Discussion Do you think it’s possible for someone to be “beyond help”?

[nitrogenous]

As the title suggests, I'm wondering whether there's a point in which someone can't be help anymore.

I've been deteriorating, mental health wise, so badly over the past month due to "losing my only protective factor". I've been actively suicidal for quite a while and have made attempts in the past. Historically, I've been help-seeking. As in, a small part of me (or that survival instinct) would always kick in. However, recently, helplines and even crisis spaces have rejected me, and even kicking me out for being "in too much of a crisis" without any further support. I find this ridiculous as it's as if they're confirming with me that I'm too much. They told me that I intentionally try to trigger the workers when I told them about my struggles ??? and that I was provoking them. I feel like it doesn't make sense. I was following my safety plan, and instead almost got the police called on me (not for safety reasons, but apparently for crimes relating suicide ???).

I just want to get some insight, recovery wise, before I make my final decision of ctb or not. Although, I need more than just "go to therapy" or "take medications" as I already have them both. I have also been to the ER so many times and they always end up discharging me as apparently it is written in the notes that "I feel calmer and steadier once I wait in the ER for hours"… I genuinely think I need realistic reasons as to why I should stay on this earth. I am very isolated, with huge trauma background, so even if I leave, no one will miss me.

Thank you in advance to anyone who replies to me. I'm open for further discussion.

 

[loggingin]

depends on why you're isolated. isolation takes a huge toll mentally and physically ,it sucks the suicide line hung up on you as well. sometimes i feel like i want to leave the world because i hate interacting with most different egos, i only live because i know im not suicidal and i have a strong aversion towards death, even though i agree with promortalism and think i would be better off if i never existed.

i feel insulted by existence sometimes, like existence, the forces of biology + environment saying "you want this don't you?!?!?" while it flaunts all the possible desires in my face and i am saying "yes" while i am uncontrollably drooling for it because its outside of my control.

 

[Aunty_Seuss]

For the most part, yeah I believe there are people out there such as ourselves who will not improve in their lifetimes, it's ultimately down to your environment and your problem. For me, I'm chronically disabled and nothing will change that, and I'm severely depressed from being so. No amount of therapies, group talks, motivational BS etc. is gonna change the fact that I don't want to be disabled anymore. What pisses me off the most is how people treat you like a fucking idiot if you're disabled, shit like "Have you tried therapy?" "Have you done yoga?" Yes, I've tried helping myself, it's not magic, it doesn't work for everybody. It doesn't help I live in a shithole and I make hardly any money.

"You got schizophrenia? Got MS? Live in a shithole? One check away from being homeless? Well fuck you I guess, just stop whining and don't CTB, because then WE'LL feel sad"

 

[nitrogenous]

depends on why you're isolated. isolation takes a huge toll mentally and physically ,it sucks the suicide line hung up on you as well. sometimes i feel like i want to leave the world because i hate interacting with most different egos, i only live because i know im not suicidal and i have a strong aversion towards death, even though i agree with promortalism and think i would be better off if i never existed.

i feel insulted by existence sometimes, like existence, the forces of biology + environment saying "you want this don't you?!?!?" while it flaunts all the possible desires in my face and i am saying "yes" while i am uncontrollably drooling for it because its outside of my control.

Ah yup. I'm mostly isolated as I have traumatic background in relations to family and my so called "friends" have always been non-existent. I just feel like they already have their own inner circle that I'm not part of, hence why I never fit in. I am getting tested for ADHD&ASD though, so if I do end up having any of them, maybe that explains the isolation a bit.

I do feel that I agree with you, as in, often I just think to myself how I wish I never existed and how cruel the universe is for throwing me in this world and to experience what I'm going through. It's a common occurrence for me to hear medical professionals say "so how are you still alive?" "I would be having a heart time mentally if I was you". As I'm already here though, I often just want to rest in peace while I'm asleep and just never wake up. Knowing my luck though, I think that's very unlikely.

