Do you think there are legal ways to sue pro-lifers to legalize access to peaceful voluntary death (CTB, VAD, Euthanasia...)?

[disabledlife]

Do you think there are legal ways to prosecute pro-lifers for "acts of torture and barbarity" and "spoliation", "abuse of weakness"?

Everywhere in the world, if possible with international tribunals, peaceful death would be a human right!

I ask myself this question, because the pro-lifers do everything to force us to live, while they know full well our sufferings, pains, handicaps, mental illnesses, poverty, loneliness, rejections,... and that, above all, our wishes of being able to die peacefully and the dramatic, violent CTBs, for lack of means to die peacefully!

Forcing a person to live against their will, punishing CTB, humiliating someone for trying to CTB, lecturing them, rejecting them, calling them a coward, imprisoning him in a psychiatric hospital against his will... constitutes an act of torture, humiliation, barbarism (to force anyone to suffer against his will), abandonment, notably through social rejection, aggravation of mental illnesses.... All of this can be legally considered as torture, barbarism, which is punished in countries that are supposed to be developed, civilized! And sequestrations in the case of forced hospitalization, against the will, or even imprisonment, after an attempt at CTB,, supposedly for the own "safety", of the suicidal person (this lie could be prosecuted too, for deception)!

Such legal proceedings are possible for forcing a person to live against their will and leaving them without care, on the streets, without work, without social life... and having prevented them from CTB peacefully, having prevented them to benefit from assisted suicide or euthanasia, despite his request, to escape this forced life!

Forcing a person to live against their will, to sell drugs, (sell or rent) medical devices, wheelchairs, adapted vehicles, etc,... Forcing a person to live against their will, to place it in institutes for the disabled, psychiatric institutes, hospitals, retirement homes, ... to collect hospitalization, accommodation, care costs (pro-life doctors enrich themselves on the backs of patients against their wishes, because they look after them to make them live), etc., could be prosecuted for spoliations, and abuse of weaknesses!

All these lawsuits could make it possible to finally open the rights to assisted suicide, euthanasia, etc., at the request of the person concerned with, if refusal, threats of legal proceedings, for acts of torture, spoliation, etc.!

All these lawsuits could allow to open, finally, the rights to the CTB without risking a forced hospitalization, to allow access to the means of peaceful CTB!

 

[disabledlife]

It would be good if there were international petitions, fundraisers, etc., to help finance the media (publicize this), finance lawyers, travel to the courts, class actions, set up international associations for the international right to a peaceful life and a peaceful death.

 

[DazaiKinnie]

Do you think there are legal ways to prosecute pro-lifers for "acts of torture and barbarity" and "spoliation", "abuse of weakness"?

Everywhere in the world, if possible with international tribunals, peaceful death would be a human right!

I ask myself this question, because the pro-lifers do everything to force us to live, while they know full well our sufferings, pains, handicaps, mental illnesses, poverty, loneliness, rejections,... and that, above all, our wishes of being able to die peacefully and the dramatic, violent CTBs, for lack of means to die peacefully!

Forcing a person to live against their will, punishing CTB, humiliating someone for trying to CTB, lecturing them, rejecting them, calling them a coward, imprisoning him in a psychiatric hospital against his will... constitutes an act of torture, humiliation, barbarism (to force anyone to suffer against his will), abandonment, notably through social rejection, aggravation of mental illnesses.... All of this can be legally considered as torture, barbarism, which is punished in countries that are supposed to be developed, civilized! And sequestrations in the case of forced hospitalization, against the will, or even imprisonment, after an attempt at CTB,, supposedly for the own "safety", of the suicidal person (this lie could be prosecuted too, for deception)!

Such legal proceedings are possible for forcing a person to live against their will and leaving them without care, on the streets, without work, without social life... and having prevented them from CTB peacefully, having prevented them to benefit from assisted suicide or euthanasia, despite his request, to escape this forced life!

Forcing a person to live against their will, to sell drugs, (sell or rent) medical devices, wheelchairs, adapted vehicles, etc,... Forcing a person to live against their will, to place it in institutes for the disabled, psychiatric institutes, hospitals, retirement homes, ... to collect hospitalization, accommodation, care costs (pro-life doctors enrich themselves on the backs of patients against their wishes, because they look after them to make them live), etc., could be prosecuted for spoliations, and abuse of weaknesses!

All these lawsuits could make it possible to finally open the rights to assisted suicide, euthanasia, etc., at the request of the person concerned with, if refusal, threats of legal proceedings, for acts of torture, spoliation, etc.!

