Discussion Does God want us to suffer?

[Forever Sleep]

I have to say firstly- that I'm kind of on the fence as to whether there even is a God. I'm more in the aetheist camp- although- I don't doubt completely.

I also don't want to offend anyone. I know that religion can be a real source of strength to some people and I wouln't want to knock that.

That all said though- just on the face of it- I can't help but think- IF there is a God- surely, they DO want us to suffer. If God is perfect and doesn't make mistakes- then we have been built with inherent planed and worst of all- painful obsolescence. We have also been born into a very unstable world- where all sorts of very bad things can happen AND we have the sentience, emotions and pain receptors to fully experience it happening. This has surely come about through the initial design of us and this world. Why? Why would a divine creator WANT to see it's flock suffer? Plus- if suicide is truly looked down on in religion- then it must be because we are supposed to just stay here and take it.

I suppose I'm curious as to what the religious folk out there think. What do you think the reason is behind it? These are a few thoughts I've come up with but I'm keen to hear what other people think:

- It's all for some larger lesson that we might not be able to comprehend with our human limitations.

- God isn't responsible for the bad stuff that happens- that comes from the devil. (Although- presumably Lucifer was a fallen angel and mankind had already been created by the time he was around...) If not Lucifer- then some other presumably equal- if not- more powerful figure of evil- otherwise God would kill them surely?

- God is just a creator- not a caretaker. Maybe they just go around creating life and leave it to it's own devices to develop.

- God is within us all and we are all one. So- we are not being punished by a superior force. We ARE that one force- that one entity learning all it can (via lived experience) to some mysterious end. (That again- we can't grasp because our brains are too limited.)

- God isn't anything at all like us- doesn't feel emotions or empathy. So- it doesn't even comprehend the suffering it put into motion.

What do you think though? I guess I'm just very blasphemous- if there is indeed a God. I find it easy to fear them but VERY difficult to love them- given what I've witnessed.

 

[Darkover]

No evidence, It's illogical, We don't need him
God a "maniac", large amount of unnecessary suffering in the world which, by definition he created and allows.
Life's better without him
Religion is about control and limitation. Rules, laws and rituals that restrict and govern behaviour. In some cases – say the genital mutilation of infants in barbaric rites of passage practised by religions such as Judiasm – they actually persuade nice people to do awful things.

 

[Pluto]

This is a good question. I can give a few different possible answers since there is more than 1 source that I respect. All essentially say the same thing but come at it from different angles.

1) Eastern religions
In Buddhism the highest reality is the void, which implies that no gods are present, nor needed. This is easily misunderstood as supporting nihilism, which is a product of the human mind trying to depict nothingness and drawing a bleak interpretation. The advice in this situation would be to pursue a direct experience of the real deal and not try in futility to use a feeble tool like the human brain to figure it out.

In the Hindu tradition, the higher purpose of the various gods is to anthropomorphise the ultimate cosmic entity since it is impossible for the mind to conceptualise it. Thus, the gods are like 'training wheels' as a pathway to direct experience of the one ineffable reality. Ishwara is the God in charge with creating, running and ultimately destroying the universe. However, even Ishwara is not ultimately real. The true reality is Brahman, which is the sum total of all that is. Obviously that includes 'us' when the illusion of separation is deconstructed.

Modern nonduality, which is a Western movement that aims to bypass the religious complexity in pursuit of the direct experience of oneness, tends to use the word God very sparingly due to its baggage. Eckhart Tolle uses words like 'presence', 'being' or 'the unmanifested'. Angelo Dilullo likes terms like 'living truth' or 'radical intimacy'. Such teachers are also at pains to point out that words are merely signposts and the goal is a permanent shift in identity away from the fictional, suffering, individual self.

2) Neale Donald Walsch
The best part of 30 years ago, Neale wrote a theological book called Conversations with God in which he asked everyday questions and channeled answers from a source identifying itself as God. The premise sounds ridiculous, until you actually read it. I'll do my best to sum up some key points.

Despite referencing God, it is pointed out that we are all one, and pure love is the ultimate nature of God. The physical world - which is not actually real - was created, along with all its drama and diversity, so that God could know itself. In the illusion, things other than love can be chosen, including the great polar opposite of love: fear.