I also think that lack of control triggers me, same with uncertainty about the future. It's like… will things truly get better in the future? Or will I just hit another rock bottom after another one. So far, it's been the later, where it's like the rock bottom has another basement. Even when things get slightly better, it has always been the case where it gets much worse off than prior to the improvement. Hence why I believe that I might be "too much for help".

 

[scordatura]

the whole "you are too unstable to help right now" seems really common from my experience of mental health services. Way to often are people who need help, left to hang by the organisations that are meant to exist to help them.

I think many people (sadly not everyone) are not too far gone that they can't be helped, but the right support is not easily accessible, not even close. I think it's the world that is too far gone to help them, it's not their own fault.

 

[nitrogenous]

the whole "you are too unstable to help right now" seems really common from my experience of mental health services. Way to often are people who need help, left to hang by the organisations that are meant to exist to help them.

I think many people (sadly not everyone) are not too far gone that they can't be helped, but the right support is not easily accessible, not even close. I think it's the world that is too far gone to help them, it's not their own fault.

I agree… I think that maybe there's a small percentage that can't be helped, but it's mostly because when they were still able to, they get ignored. The system is just so ironically bad, it's as if reaching out for help = coming out worse after due to neglect, negative perception of being manipulative, and feeling unheard. Someone who says that they are "too unstable to get help" in my opinion just implies to them that they are out of options and they are better off gone (although I'm sure most of them don't mean it that way). It's so sad knowing the people working in the mental health system have suicide prevention training, yet the compassion that they're meant to have are just non-existent.

 

[YourLocalSadGirly]

I don't think anyone is beyond help given infinite resources and infinite patience. In reality many people are beyond help simply because others will not give them the time of day or the support or the money the need to recover.

 

[Oreki]

depends on why you're isolated. isolation takes a huge toll mentally and physically ,it sucks the suicide line hung up on you as well. sometimes i feel like i want to leave the world because i hate interacting with most different egos, i only live because i know im not suicidal and i have a strong aversion towards death, even though i agree with promortalism and think i would be better off if i never existed.

i feel insulted by existence sometimes, like existence, the forces of biology + environment saying "you want this don't you?!?!?" while it flaunts all the possible desires in my face and i am saying "yes" while i am uncontrollably drooling for it because its outside of my control.

I can totally identify with your comment. The only difference is that the concept of death feels liberating. I welcome the death of my own soul. My aversion to this world is greater than my desire for life

 

[nitrogenous]

For the most part, yeah I believe there are people out there such as ourselves who will not improve in their lifetimes, it's ultimately down to your environment and your problem. For me, I'm chronically disabled and nothing will change that, and I'm severely depressed from being so. No amount of therapies, group talks, motivational BS etc. is gonna change the fact that I don't want to be disabled anymore. What pisses me off the most is how people treat you like a fucking idiot if you're disabled, shit like "Have you tried therapy?" "Have you done yoga?" Yes, I've tried helping myself, it's not magic, it doesn't work for everybody. It doesn't help I live in a shithole and I make hardly any money.

"You got schizophrenia? Got MS? Live in a shithole? One check away from being homeless? Well fuck you I guess, just stop whining and don't CTB, because then WE'LL feel sad"

I'm sorry you're suffering. I agree with you, in a sense of bullshit fluff words such as "you need to go to therapy" "you need to take your meds" don't work. Those things don't change the problem I have. They all feel like a temporary distraction, but ultimately, I'm still a ticking time bomb on the inside. It's so frustrating, and in fact, they can in fact do the complete opposite of making things worse, making me feel invalidated, etc.

 

[Pluto]

 

[nitrogenous]

Hahahaha I'm stealing this meme, love it!!!

 

[Qilio3]

Thanks to the brain's neuroplasticity, I think miracles are possible. However, this requires a lot of resources, both external and internal. So it's a matter of luck with the initial data.
(I wonder if I'm lucky? Will I be able to take advantage of the wonders of the brain's neuroplasticity?)

