website that would very obviously be a bad thing for society as a whole.

And why should a suicidal person that's being fucked over by the way things are now care about that? Why should someone consider themselves as acceptable collateral damage to benefit the rest of society? Why shouldn't they voice their discontent? Where should the suicidal person's loyalty to the rest of this society stem from? If society can't figure out how to go about its business without creating collateral damage, then the least the losers in the deal (whom society refuses to help) should have is their discontent and disapproval at the situation.

 

[Chinaski]

Then I think you're wrong on a very obvious point. Dunno what more to tell you about that.


And why should a suicidal person that's being fucked over by the way things are now care about that? Why should someone consider themselves as acceptable collateral damage to benefit the rest of society? Why shouldn't they voice their discontent? Where should the suicidal person's loyalty to the rest of this society stem from? If society can't figure out how to go about its business without creating collateral damage, then the least the losers in the deal (whom society refuses to help) should have is their discontent and disapproval at the situation.

The first point: yeah, l think you're wrong. We're clearly not going to agree on whether or not we are "brainwashed" against suicide.

The second point: I've said l have sympathy with the venting. I've said l understand where it comes from. The fundamental disagreement is that l don't believe society's greatest cruelty is to withhold death on demand.

I've noticed you talk to me about the mindset of the suicidal person as if this is something l fail to understand, a perspective l am unable to comprehend, as if I'm failing to subscribe to a core membership criteria of CTB Club by disagreeing with posts like these. I too *am suicidal*, I'm just aware that only l can commit suicide and would prefer to avoid going full Logans Run just to make my death easier, this is surely not a controversial position.

 

[deflationary]

The first point: yeah, l think you're wrong. We're clearly not going to agree on whether or not we are "brainwashed" against suicide.

I think most people have a huge, unchecked and unacknowledged pro-life bias and we feed into it with all sorts of myths and religions and sappy stories and just blind idiotic positivity. It's not brainwashing in the sense of someone consciously trying to fool us of course. But society always grabs for the life-affirming stories and has no qualms about sacrificing truth to that end. It's inevitable.

The fundamental disagreement is that l don't believe society's greatest cruelty is to withhold death on demand.

Who does? It's one of its cruelties in at least some situations. Doesn't have to be the greatest to be worth whining about.

I've noticed you talk to me about the mindset of the suicidal person as if this is something l fail to understand, a perspective l am unable to comprehend, as if I'm failing to subscribe to a core membership criteria of CTB Club by disagreeing with posts like these. I too *am suicidal*, I'm just aware that only l can commit suicide and would prefer to avoid going full Logans Run just to make my death easier, this is surely not a controversial position.

Sorry for coming across like that. Maybe you do activate the pro-lifer fighting parts of my brain. I'm also aware that only I can commit suicide. I'm also aware that society doesn't want me to do it even if it's in my best interests. Since I'm gonna have to stay alive and be miserable for the foreseeable future anyway, I reserve the right to at least complain as loud as I like about what a farce I consider all of this to be.

 

[9BBN]

While I agree that many of us are slaves to a system, I believe most people try to keep us here because they empathize with us. I think most people want to help us but don't know how.

I don't want to traumatize a loved one.

The fact remains we *can* kill ourselves at any time of our choosing, myself included… there is much more honesty in admitting that something within is holding us back than there is in blaming society for not enabling it.

This response seems too black-and-white to me. First of all, this isn't the "euthanasia for all" thread, so when people express any outward frustration here it isn't necessarily because they believe in euthanasia for all. I clarify this because you wrote "blaming society for not enabling it" instead of "blaming society for holding us back", which I think more accurately represents deflationary's view –– he is held back by the expected trauma of a loved one, not because he is not "enabled" by the government. Second, a genuine question for you Chinaski, do you really believe that those who wait to ctb so as not to traumatize a loved one are simply not ctbing because "something within us is holding us back"? While I agree people honestly do have a courage problem that keeps them from ctb, what about those who have the courage but don't want to traumatize a loved one? This nuance is important because it means just because we *can* kill ourselves doesn't mean society isn't holding us back.

Personally I have outward frustration, but not because society isn't "enabling" me to ctb. It's because I feel held back by the fact that in order to ctb, I have to weigh my own suffering against the suffering my loved ones will face when I ctb, because they are dogmatically pro-life.

 

[demuic]

The only reason why people prevent ctb because people (construction workers, doctors, restaurant workers etc) are assets (property) of the state. Prove me wrong.

In this competitive ruthless cutthroat world where everyone looks out for themselves I refuse to believe that random strangers truly care about other people. How soon would they sharpen their knives if it was a situation between you or them. Pessimistic I know but I think that's human nature. If you truly love someone, you know when to let them go

This replies in this thread are confusing to me. Your point comes across perfectly clear to me. I'm not sure what there is to misunderstand. Nowhere did you even insinuate anything about some conspiracy or cabal.. Just another reason it's getting tiresome to continue to remain on this site.

