does thiopental work?

[WhatHowWhen]

Has anyone here used thiopental? Is it risky?

 

[schrei_nach_liebe]

It's part of the traditional lethal injection 3 drug cocktail for executions, it works quite well. How you'd get your hands on it is a bit bewildering considering governments have a lot of trouble getting their hands on it.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

governments have a lot of trouble getting their hands on it.

That is what I'm often wondering, wouldn't it be possible for a government to just setup their own labs for such substances?

Thiopental IV is very lethal and peaceful.

 

[WhatHowWhen]

It's part of the traditional lethal injection 3 drug cocktail for executions, it works quite well. How you'd get your hands on it is a bit bewildering considering governments have a lot of trouble getting their hands on it.

It's available where I live,it could be a scam though, but someone around here ordered and used it, and it seems that they were successful

Can it work alone on its own? If taken orally?

 

[schrei_nach_liebe]

It's available where I live,it could be a scam though, but someone around here ordered and used it, and it seems that they were successful

Can it work alone on its own? If taken orally?

Yeah it would work on its own, I don't know the pharmacodynamics taken orally but it's probably similar to N. The volume would need to be high compared to IV.

Midazolam (versed) is given to greatly decrease anxiety and consciousness, as it is in anesthesia, then sodium thiopental to further induce anesthesia and greatly impact the physiological processes of the body, and then KCl to stop the heart. KCl you have to be sure the person is really knocked out because it's outrageously painful to the venous system and to the heart at the concentration, volume, and rate they push it. It's extremely damaging to the vasculature and could easily result in limb loss if the lethal injection fails, but I don't know of any case that it failed after KCl was given, you're too far gone by that point from the thiopental.

 

[WhatHowWhen]

Yeah it would work on its own, I don't know the pharmacodynamics taken orally but it's probably similar to N. The volume would need to be high compared to IV.

Midazolam (versed) is given to greatly decrease anxiety and consciousness, as it is in anesthesia, then sodium thiopental to further induce anesthesia and greatly impact the physiological processes of the body, and then KCl to stop the heart. KCl you have to be sure the person is really knocked out because it's outrageously painful to the venous system and to the heart at the concentration, volume, and rate they push it. It's extremely damaging to the vasculature and could easily result in limb loss if the lethal injection fails, but I don't know of any case that it failed after KCl was given, you're too far gone by that point from the thiopental.

so I guess KCl is used to just get it done quickly?
Thank you
though what I am most worried about is if it fails is there a chance of irreversible damage? I cannot find info on that anywhere

 

[schrei_nach_liebe]

so I guess KCl is used to just get it done quickly?
Thank you
though what I am most worried about is if it fails is there a chance of irreversible damage? I cannot find info on that anywhere

Yeah, it's to get it done quickly and offer a redundancy of assured death. Definitely a chance of irreversible damage if it fails, absolutely. Barbiturates are hard on the body and in an overdose of them you're compromising the body's ability to breathe, to pump blood (making it less efficient to provide oxygen and remove waste). Ignoring all the other toxicity of the drug, just the impaired oxygen alone causes a major insult to the oxygen hungry structures in the body like the brain, eyes, renal system, and hepatic system. Hypoxic states always insult those structures, hypoxic states often result in brain damage which is hard to quantify and not always apparent. Easily quantifiable and readily apparent is an AKI, often people in overdoses of any kind resulting in unconsciousness and a cardiac arrest are going to require some sort of renal support up to and including CRRT. Renal damage can be and often is reversible to some extent. Like you can totally kill your renal system and have it come back to a level that's indistinguishable from full functioning. I would know, I'm a CRRT success story and I've treated many many CRRT patients.

 

[WhatHowWhen]

Yeah, it's to get it done quickly and offer a redundancy of assured death. Definitely a chance of irreversible damage if it fails, absolutely. Barbiturates are hard on the body and in an overdose of them you're compromising the body's ability to breathe, to pump blood (making it less efficient to provide oxygen and remove waste). Ignoring all the other toxicity of the drug, just the impaired oxygen alone causes a major insult to the oxygen hungry structures in the body like the brain, eyes, renal system, and hepatic system. Hypoxic states always insult those structures, hypoxic states often result in brain damage which is hard to quantify and not always apparent. Easily quantifiable and readily apparent is an AKI, often people in overdoses of any kind resulting in unconsciousness and a cardiac arrest are going to require some sort of renal support up to and including CRRT. Renal damage can be and often is reversible to some extent. Like you can totally kill your renal system and have it come back to a level that's indistinguishable from full functioning. I would know, I'm a CRRT success story and I've treated many many CRRT patients.

that sucks... sn might be a better choice then

 

[schrei_nach_liebe]

that sucks... sn might be a better choice then

SN is kind of the Goldilocks method right now as far as accessibility, ease of use, likely level of peacefulness, relative safety

 

[CantDoIt]

Isn't SN also hypoxic? There hasn't been a lot of mention of possible brain damage with it.

 

[athiestjoe]

I kinda doubt anyone here would have tried thiopental for a few reasons as it is very hard to get (highly regulated) and also it is extremely effective. An oral dose of thiopental is not standard practice and may not produce the intended effects due to poor absorption but in a very large dose it would still work, just would be a lot of grams of it. IV route is much, much effective but even then being able to IV push that much of it would be a challenge to do. The LD50 of Thiopental is around 40mg/kg but in lethal injection protocols it is anywhere from 2-5 grams (the other meds in the lethal injection protocols are more for comfort but there have been some states which have just used Thiopental without other stuff). The oral route would need to be much higher than the IV dose.

Isn't SN also hypoxic? There hasn't been a lot of mention of possible brain damage with it.

Sodium nitrite itself isn't classified as hypoxic but can lead hypoxia. SN influences oxygen transport in the body by converting hemoglobin to methemoglobin, which can reduce the oxygen-carrying capacity of blood and it causes death by causing methemoglobinemia. From the various accounts of those who have survived or been 'rescued' I haven't read about any brain damage or lasting effects. I suppose with more time there may be more details on it but as of now there doesn't seem any indication it leads to any long term effects when failed. But if anyone has read more on it, definitely link it below. I suppose the best way to avoid this is to not 'fail' and make sure the SN protocol in the PPEH or SN Bibles are followed closely to avoid worrying about that.