Does Maslow's Pyramid explain suicidality?

[Pluto]

So often suicidality is described in complicated terms entailing various philosophical outlooks on life, hidden psychological struggles, the aftermath of unjust events or the ongoing impact of tragic circumstances. But I found myself wondering today if there's a much simpler explanation that could encompass all suicidal tendencies. That is, quite simply, quality of life.

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.​

The US psychologist Abraham Maslow first proposed the hierarchy of needs model in 1943, and it remains routinely cited to this day. There are some limitations with this theory, such as the practical reality that most people are not constructing their lives in a linear progression starting with physiological needs and working up to matters of life purpose. Also, certain people seem quite contented with low scores in certain categories. Yet, despite this, it seems applicable to everyone on this website so far as I can tell. Even taking extreme historical examples like Kurt Cobain, his drug issues could count as a major safety/security demerit.

Personally, I've always taken for granted physiological needs to a reasonable extent, but it has required many years of difficult and unfulfilling employment to achieve safety and security. Everything beyond that seems completely unattainable and ageing becomes a further barrier to progress. This inevitably makes for a poor quality of life and therefore a quite rational inclination towards CTB. Given how mainstream Abe's colourful little pyramid is, this should surely offer an straightforward means of rationalising and explaining the phenomenon of suicide to bone-headed normies. I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

I never made it out of the Safety Needs portion, if I even made it fully there at all. I've temporarily "bumped" up into the Belongingness & Love Needs section a time or two, but that turned out to be fleeting.

So, are you saying that if one doesn't reach the pinnacle of the pyramid, that they are "likely" to have suicidal ideation? making it to Esteem Needs isn't enough to quash suicidal tendencies? If all stages are completely fulfilled, one can't be suicidal?

 

[Darkover]

37 male lack of love is the reason why i became suicidal in the first place back when i was 18 and is the reason why i got addicted to weed and listening to music with headphones on causing tinnitus and a brain injury, 19 years without any love from the environment, plus i didn't have my basic needs meet why growing up my parents never took me to the dentist and as a result i end up with 22 cavities by the age of 18

 

[suicidalloser]

not for me, no.

 

[GasMonkey]

View attachment 115447

I like how sex is in the most important Tier.​

 

[sayire]

So often suicidality is described in complicated terms entailing various philosophical outlooks on life, hidden psychological struggles, the aftermath of unjust events or the ongoing impact of tragic circumstances. But I found myself wondering today if there's a much simpler explanation that could encompass all suicidal tendencies. That is, quite simply, quality of life.

View attachment 115445
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.​

The US psychologist Abraham Maslow first proposed the hierarchy of needs model in 1943, and it remains routinely cited to this day. There are some limitations with this theory, such as the practical reality that most people are not constructing their lives in a linear progression starting with physiological needs and working up to matters of life purpose. Also, certain people seem quite contented with low scores in certain categories. Yet, despite this, it seems applicable to everyone on this website so far as I can tell. Even taking extreme historical examples like Kurt Cobain, his drug issues could count as a major safety/security demerit.

Personally, I've always taken for granted physiological needs to a reasonable extent, but it has required many years of difficult and unfulfilling employment to achieve safety and security. Everything beyond that seems completely unattainable and ageing becomes a further barrier to progress. This inevitably makes for a poor quality of life and therefore a quite rational inclination towards CTB. Given how mainstream Abe's colourful little pyramid is, this should surely offer an straightforward means of rationalising and explaining the phenomenon of suicide to bone-headed normies. I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

All my comments are in the context of when ideation is formed after becoming adults, when ideation of formed as a child I do not have as much to say and I presume that will be different set of things and perhaps this model is not as relevant for that case. So below comments are when ideation formed after becoming adults.

I like the pyramid model, it provides a simplification to talk about different aspects. I like your even simpler sum up - it is all about quality of life. When that is below certain must have level and there is no way for looking forward to that improving then CTB falls into the realm of rational action.

Now what constitutes acceptable quality of life varies by many many orders of magnitudes from person to person.

I feel if one finds themselves NOT meeting physiological and safety needs for a long time, that can lead to CTB ideation, regardless of anything else. And quite possibly making progress towards acting on them.