All these lawsuits could allow to open, finally, the rights to the CTB without risking a forced hospitalization, to allow access to the means of peaceful CTB!

That won't happen soon. We need strong testimony from people who wish to CTB and support of psychiatric associations that are pro-choice.
And even for euthanasia, I looked up into it(since I qualify for it) and it takes around 10k euros at Dignitas or any other clinic that performs euthanasia, so for most of us that isn't available either even if we do qualify for it. And even then there might be problems.
And another thing, most psychiatrists, and therapists consider us unable to make a decision of life and death, so chances are slim that it will work to sue them, since these people will be brought in there as the defense, people are already biased against people who want to CTB and people who defend us might get into legal issues as well, the arguments we bring up will either be dismissed due to bias against assisted CTB.
We need more professionals to back us up on this part if we want a sliver of chance of winning a case like this, even if we win we won't see it implemented soon enough for us.
Personally, we need to get more people on our side that are in this domain and do more studies(or anything that will convince pro-life(suffering) crowd

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think most of our laws work towards protecting life at all cost- rather than enabling death. Sadly- most countries simply don't recognize that our wish to die should be a right.

At least suicide itself is legal in most countries now- although- I agree with @TAW122 - it's still often treated as a criminal act- with involuntary commitment etc.

I suppose as a patient, you can refuse treatment and allow nature to take it's course. I suspect that this is in fact a major cause of death for the elderly in hospitals- all the drugs keeping them alive are withdrawn and they are kept as comfortable as possible on pain killers until they pass. I dare say some are helped along a bit.

Still- seeing as most countries don't see a peaceful death as a right- I suppose you can't insist that you are given the means to kill yourself. Seeing as there's no law to provide the right to a peaceful death- what could you sue them for?

I have wondered myself whether people who are involuntary committed could sue for kidnap- if it can't be proven that they are insane- or that they are not capable of rational thought and making decisions for themselves. Seeing as the diagnosis of menal illness seems to be so wooly- and- seeing as patients are sometimes forced to take medication- I wondered whether this could be seen as Munchausen syndrome by proxy.

The problem is free will ultimately. In most cases- as a society we do (supposedly) try to respect someone's free will. The problem is when it comes to mental capacity. As soon as it is deemed that a person is incapable of making decisions for themselves- protocols come in to action to do whatever is best for that person in order to prolong their life. The major issues as I see them are- HOW is it determined that a person has lost capacity? WHO gets to make the decisions on what happens to them?

I think- as it currently stands, all laws are geared towards protecting life and protecting healthcare proffesionals and care givers- who's job it is to protect life. So- for now- I think it would be very difficult to sue. Plus- there's no official legislation to provide assisted suicide in many countries. In fact- quite the opposite- it's still illegal. For things to actually change and presumably for people to actually be able to sue- I'm guessing laws would need to change first. A right to assisted suicide would need to be recognized legally.

 

[jruo]

The less people the less little worker bees big corporations thrive off of. There has already been a worker shortage. Suicide rates would only worsen the effect.
As unfortunate as it is, (America at least) is ran by corporations and lobbyists. If suicide made as much money as abusing minimum wage workers it would certainly be legal in my opinion

 

[TAW122]

Excellent posts as well as thread and while I wish for a world like that, sadly, in our reality that isn't the case. Similar to what @DazaiKinnie mentioned, one of the key components of victory would require having professionals in the appropriate fields (psychiatrists, mental health professionals, lawyers, and even scientists and researchers) to stand behind our cause. Sure, having activism and dialogue can open the doors, but to make any meaningful progress and real changes to policy, legal system, and more, yes we do need actual real backing to make that a reality (or even have a chance).

@Forever Sleep made very good points, and yes, our society is certainly really pro-life, as I've written in a past thread last year. As for determining mental capacity, yes there should be a standard for doing so rather than simply painting all people who want to die (even philosophical and personal reasons) as mentally ill. Then one must also change how the law handles those who are deemed 'mentally ill'. If the legal system (as well as the State) can authorize itself to make decisions on behalf of an individual, then it sets a bad precedent because this would mean it would apply to other situations as well (non-CTB related situations, but life choices and life-styles). I highly doubt the masses would be ok with a government or legal system telling them how to live their lives, and what not, so I find it hypocritical that the same masses would suddenly allow or sanction the State's authority for acting on someone they have labelled as 'mentally ill' or 'mentally defective'. This is indeed a gross violation of human rights.

Your last sentence is really true and yes I think that would be the first step towards changing our society towards more of a pro-choice, permissive society when it comes to the right to die. I also do believe that other fronts (the social and economical fronts) must be addressed as well. I think I made a thread that was like a megathread/list of the things that all needed to be addressed in tandem.