 

[LastAcrobat]

Theoretically in a "perfect society" (or even just one not so hellbent on being ran exclusively by greed) everyone could be "saved" or "helped" but in this current world yeah no.

In short:
Theoretically yes
Practically no

 

[nitrogenous]

Thanks to the brain's neuroplasticity, I think miracles are possible. However, this requires a lot of resources, both external and internal. So it's a matter of luck with the initial data.
(I wonder if I'm lucky? Will I be able to take advantage of the wonders of the brain's neuroplasticity?)

Ah yup, I totally forgot about this whole topic. I remember being sooooo interested in this. I heard that TMS is one of the greatest therapy that utilises neuroplasticity, although, I think, my TMS did nothing than building the "wrong" kind of networks as I remember crying a lot during TMS sessions thinking about how "horrible" my previous psychiatrist was. So perhaps, my brain is now filled with the wrong kind of networks.

Theoretically in a "perfect society" (or even just one not so hellbent on being ran exclusively by greed) everyone could be "saved" or "helped" but in this current world yeah no.

In short:
Theoretically yes
Practically no

Yeah, I guess it relates back to the fact that our current mental health system (practically anywhere in this world) is broken. Soooo many workers lack compassion and are just doing their job for the money or for the sake of it, often making patients/clients feeling worse off coming out than coming in, and then blaming the patients after once they are close to ctb for "not seeking help".

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think we can get to a point- whether we are beyond help or not- when we no longer accept help. I'm terribly stubborn. I won't always take advice- no matter how well meaning it is. So- there's that element. Are we really willing to let go of the unhelpful coping mechanisms we have picked up? Are we really willing to face our deepest fears on a sometimes flimsy hope of getting better?

Then, there are the conditions themselves. If someone is suffering from anhedonia say- are there long- term treatments that will be effective against that or- anything else that decimates our quality of life? I don't think there always are.

So- I do think some conditions and people must be very hard to treat. Plus- how much have they got in the tank to keep going? I think that's the bigger issue.

 

[mimimisaki]

In general, I think the only people who can truly be considered "beyond help" are those that have labeled themselves as such, deciding that no matter what things will not change. The only ppl who can't be helped are the ones that aren't ready/willing to accept that help.
Being realistic, I don't think mental illness can be cured, so probably we will never rly be 100% okay, but that doesn't mean that you can't get better. I know many ppl who struggle with mental health but have found a proper medication, a support network, and have worked on themselves through therapy, learning more coping mechanisms etc. So nowadays although they still have bad episodes form time to time, they are able to enjoy the majority of their days.
I'm rly sorry you have been struggling so much, and the fact that you've been denied help from places which were supposed to be built precisely for these situations is beyond fucked up. But that's on them, not on you. Being in "too much of crisis" is not and will never be a thing. Struggles are struggles, and no matter how bad things are I think help always exists out there, it's just a little harder to find sometimes (speaking from experience).

 

[nitrogenous]

I think we can get to a point- whether we are beyond help or not- when we no longer accept help. I'm terribly stubborn. I won't always take advice- no matter how well meaning it is. So- there's that element. Are we really willing to let go of the unhelpful coping mechanisms we have picked up? Are we really willing to face our deepest fears on a sometimes flimsy hope of getting better?

Then, there are the conditions themselves. If someone is suffering from anhedonia say- are there long- term treatments that will be effective against that or- anything else that decimates our quality of life? I don't think there always are.

So- I do think some conditions and people must be very hard to treat. Plus- how much have they got in the tank to keep going? I think that's the bigger issue.