If physiological and safety needs were never in question and were easily and regularly met but short of esteem and love needs for a long time, I feel it will typically be a low quality of life for those individuals. Some folks in this group I suppose will develop CTB ideation, but unlikely to act on the ideation for a long while.

If one was at self fulfillment level for a long time and falls to not able to meet physiological or safety needs quickly, that quickly leads to CTB ideation. And highly likely to progress to the next step of acting on ideations.

these are my general way of looking at this topic and ofcourse case to case might not fit any of these categories nicely...

 

[Pluto]

So, are you saying that if one doesn't reach the pinnacle of the pyramid, that they are "likely" to have suicidal ideation? making it to Esteem Needs isn't enough to quash suicidal tendencies? If all stages are completely fulfilled, one can't be suicidal?

It's certainly normal to be a bit 'all over the place' in the pyramid, which is perhaps the main criticism of it as a model.

You raise a great question. Failing in any particular area would not immediately mean suicidal ideation since very few would be a success in all areas. I live in regional Australia where many people are minimally educated and spend their lives working humble jobs. There's a certain overcompensation with a strong community and the banter that comes from all being on the same page. There is a much higher suicide rate, particularly for men, here versus the big city, though whether the lack of arts or other sophisticated endeavours is a direct cause is debatable.

The original pyramid was a bit more complicated than the simplified one I presented. At the pointy end, it gets into questions of altruism and even spirituality. But regardless, I would take a guess that if someone is well established across all categories, such a person would not be suicidal. (Also worth noting that advanced spiritual beings view death favourably and welcome it when it occurs, though that doesn't really count as suicide.)

37 male lack of love is the reason why i became suicidal in the first place

Lack of love is a huge one. My story has a lot of overlap with yours so I can feel your pain. From this perspective, it seems unreasonable for us to be expected to put up with a slow rot from this point over the next 50 years.

not for me, no.

That's fair. It's worth noting that more complex versions of the pyramid include categories like esteem, cognitive, aesthetic and transcendence.

I like how sex is in the most important Tier.​

That might be an error, since it's also 2 categories up. Or they may be distinguishing the crudest form of sexual release - as in, not necessarily including a partner, from a sense of genuine emotional and physical intimacy with another.

If one was at self fulfillment level for a long time and falls to not able to meet physiological or safety needs quickly, that quickly leads to CTB ideation. And highly likely to progress to the next step of acting on ideations.

Great points. This particularly resonated with me since when I was a young adult, I had a strong interest in arts and a 'save the world' complex, though a very toxic home environment. In effect I tried to start at the top of the pyramid in the hope that I would eventually gain an income and deal with everything else. When I didn't, I had to start right down the bottom. It has taken decades to achieve even basic security, and I lost my soul long ago.

And yes, individual cases will vary wildly for sure.

Thanks all for the great comments.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

It's an interesting pyramid. That is based on our modern society which is unnatural for human beings. Only since 10k years ago we started to form settled societies and only in the last 100 years we achieved more than we ever did before in 100 years but our basic needs are still the same because we did not have the time to adapt to the current circumstances of our environment which we are changing rapidly almost every year from an evolutionary point of view.

In very extreme cases (someone will be homeless, no income, no social contacts nothing anymore) and only the fear that this could happen one day may lead into depression with suicicdal thoughts and suicide in the end. Someone in this stage can never reach the top again which is the "goal" in our society.

I'm sure that each one in a society was important in the times when humans lived in clans in accordance with their surrounding nature and caring for the basic needs: food, water, love and self-preservation were the only important things. Like it is still will all other creatures on earth except with humans nowadays.

 

[The anhedonic one]

I've been stuck struggling with most of the safety section of the pyramid for the vast majority of my existence.
I've never been fulfilled as far as the higher sections are concerned.
I think this theory has a lot of truth to it.

 

[Forever Sleep]

In terms of my circumstances, I would agree with that pyramid. I'm failing to varying degrees at all levels apart from the bottom level. I'm grateful that at least- for now, my most basic requirements for survival are met.

I think the biggest 'problem' with humans though is this focus on our own myriad needs. Of course- that's a double edged sword. If you realise you have all these needs and are able to fulfil them- I'm sure life can be great. Still- I think it's our expectations that sometimes get us into trouble.