All the angry, vindictive qualities of the traditional Christian God are rebuked. Free will is a birthright and there is no such thing as judgement, hell or a devil. However, there are natural consequences and it is possible for an individual to end up in a hellacious vicious circle if an entire life is built up based around fear. This is not a desirable outcome, but free will is not to be tampered with. Suffering is described as unnecessary and unwise; our purpose is to decide who we are in relation to situations, evolving over many lifetimes to eventually reach a state of spiritual mastery like Jesus, the Buddha and others.

On the larger scale of humanity, which is only one of thousands of civilisations in the universe, we are a species in a very primitive state of evolution, hence fear is the basis of our institutions. Examples cited include vast military spending yet inhumane abandonment of the starving. But because the ultimate goal is for us to ultimately know ourselves as God, merely having a cosmic parent in the sky fix our problems defeats the purpose of evolving towards ultimate truth. Utopian, highly evolved societies on other planets are described in some detail, and would make for a very interesting topic for another day.

3) Near-death studies
The contents of NDEs tend to align somewhat with the beliefs of the experiencer - for example, Christians often see Jesus - though atheism is an exception since total disbelief in the larger purpose of life is simply incorrect; such individuals tend to be profoundly transformed by what they see. In general, 'God' is a name commonly given to the great light that emanates a pure and unconditional love on a level difficult to fathom, much less describe.

A common insight people find is having chosen the circumstances of their birth beforehand, for reasons directly or indirectly related to spiritual evolution of themselves or others. There appears to be some 'work' to be done, and sometimes the point is made that the ultimate goal of life is to consciously bring the pure love of God into this realm. On the 'other side', there is no choice nor any opportunity to do this since all things remain in a state of perfection.

Hope this helps somewhat.

 

[BlackMilk]

As a catholic since birth who's always taken a bit of comfort in it, I often struggle with this question. Why would someone create me just to make me feel pain? Sometimes I wonder if we're already in Hell but we can't remember why.

 

[Source Energy]

I have to say firstly- that I'm kind of on the fence as to whether there even is a God. I'm more in the aetheist camp- although- I don't doubt completely.

I also don't want to offend anyone. I know that religion

- God is just a creator- not a caretaker. Maybe they just go around creating life and leave it to it's own devices to develop.

- God is within us all and we are all one. So- we are not being punished by a superior force. We ARE that one force- that one entity learning all it can (via lived experience) to some mysterious end. (That again- we can't grasp because our brains are too limited.)

- God isn't anything at all like us- doesn't feel emotions or empathy. So- it doesn't even comprehend the suffering it put into motion.

What do you think though? I guess I'm just very blasphemous- if there is indeed a God. I find it easy to fear them but VERY difficult to love them- given what I've witnessed.

This. This is what I believe it is. God is not a deity. All universe is energy, and all energy is conscious. We probably take a physical form and choose our birth circumstances the way we as people select the difficulty level in a video game. From our infinite intelligence perspective, this is a game. Well...it's not fun anymore once we got here.

If you're interested to explore this thought avenue, listen to Abraham Hicks on YT. Very good explanation/ analogies.

 

[unnormal9]

What do you think though?

It's a outwards delusion.

 

[iamalreadydead]

In traditional Catholicism and biblical text evidence he kind of makes a point of causing unnecessary suffering.
Not to turn this into me just rambling about stupid shit but I've been reading the Bible and it's really lame so far (maybe that's just because I'm reading the fucking new kings James version which is just a baby bible lol) but I think from everything I've gathered just from life and this new reading is that god was probably not meant to be interpreted by an audience as a real conscientious being

 

[PrisonPlanet]

I believe we live in a simulation and that whoever or whatever is in charge of the simulation is laughing at all of us. Of course they want us to suffer. They probably get pleasure watching us all suffer.

 

[Stylite]

According to the very little I know about Orthodoxy, yes. The point is that God doesn't intervene and that you are meant to be made "spiritually perfect" through suffering, as Christ himself suffered.

But why does it even matter? Whether he exists or not, whether he is this or that, or thinks this way or that way... does it even matter? You won't be able to find out in this life for sure. Dwell on other things you can find out for certain.

 

[Leiden]

It sure as hell seems like it

 

[Praestat_Mori]

If a god exists who created humans just to make them suffer that would be a sadistic god.

In my opinion we must differentiate here a bit. There's "natural physical suffering" when we become old and weak, all living creatures on earth go through this process before they die naturally. So it's not only us it's every living creature.

Then there is suffering that is kinda man made through the society we all have to live in and in my opinion most of the "mental illnesses" are caused by stress, pressure, social pressure through structures and so on. That has nothing to do with our natural way of life humans were created for. So this kind of suffering is a product of our modern society.