I think that's a really good perspective and reflection you bring there, mate. I very much agree with everything you said. Wilfulness is definitely something a lot of people (including me) struggle with, although in saying so, sometimes the unhelpful coping mechanisms are the ones that keep us somewhat "alive" physically. I've seen this quite a lot on social media about "if you have to use unhealthy coping mechanisms to keep yourself alive then use them". It's definitely not easy to tell someone who's suffering to just randomly have a "happy life" again. Plus sometimes, due to how the mental health system is all over the world, they are often more harmful, than helpful, unfortunately.

In general, I think the only people who can truly be considered "beyond help" are those that have labeled themselves as such, deciding that no matter what things will not change. The only ppl who can't be helped are the ones that aren't ready/willing to accept that help.
Being realistic, I don't think mental illness can be cured, so probably we will never rly be 100% okay, but that doesn't mean that you can't get better. I know many ppl who struggle with mental health but have found a proper medication, a support network, and have worked on themselves through therapy, learning more coping mechanisms etc. So nowadays although they still have bad episodes form time to time, they are able to enjoy the majority of their days.
I'm rly sorry you have been struggling so much, and the fact that you've been denied help from places which were supposed to be built precisely for these situations is beyond fucked up. But that's on them, not on you. Being in "too much of crisis" is not and will never be a thing. Struggles are struggles, and no matter how bad things are I think help always exists out there, it's just a little harder to find sometimes (speaking from experience).

Thank you a lot for your kind words. I think it is indeed really fucked up, when I was very much help seeking, they keep on "pushing my buttons", rejecting me, writing in the notes how I'm "manipulative", despite all I want was to be seen and heard as a human being. I am afraid that I am going to be close to consider myself as "beyond help" due to these past experiences, I just don't seem to fit in anywhere in the system and it's really frustrating. The fact that my mind is split into "I want to ctb so badly" vs "I want to live my life" is very conflicting too. I don't have much support around me. I do have them on paper, but in reality when I come to them for help, they often cause more harm than good.

 

[mimimisaki]

Thank you a lot for your kind words. I think it is indeed really fucked up, when I was very much help seeking, they keep on "pushing my buttons", rejecting me, writing in the notes how I'm "manipulative", despite all I want was to be seen and heard as a human being. I am afraid that I am going to be close to consider myself as "beyond help" due to these past experiences, I just don't seem to fit in anywhere in the system and it's really frustrating. The fact that my mind is split into "I want to ctb so badly" vs "I want to live my life" is very conflicting too. I don't have much support around me. I do have them on paper, but in reality when I come to them for help, they often cause more harm than good.

Yeah, I've also had some pretty awful experiences with mental health services, I'm sorry they haven't treated you properly.
The fact that you are split between the two thoughts means you haven't given up on yourself yet. I truly hope you can find some better ppl to support you, and if nothing else I'm sure there are people on this forum, myself included, who would love to help when possible, even if that's just through venting and chatting for a bit.

 

[nitrogenous]

Yeah, I've also had some pretty awful experiences with mental health services, I'm sorry they haven't treated you properly.
The fact that you are split between the two thoughts means you haven't given up on yourself yet. I truly hope you can find some better ppl to support you, and if nothing else I'm sure there are people on this forum, myself included, who would love to help when possible, even if that's just through venting and chatting for a bit.

Thank you! I'm actually so conflicted. A few days ago, prior to buying my means, I was very much sure I was going to CTB and succeed this time. I'm so confused why ever since I've bought the means (it hasn't even arrived), I've been so peaceful? It's almost as if my suicidality decreased by heaps... I'm not sure if it's true peacefulness or if this is actually a red flag as I often heard of people feeling much better right before committing. I kind of feel I'm already too far deep. If I tell my medical professionals about my mental headspace and actions lately, I'm so sure they are going to escalate this into calling the ambulance and potentially putting me under the mental health act...

 

[nitrogenous]

I don't think anyone is beyond help given infinite resources and infinite patience. In reality many people are beyond help simply because others will not give them the time of day or the support or the money the need to recover.