If we look at animals- they maybe do still need to accomplish all the levels to be the most successful. I'm not so sure they sulk as much when they fail though and I doubt they consciously think about where they are failing. They seem to just have more of a natural instinct to survive and compete.

Say- a rutting stag loses out in the mating season to a bigger, stronger male. He's already lost the top 3 tiers. If he's driven off the land and injured- the bottom two may be threatened as well. Yet- we don't generally get 100's of rejected young male stags killing themselves. (As far as I'm aware.) I'm guessing they retreat for a while, lick their wounds and build themselves up to try again the next mating season. Nature seems to make animals want to try at life relentlessly- even with what we've done to it. It seems kind of odd that we've lost this instinctual drive to suceed and be the very best we can- despite the odds. (Some of us anyway.)

I'm not so sure that our 'needs' are always genuine too. How many people are expected to get a good education, a good job, a religion, a partner, a family by their parents? Are those even their own needs? Or- is it our families/ society that tell us that we NEED to have achieved these things in life in order to have become a success? I think people become just as miserable because of the expectations they feel others are placing on them.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

Still- I think it's our expectations that sometimes get us into trouble.

The question is where the expectations are coming from. In my opinion the only expectations we need are water, food, sleep, reproduction to keep the species alive, like any other creature out there. But what is exspected within our modern society is education, being at the top, a lot of money and without money your're doomed to fail but still forced to live although there is no chance to fulfil the expected needs for the society.

 

[90starve]

at my current point in life, i have comfortably achieved both basic needs. although, i find myself inconsolably sad everyday due to a complete lack of the rest of the pyramid. it's very black and white for me.

i think, even despite its flaws, this model still holds very true to life in our modern society. the discussion has also been very interesting to read.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

and without money your're doomed to fail but still forced to live although there is no chance to fulfil the expected needs for the society.

My mother had not a lot of money, and she was quite content. I wouldn't consider her a failure in any regard. She struggled for much of her adult life just in order to maintain necessary basics in the home like food, clothing, utilities, etc. She always managed to do it, though. The simple things in life were what were important to her - children, family, love, kindness.......................

 

[Praestat_Mori]

My mother had not a lot of money, and she was quite content. I wouldn't consider her a failure in any regard. She struggled for much of her adult life just in order to maintain necessary basics in the home like food, clothing, utilities, etc. She always managed to do it, though. The simple things in life were what were important to her - children, family, love, kindness.......................

Money is an imporant factor in our society and to me personally it is essential. I have respect for everyone who manages to deal with not alot of money especially when having kids and family.

Edit: sorry pressed post to early.

 

[aGoodDayToDie]

I don't think the pyramid has much to do with suicide. Anyone can be suicidal. It just takes one element of suffering, such as mental health, which isn't even mentioned on the pyramid

 

[suicidalloser]

That's fair. It's worth noting that more complex versions of the pyramid include categories like esteem, cognitive, aesthetic and transcendence.

That doesn't either.

 

[SexyIncél]

Interesting! Maybe there's something underneath it all: "the pleasure at being the cause"? People get suicidal when this is frustrated

Maybe explains most suicides, dunno

From David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs":

As early as 1901, the German psychologist Karl Groos discovered that infants express extraordinary happiness when they first figure out they can cause predictable effects in the world, pretty much regardless of what that effect is or whether it could be construed as having any benefit to them. Let's say they discover that they can move a pencil by randomly moving their arms. Then they realize they can achieve the same effect by moving in the same pattern again. Expressions of utter joy ensue. Groos coined the phrase "the pleasure at being the cause," suggesting that it is the basis for play, which he saw as the exercise of powers simply for the sake of exercising them.

This discovery has powerful implications for understanding human motivation more generally. Before Groos, most Western political philosophers—and after them, economists and social scientists —had been inclined either to assume that humans seek power simply because of an inherent desire for conquest and domination, or else for a purely practical desire to guarantee access to the sources of physical gratification, safety, or reproductive success. Groos's findings—which have since been confirmed by a century of experimental evidence—suggested maybe there was something much simpler behind what Nietzsche called the "will to power." Children come to understand that they exist, that they are discrete entities separate from the world around them, largely by coming to understand that "they" are the thing which just caused something to happen—the proof of which is the fact that they can make it happen again. Crucially, too, this realization is, from the very beginning, marked with a species of delight that remains the fundamental background of all subsequent human experience. It is hard perhaps to think of our sense of self as grounded in action because when we are truly engrossed in doing something—especially something we know how to do very well, from running a race to solving a complicated logical problem—we tend to forget that we exist. But even as we dissolve into what we do, the foundational "pleasure at being the cause" remains, as it were, the unstated ground of our being.