If there is a god so powerful to be able to create the universe he probably would not care about such a stupid species on such an insignificant planet.

 

[Forever Sleep]

If a god exists who created humans just to make them suffer that would be a sadistic god.

In my opinion we must differentiate here a bit. There's "natural physical suffering" when we become old and weak, all living creatures on earth go through this process before they die naturally. So it's not only us it's every living creature.

Then there is suffering that is kinda man made through the society we all have to live in and in my opinion most of the "mental illnesses" are caused by stress, pressure, social pressure through structures and so on. That has nothing to do with our natural way of life humans were created for. So this kind of suffering is a product of our modern society.

If there is a god so powerful to be able to create the universe he probably would not care about such a stupid species on such an insignificant planet.

Great answer. Still- presumably an all seeing, all knowing God also knows the future- or- can at least predict how his/her/its creations will evolve. I agree- many of our modern problems are manmade but God (supposedly) created mankind- knowing our potential, sneaking in those weaknesses and ultimately- our planned obsolescence. Surely they must have seen the potential for this ending for a lot of us? I would say that does make them a sadist- yes.

OR- there's something much bigger going on that my tiny brain is missing. God clearly did want us to have choice in life. But- it seems like that may have been done in order that we can be punished if we make the wrong choice. Why didn't God create us not to question then- if obedience is so important? Seems like he/she/it wants us to CHOOSE to be devoted to them despite how badly they treat us. Sounds kind of icky to me. Like the epitome of an abusive reationship.

But yeah- I've got to agree with you. If there is a God- I'd much rather picture them as a somewhat irresponsible Artist- who's much more keen on creating rather than managing. To think there is a being overseeing all this is- frankly- terrifying.

 

[internetgirl]

I wish I was fully with all my heart religious. seeing people that have full certain and belief that there is someone to guide them, they're just so happy. Whenever I think of a god, I think of why they would make the world so terrible... Even the beliefs that are like "be good to others, follow these rules, all evil will eventually pay" doesn't make all that much sense because nobodies born equal. Some people have to live a hard life, they were born into it. Others were just unlucky. There was no hope from the get go for so many.

 

[lyfsoverrated]

So disgusted and disappointed in the spirit world.

 

[suicidalloser]

 

[chahan.trading]

I don't believe in a God made by a religion. But i believe there is a supreme unknown being far greater than what BS religion is telling us.

If you ask me about God, it is "YOU" yourself alone, you create and destroy, only you made to get to where you are now. Your decisions, actions, and feelings leads you to where you are now.

You create heaven (nice living status, being in material or nice mental state) and hell (literally what it means) and those two are here right now, you create heaven and hell here in earth.

Suffering means it's possible for you to improve, to change and to be better or maybe worse. You suffer because of the actions you've taken. If you don't have that awareness, means you forgot everything and you are in the end of the line waiting to ctb (which is not a bad thing).

We all have choices, free to do so. Just to it decisively.

 

[Tortured_empath]

Hmm…

 

[forum user JJ 23/34]

A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

 

[Celerity]

If God exists, then the answer would have to be a yes in my view. At the very least, it would be God's will to have us suffer in this life. You can argue that it is a consequence of free will/fall of man, but even with that, God still chose to create what he did knowing full well the suffering that is entailed. To think otherwise, one would have to place limits on God's omnipotence and omniscience.

I am not a theologian by any means, but I believe some Christian thinkers have actually viewed suffering as a good thing and a way to get closer to God, turning the problem of suffering/evil on its head. As I have not read widely by any means as I am an atheist, the only one I can name is Simone Weil, but I know that the idea did not originate with her. Freely chosen suffering seems to be a major theme in the stories of the Catholic saints and the story of Christ himself. With that perspective, the question remaining for me is whether choosing suffering for its own sake rather than an explicit secondary goal (sacrifice to do a good work, achieving salvation) is a moral good or instead a form of self-indulgence.

 

[The anhedonic one]

I'm an atheist, yet if there actually is a God, then I am certain that it is a sadist.

I love silent hill. Have played 1, 2 and 3 several times over.

 

[suicidalloser]

I'm an atheist, yet if there actually is a God, then I am certain that it is a sadist.

I love silent hill. Have played 1, 2 and 3 several times over.

-Yep
and yep, sh3 was the first sh i played, after watching psychedelicsnake play it first; he's the reason i got into silent hill, 'cause i remember getting silent hill mixed with 'the mist' film.