It's irrelevant to me whether most other people consider "most humans" to be fundamentally good or not which is a laughable concept in of itself when the majority of humans aren't concerned with the suffering that goes on to anyone else, and will willfully dole out if it is beneficial or at least not actively deleterious to them. Even if there are only a minority of very psychopathic individuals enacting their whims upon others, the majority of other people allow it to happen anyway. Apathy is nearly as bad as sadism to me, but that's another discussion. When left to their own devices, people more often than not resort to savagery.

Ultimately it does come down to "control" and "power" as well. On many levels, humans seek to control others. It's the basis of authoritarian regimes and authoritarian people in general. It doesn't matter what you can get someone to obey to, it's the act of enforcing your will on another that maintains that power. That drive, and particular moralistic or ideological beliefs often overrides any economic incentive. Maybe that's the part people took issue with as you said it's the "only reason". People wouldn't allow someone who is considered a "drain" on society like someone with terminal illness to get euthanasia due to ideological beliefs, and enforcing those beliefs on others is an act of control. As more countries allow this, I doubt it's solely out of the goodness of their hearts. There still is heavy reluctance to the idea of opening this up to so called "mental illness" because people afflicted with mental illness are seen as able to recover and become "functional" members of society in the future, and by allowing them to commit suicide, that possibility is cut off.

 

[9BBN]

This replies in this thread are confusing to me… It's irrelevant to me whether most other people consider "most humans" to be fundamentally good or not

Well, I thought what was being discussed was whether most humans are empathetic or not, not "fundamentally good or not." And that's relevant to the conversation because it's an alternative explanation to OP's argument that people prevent suicide only because people are assets to the state. Some of us here are arguing that empathy primarily drives suicide prevention efforts, stifled by the inability to actually improve the lives of living suicidal people.

the majority of humans aren't concerned with the suffering that goes on to anyone else

This is where we agree to disagree. "Ignorant" might be more accurate.

Apathy is nearly as bad as sadism to me, but that's another discussion.

Agreed from a utilitarian perspective, but the motivations are usually different and the former is more passive.

Ultimately it does come down to "control" and "power" as well.

I used to feel this way, but not anymore. I grew up in a high-control religious environment, and I now view most of the rules and traditions as about control and power. But when I was ignorantly under the system, I understood the intent behind these rules very differently: to follow The moral code, to respect life. For example, on the topic of abortion, many pro-choicers mistakenly believe pro-lifers are motivated by control, but the truth really is that most pro-lifers simply have a misguided empathy that leads them to believe the compassionate thing to do is prevent abortion. I believe the same is true for the right to die. The argument, about which we can agree to disagree, is that most people are driven by empathy, albeit misguided, and not actually control. Your example of authoritarian regimes feels to me like the exception that proves the rule, because politics is a honeypot for narcissists. Discussion of morality is not.

 

[Seiba]

The fact remains we *can* kill ourselves at any time of our choosing, myself included. I don't get why this bald fact is perceived as such an offensive statement on here, there is much more honesty in admitting that something within is holding us back than there is in blaming society for not enabling it. I too am pissed off when l wake each morning and realise that, once again, l have failed to pass peacefully in my sleep but ultimately I'm the only person who can hasten this and to me it's absolutely illogical to turn this frustration outward.

Many of the methods are traumatizing to attempt and for those left behind. I would accept being able to kill myself at anytime if it were true fully, but as it stands I need to plan around others in my household and otherwise outside of my household if I choose to do so outside. With the former two I need to be careful as to not be preserved with brain damage or otherwise physical side effects. I would accept "being able to do it any time" if it wasn't prohibited, or at the very least I could write a DNR which would be respected. That would be a middle ground that required no euthanasia. I would also like a societal concession on many of the methods that traumatize them as they're what people are left with. Most people largely aren't aware of fringe methods held in a book with an email in it. The frustration you speak of isn't from a place of them not ending my life for me, but rather alienation and and hypocrisy in being labelled cruel for choosing one of the methods they offer. Among which are to drown in public, slit my throat, blow my brains out, jump off a building, cut my wrist, hanging, and jump in a front of a train. While offering no alternative other than "never kill yourself, thanks."

I'm aware neither of us are in control of what is decided in that way, and that neither what I proposed nor euthanasia will happen in my lifetime. It's just disappointing a bit. No matter how I leave I will be "wrong" despite having little choice outside of very expensive importing. Even so, I will get blamed for being so cruel to do so in a hotel. Nihilism is often projected on the suicidal when it comes to us leaving, but I think that for many they're not strictly nihilistic and would be willing to make concessions for others if possible. The euthanasia would allow me to explain to others and brace them for my passing, and allow my death to only be physically seen by those who wish to and have otherwise chosen to in their profession. Far too idealistic to happen -- I know.