[...]

"[Playing along with bullshit jobs are] not just an assault on the person's sense of self-importance but also a direct attack on the very foundations of the sense that one even is a self. A human being unable to have a meaningful impact on the world ceases to exist."

 

[Pidgeons_Sparrows]

So often suicidality is described in complicated terms entailing various philosophical outlooks on life, hidden psychological struggles, the aftermath of unjust events or the ongoing impact of tragic circumstances. But I found myself wondering today if there's a much simpler explanation that could encompass all suicidal tendencies. That is, quite simply, quality of life.

View attachment 115445
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.​

The US psychologist Abraham Maslow first proposed the hierarchy of needs model in 1943, and it remains routinely cited to this day. There are some limitations with this theory, such as the practical reality that most people are not constructing their lives in a linear progression starting with physiological needs and working up to matters of life purpose. Also, certain people seem quite contented with low scores in certain categories. Yet, despite this, it seems applicable to everyone on this website so far as I can tell. Even taking extreme historical examples like Kurt Cobain, his drug issues could count as a major safety/security demerit.

Personally, I've always taken for granted physiological needs to a reasonable extent, but it has required many years of difficult and unfulfilling employment to achieve safety and security. Everything beyond that seems completely unattainable and ageing becomes a further barrier to progress. This inevitably makes for a poor quality of life and therefore a quite rational inclination towards CTB. Given how mainstream Abe's colourful little pyramid is, this should surely offer an straightforward means of rationalising and explaining the phenomenon of suicide to bone-headed normies. I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

yeah i never got any further than safety and security

of course it makes sense, quality of life is the main factor in rational suicide, which is what this site is all about after all

when pets reach a quality of life that is deemed unacceptable, we put them down. why cant someone choose to put themselves down if they consider their quality of life to not be worth living?

 

[deleted442]

So often suicidality is described in complicated terms entailing various philosophical outlooks on life, hidden psychological struggles, the aftermath of unjust events or the ongoing impact of tragic circumstances. But I found myself wondering today if there's a much simpler explanation that could encompass all suicidal tendencies. That is, quite simply, quality of life.

View attachment 115445
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.​

The US psychologist Abraham Maslow first proposed the hierarchy of needs model in 1943, and it remains routinely cited to this day. There are some limitations with this theory, such as the practical reality that most people are not constructing their lives in a linear progression starting with physiological needs and working up to matters of life purpose. Also, certain people seem quite contented with low scores in certain categories. Yet, despite this, it seems applicable to everyone on this website so far as I can tell. Even taking extreme historical examples like Kurt Cobain, his drug issues could count as a major safety/security demerit.

Personally, I've always taken for granted physiological needs to a reasonable extent, but it has required many years of difficult and unfulfilling employment to achieve safety and security. Everything beyond that seems completely unattainable and ageing becomes a further barrier to progress. This inevitably makes for a poor quality of life and therefore a quite rational inclination towards CTB. Given how mainstream Abe's colourful little pyramid is, this should surely offer a straightforward means of rationalising and explaining the phenomenon of suicide to bone-headed normies. I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Spot on. If the first three are not met, in full, you're probably having a really rough time right now.
Because I feel helpless my view is the system is designed to keep us struggling with the bottom 3.
If you didn't receive them as a child chances are your right here right now
Be like an iceberg which the Maslow triangle turned upside down. The only condition is you have to learn how to breathe under ice cold water. We all see the tip of the iceberg and head for that. The deeper you go into the psyche the more spontaneity and creativity you will find.
This would explain why the rich and famous still kill themselves. It can only be sustainable for short periods of time.
To play at the very tips of the triangle, you're entering the death zone.

 

[suicidalloser]

Pluto, clearly you do not understand.

 

[deadliftEnjoyer]

I got to Safety and then jumped to Esteem

Amazing how damaging the lack of this little "Belonging and Love" can be