I love how supportive your comment is. I think in an ideal world, I very much agree with what you said. It's just sad seeing the world we are in right now… I don't even know if the system can be improved given how many people there are only working for titles, money, and authority without any compassion or empathy.

 

[MAKE IT STOP!]

I don't think so. I thought I was that way at first. But now that I'm in intensive therapy, I have hope.

 

[nitrogenous]

I don't think so. I thought I was that way at first. But now that I'm in intensive therapy, I have hope.

I'm so glad and happy to hear it that way for you! I'm still at the crossroad right now. I know if I tell my professionals in all honesty, I'd get hospitalised… therefore making it more difficult as I think if I'm not honest, then the therapy wouldn't even work in the first place…

 

[FadingSnowFake]

I'm truly sorry for what you are going through, the way you are being treated is just unforgivable. I said Yes but allow me to explain. I think a person could just "lose it" as in that response to trauma which is too much to accept. In that state I don't think a person can be helped. A friend of mine, e.g., lost her mother and a few weeks later her husband due to sudden illness. Her husband was her whole world, and after an argument with the family about which church should be used for the memorial, she simply shot herself. Now, if the gun was not available, I believe she would've probably found another way soon to ctb. However, if delayed for whatever reason, even though her mind could never be unbroken, over time there could've been a possibility of healing to a certain extent. But if we don't recover enough, and the trauma continue to be too much to process, I think we remain in survival mode to protect ourselves, in constant flight/ fight/ freeze mode. And if we can't feel safe again, we get stuck in this mode.

If the trauma and the ripple effects thereof become too much, the mind will decide if/when it is beyond repair. When exhausted with no more energy, and seeing no future, help becomes not an option anymore. But while we still reach out for help, we are not beyond help and the system cannot make that decision for us. Similar to a person dying of a physical illness like cancer, the body will keep on fighting and only shuts down if it fails to fight the disease. This can be overnight or over years, depending on the severity of trauma.
If a treatment doesn't work, or helplines don't know how to help, it doesn't mean we are beyond repair. The system is failing, and someone who hasn't been here where we are, cannot empathise or help. So, I think up until the time when/if the mind decides we are irreparable, we are not "beyond help". Of course, circumstances will also determine our mindset. I hope I'm making sense, as I'm writing as someone who is still in flight/freeze mode, unwilling to accept the reality which was caused by trauma.

A few days ago, prior to buying my means, I was very much sure I was going to CTB and succeed this time. I'm so confused why ever since I've bought the means (it hasn't even arrived), I've been so peaceful? It's almost as if my suicidality decreased by heaps... I'm not sure if it's true peacefulness or if this is actually a red flag as I often heard of people feeling much better right before committing. I kind of feel I'm already too far deep. If I tell my medical professionals about my mental headspace and actions lately, I'm so sure they are going to escalate this into calling the ambulance and potentially putting me under the mental health act...

I can relate to this, on receiving my SN, it was like relief came over me. Having the means for when I need it feels way better than not having it. I feel I have more control now. If you are conflicted, I'd give it more time. If you know how the system would respond, I'd consider avoiding them for a bit to "reset" by myself, especially if they have been failing you. It's hard to have a support network, because people irl cannot or may refuse to understand. I also think SaSu is probably the best network of people who could relate, empathise and even help. I haven't been in the recovery section of the forum as I'm not there yet, but I see that you are posting from it, and your topic caught my attention. I hope you find answers to what you are looking for within yourself, and I wish you only the best on the path you choose. From what you described, I don't think you are "beyond help"

 

[nitrogenous]

I'm truly sorry for what you are going through, the way you are being treated is just unforgivable. I said Yes but allow me to explain. I think a person could just "lose it" as in that response to trauma which is too much to accept. In that state I don't think a person can be helped. A friend of mine, e.g., lost her mother and a few weeks later her husband due to sudden illness. Her husband was her whole world, and after an argument with the family about which church should be used for the memorial, she simply shot herself. Now, if the gun was not available, I believe she would've probably found another way soon to ctb. However, if delayed for whatever reason, even though her mind could never be unbroken, over time there could've been a possibility of healing to a certain extent. But if we don't recover enough, and the trauma continue to be too much to process, I think we remain in survival mode to protect ourselves, in constant flight/ fight/ freeze mode. And if we can't feel safe again, we get stuck in this mode.