 

[Chinaski]

While I agree that many of us are slaves to a system, I believe most people try to keep us here because they empathize with us. I think most people want to help us but don't know how.



Second, a genuine question for you Chinaski, do you really believe that those who wait to ctb so as not to traumatize a loved one are simply not ctbing because "something within us is holding us back"? While I agree people honestly do have a courage problem that keeps them from ctb, what about those who have the courage but don't want to traumatize a loved one? This nuance is important because it means just because we *can* kill ourselves doesn't mean society isn't holding us back.

Of course these people, who decide against ctb because they do not wish to traumatise a loved one, exist. The issue is that in those cases the "society is bad, pls doctor kill us all" is moot. Their ability to make their own choice is as unimpeded as anyone else's - l too would traumatise a loved one if l ctb, this is something we must all weigh up as part of our individual choice, this would be the same if we all lived in our pro-choice utopia with a fully functioning sarco in every public library.

 

[Nostalgic]

yeah I wasn't thinking properly when I first wrote the post, I would edit and reconstruct post but I can't do that. I am not saying that society should allow death on demand or people should be entitled to euthanasia. But ctb is not as easy as chinsaki makes its seem, obviously because he/she is still alive, there are lots of failed attempts. Its one of the hardest decision to make in ones life. When I talked about letting people go I wasn't talking about giving people death on demand. I was talking about giving people the freedom to make the decisions for their own life. To choose their own fate. And not be arrested and locked up due to a failed ctb. People just do their jobs and they don't really care as long as their payed. You can't pay people to care about other people. There are people out there that have empathy and compassion and there are some people that don't. If I could write the post again and I would make it specifically about the government and why they have made suicide illegal because it is not in their benefit to have their citizens ctb as this lower overall economic revenue among over reasons. I want to be realistic in the sense that no matter how much someone supposedly cares about you or loves you that only you can save yourself. You are responsible for your own happiness and your wellbeing no government or loved one can save you from that responsibility. How do you explain to someone that you have lost the will to live and that you can't keep on going? How do you explain to someone that you feel no joy or happiness despite the myriad of ssri's that you take. When life for you become this sort of unending source of pain and suffering with no relief. Then they tell you that you are selfish or your mad and lock you in a mental hospital and force food down your throat. You kick and scream that you want to be left alone and they hold you down against your will. Threaten electricshock and waterboarding therapy against my will, I had to get a lawyer involved otherwise they would of had their way with me. Thats just abuse. Who does it help? You or them. Obviously it helps them because it satisfies whatever ideological belief that they have. Life is a series of choices. If you're not allowed to make choices aren't you just a slave. People should be allowed to choose for themselves. Maybe my post would geared specifically towards the government. But random people don't necessarily have your best interests at heart, I just don't believe that. If I could edit my original post I would gear more towards the government and I just question their motives. I would also take out the part if people love you they should let you go because I think people are confusing that to mean I think doctors should give euthanasia on demand. Yes ctb is a traumatic and horrible thing. Especially to witness but it doesn't have to be that way, there are peaceful methods that people could take like N if the government did not ban them and make them illegal.

If I had a choice I would choose to not to be born in this world as think that would be much easier than ctb. But shit happens and here we are. When you live in a capitalistic society thing are cutthroat. Only the strong survive and the weak suffer and maybe even perish depending on what country you live. Who chooses to be born in this world? I hope that makes more sense, ask questions if you are confused.

It just seems so pointless, the materialism. The gluttony, the greed, the superficiality, the sensationalism and drama of it all. Of life. The clashing of egos, to see who has the better cars, money, social status, who is more good looking, who's kid has gone to what school, who's prettier? The sheer vanity of it all. Maybe if I had a family that actually gave a shit about me, maybe life would be worth living, maybe I could justify my existence in this world, maybe I am just projecting my own fucked up situation onto the world. Im sure there are good people out there. I guess the reason why I personally want to ctb is that I guess I have just never been happy in my life. And I use this platform to try and articulate the fucked up thoughts in me head. Sorry guys, lol. I guess its hard to be motivated to do things in life when you are not happy. That just my hypothesis I guess. There's just no motivation for it.

 

[Alan James]

Everything is very simple: every adult has the full fundamental right to dispose of his life and his body (if this does not directly harm the life and health of other people) and the right to a painless death. For any reason or no reason at all (just because he does not want to live anymore). The choice in this can be exclusively with a person, not with the state, not with society, not with his relatives, or with anyone other than the person himself. It is absurd, impudent and outrageous that someone takes on the role of a person to solve the issues of his life and death.