@jruo Indeed that seems to be the case now due to lower birthrates, economic slowdown, and other factors too, but I think with AI, it may alleviate some of the workforce shortage (not replace it though as some jobs and work still require human input). Regarding America, yes money is one of the biggest factors, perhaps the biggest one. I think it is possible for a way to make the right to die be more profitable and more humane than wage slavery and what not. It would however, require an overhaul of the current health system, attitudes in society, and of course laws. I do also believe that the abuse of minimum wage slavery will not last forever, at some point there will be some collapse or change since it can only go on so long (just my guess and speculation, but I could be wrong...). Then inevitable change will come and whether that may bring about legalizing voluntary euthanasia, I don't know.

 

[SoftWorries]

This will never happen. It goes against how the medical, police and justice system are set up fundamentally. There are also good Samaritan laws.

 

[Ended-up-Failing241]

The less people the less little worker bees big corporations thrive off of. There has already been a worker shortage. Suicide rates would only worsen the effect.
As unfortunate as it is, (America at least) is ran by corporations and lobbyists. If suicide made as much money as abusing minimum wage workers it would certainly be legal in my opinion

No it wouldn't. Suicide has been a sin in the vast majority of religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc) and most cultures and societies throughout time. This was well before corporations existed or even nation states. Suicide has been a sin and frowned upon because it tends to very negatively impact the family and the community at large and the rules of society exist to make sure that society remains stable.

 

[Little_Suzy]

In Switzerland, you can apply for VAD. It averages $10,000- $15,000. If they had VAD in other countries, the pricing would be comparable.

The way I see it, you can't accomplish everything in your own country, which is why people travel. You will be a VAD tourist.

You can move to a country that allows lawful euthanasia for psychiatric disorders. To get the money, research life insurance companies.

No it wouldn't. Suicide has been a sin in the vast majority of religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc) and most cultures and societies throughout time. This was well before corporations existed or even nation states. Suicide has been a sin and frowned upon because it tends to very negatively impact the family and the community at large and the rules of society exist to make sure that society remains stable.

Y'all are both correct. In general, this is a matter of religious and cultural morality that has existed from the beginning of time in most societies.

"The act of suicide is the direct taking of one's own life. Not only does this violate the Fifth Commandment ("thou shall not kill") by intending one's own death, but it is also an injustice to God and oneself (see CCC, 2281). Suicide offends God because it is an act of ingratitude and an attempt to usurp his role as the Lord of life. It is an injustice to others because it deprives them of their relationship with the person who commits suicide and deprives the world of the vocation they were meant to fulfill. It is also a direct violation of the command to properly love oneself. Remember, to love is to want, will, and work for the true good of the beloved. To properly love oneself is to want, will, and work for one's true good, which is always to become the saint one was meant to be — and this means living life to the fullest."



This is a pro-choice Catholic outlook. It is notably supportive of psychiatric disorders, which is likely owing to an increase in mental health patients suffering from despair, poverty, addiction, hopelessness, and wartime PTSD.

All this being said, the Church recognizes that in many, if not the vast majority, of suicides, the person might not have been fully free when they acted. As paragraph 2282 of the Catechism says, "Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide." Thus, we should not judge the person, but rather pray for them. It is the pastoral practice of the Catholic Church today to allow funeral services, including burial in consecrated ground, for victims of suicide.

We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repen-tance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives. (CCC, 2283)

Thus, while suicide is a very grave sin, we still keep solidarity with its victims and their loved ones by providing prayer, comfort, and support. We hold out hope for their salvation, and we offer prayer and sacrifices, most especially the holy sacrifice of the Mass, for them.

 

[Pidgeons_Sparrows]

Fucking hopefully
this.

The less people the less little worker bees big corporations thrive off of. There has already been a worker shortage. Suicide rates would only worsen the effect.
As unfortunate as it is, (America at least) is ran by corporations and lobbyists. If suicide made as much money as abusing minimum wage workers it would certainly be legal in my opinion

this. suicide was a crime in monarchies because it would deprive the king of his subjects that served him. Pro lifers and governments are all selfish fucks that mainly want to keep you alive to profit off of you

 

[OceanBlue]

It would be good if there were international petitions, fundraisers, etc., to help finance the media (publicize this), finance lawyers, travel to the courts, class actions, set up international associations for the international right to a peaceful life and a peaceful death.

There should definitely be legal funds for this, it takes a lot of time and money to go through this ordeal and a win is not a guarantee,no precendents etc. Good idea.