If the trauma and the ripple effects thereof become too much, the mind will decide if/when it is beyond repair. When exhausted with no more energy, and seeing no future, help becomes not an option anymore. But while we still reach out for help, we are not beyond help and the system cannot make that decision for us. Similar to a person dying of a physical illness like cancer, the body will keep on fighting and only shuts down if it fails to fight the disease. This can be overnight or over years, depending on the severity of trauma.
If a treatment doesn't work, or helplines don't know how to help, it doesn't mean we are beyond repair. The system is failing, and someone who hasn't been here where we are, cannot empathise or help. So, I think up until the time when/if the mind decides we are irreparable, we are not "beyond help". Of course, circumstances will also determine our mindset. I hope I'm making sense, as I'm writing as someone who is still in flight/freeze mode, unwilling to accept the reality which was caused by trauma.



I can relate to this, on receiving my SN, it was like relief came over me. Having the means for when I need it feels way better than not having it. I feel I have more control now. If you are conflicted, I'd give it more time. If you know how the system would respond, I'd consider avoiding them for a bit to "reset" by myself, especially if they have been failing you. It's hard to have a support network, because people irl cannot or may refuse to understand. I also think SaSu is probably the best network of people who could relate, empathise and even help. I haven't been in the recovery section of the forum as I'm not there yet, but I see that you are posting from it, and your topic caught my attention. I hope you find answers to what you are looking for within yourself, and I wish you only the best on the path you choose. From what you described, I don't think you are "beyond help"

Thank you so much for your response! It means a lot to me, especially as it seems that you put so much effort into it

I'm really sorry for you, your friend and your friend's family, I can't help but think how devastating that is. Starting to grief for one of their closest person ever in their life and then having to repeat the whole grief process in such a short time sounds so difficult. I do agree with the fact that means restriction often doesn't necessarily mean safety. If someone has made up their mind to do something, I think it's very human to try and find alternatives to still achieve it. Perhaps, that's why we both have the relief over the SN we have… Rather than having to keep on being on edge finding sources and researching the whole internet, it's the kind of relief that the whole "uncertainty researching" phase is over.

I am definitely very afraid of losing my "help-seeking" attitude, and in fact, I can see myself slowly losing so. With repeated shame and judgement I got everytime I tried to get help, I often wonder whether it's still worth it to want help. It's as if seeking help usually only makes things worse. I think that's why I enjoy being on SaSu ever since I've discovered it, as people here are way more compassionate to one another, and even in every subsection there is here, the reactions and replies are mostly (with heavy moderation ofc) appropriate according to the purpose (suicide discussion, recovery focused, off-topic etc).

I think that when my SN finally arrive, I will definitely give more time to think about what to do with it. Especially since somehow my suicidal ideation, planning and intensity decreased after ordering it. Perhaps, all I needed was the sense of control… If there is one thing I've learned from this forum, it has taught me about how impulsive attempts are usually not the best, as again it all comes down to choice and we should all be thinking carefully about our choices (no matter what the choices are, as we all have authority for our own body). Unfortunately, in real life, people (so called "friends") have often time added to my trauma symptoms instead as they all just never seem to understand how mental health related problems can impact someone that much.

I thank you a lot for your kind words once again, you somehow gave me that hope and convinced me that I should give it another try of going through life first and just keep the SN somewhere safe for now (hopefully I can figure something up to reduce the impulsivity of using it without proper preparation). I wish you all the best in your mental health journey too, in whichever direction and pathway you choose