Discussion Do you think for those who went through barbaric (and painful) means to CTB overrode their SI?

[TAW122]

Note: I am not a doctor nor a medical expert, but this is something that I thought about from time to time, especially the people who have successfully CTB'd albeit with great discomfort and/or pain.

So this thread poses the question of "Do you think for the people who attempted (and actually succeeded) CTB via barbaric and violent (likely painful) methods somehow managed to override their SI despite the pain?" If that is true and they manage to do so, then this begs the other question, "Is it possible that when the pain exceeds a certain threshold, then even physical pain and discomfort, will somehow 'override' one's survival instinct?"

Perhaps I already answered my question, but sometimes I wonder for example, "the burning monk" in 1963, who protested the Vietnam war, how did the monk manage to be engulfed in literal flames and still be able to go through it? Wouldn't the monk's survival instinct stop the monk from feeling pain somehow or something else is at play? Keep in mind I'm an atheist and do not follow any religion nor believe in any God(s), but I feel like there must be something that the monk (or some people in this world) did in order to push through the immense amount of pain and suffering while going through such violent, brutal, and very agonizing methods.

Big disclaimer: I do NOT advocate for such brutal, violent, and very agonizing, painful methods! In fact, if one has other means to find peace, it is recommended to look for those instead.

I do know that if I were in that situation, most likely I'd be screaming in agonizing pain (assuming I had the capacity to scream despite such tremendous pain and suffering) and my SI would be overboard fulldrive trying to either avoid the flames (unsuccessfully), put out the flames, and this isn't even considering possibly failing and surviving, suffering third degree burns along with the consequences of the aftermath.

 

[CompanyOpossum]

I think if you reach the point that you have such control over your mind then you likely have no reason to ctb. You'd probably have to let go of whatever was pulling you towards ctb and let it go in order to reach that control.

I don't think he did it because he wanted to die. I think it was important enough for him to die and whatever method he used to gain control of his brain lasted long enough for him to go through with it.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I guess for anyone who succeeds in CTB- their pain/decision has become stronger than their SI.

I wonder if we all have different amounts of SI. Is it only pain- or- the possibility of pain that we fear? People who do sky diving or base jumping must surely consider the possibility that something MIGHT go badly wrong- yet- they still do it. Maybe we all need to become thrill seekers to practice!

Some people (even here) seem to think they deserve pain- or that maybe by going through it- they will achieve something perhaps. I guess the monks have such a strong conviction. They are self martyring.

I guess we're also afraid of the unknown. Even drinking a glass of N must take guts. I wonder if people in assisted suicide clinics still experience SI.

 

[NoLoveNoHope]

I think with extreme agony the SI would stop and they'd simply find it unbearable and proceed further in desperation. Instead of their panic for survival - it's not for death to release themselves from the current pain by any means necessary.

It's definitely an interesting subject though, thanks for bringing it up.

 

[FuneralCry]

It's hard to say really, but maybe the mindset that they were in allowed them to overcome the survival instinct and succeed in ctb. The self immolation method sounds particularly horrific to me, and maybe with some other methods people put themselves in a situation where they cannot back out of it, like how you hear of people drowning from ending up in water that is very deep. But anyway it does sound like it would be really unbearable trying to succeed with such a brutal method, I don't know how they did it.

 

[conflagration]

Monks literally train 10h per day for decades to override their SI through meditation and faith.

 

[TAW122]

I think if you reach the point that you have such control over your mind then you likely have no reason to ctb. You'd probably have to let go of whatever was pulling you towards ctb and let it go in order to reach that control.

I don't think he did it because he wanted to die. I think it was important enough for him to die and whatever method he used to gain control of his brain lasted long enough for him to go through with it.

That is an interesting take and while his motivation to CTB isn't the same as most people's, it is unique in the sense that he is able to pull it off. I personally wouldn't be able to do that, my SI would be too high for even methods that are remotely painful or uncomfortable.

I guess for anyone who succeeds in CTB- their pain/decision has become stronger than their SI.

I wonder if we all have different amounts of SI. Is it only pain- or- the possibility of pain that we fear? People who do sky diving or base jumping must surely consider the possibility that something MIGHT go badly wrong- yet- they still do it. Maybe we all need to become thrill seekers to practice!

Some people (even here) seem to think they deserve pain- or that maybe by going through it- they will achieve something perhaps. I guess the monks have such a strong conviction. They are self martyring.

I guess we're also afraid of the unknown. Even drinking a glass of N must take guts. I wonder if people in assisted suicide clinics still experience SI.

I believe we all do have different amounts of SI. I believe it is the pain as well as the fear of nothingness (non-consciousness) that cause our biological mechanisms to kick in and involuntarily override our willingness to go through an action. I believe that somehow the monks managed to override such a mechanism through meditation and faith. As for people in assisted suicide clinics, I wouldn't be surprised if there are those who still have to struggle with SI, especially those whose body and mind are well aware that the one action will lead to oblivion and nothingness.

I think with extreme agony the SI would stop and they'd simply find it unbearable and proceed further in desperation. Instead of their panic for survival - it's not for death to release themselves from the current pain by any means necessary.

It's definitely an interesting subject though, thanks for bringing it up.

So in a sense, I guess this means that one's suffering is so immense that even one's own SI will not stop them from going through and that instead, it has a paradoxical effect such that a person will just instead, push through one's own biological self-preservation instincts?

It's hard to say really, but maybe the mindset that they were in allowed them to overcome the survival instinct and succeed in ctb. The self immolation method sounds particularly horrific to me, and maybe with some other methods people put themselves in a situation where they cannot back out of it, like how you hear of people drowning from ending up in water that is very deep. But anyway it does sound like it would be really unbearable trying to succeed with such a brutal method, I don't know how they did it.

Yeah I was thinking that the mindset is a really huge factor and since they have braced themselves with it, perhaps they trained mind and body to undertake such pain and somehow be able to turn off/ignore the pain receptors long enough to go through the grueling and agonizing pain of self-immolation. I too, do not recommend such methods as most people's SI would long stop them from even considering such a method let alone attempting it.

Monks literally train 10h per day for decades to override their SI through meditation and faith.

Yes, that is a big factor indeed.

 

[NoLoveNoHope]

So in a sense, I guess this means that one's suffering is so immense that even one's own SI will not stop them from going through and that instead, it has a paradoxical effect such that a person will just instead, push through one's own biological self-preservation instincts?

I made a typo while writing that I meant to say it would probably push them towards death. I've thought about similar things before and I can to the conclusion myself I would rather just end it all ASAP than endure any more pain.

My idea was that the panic from SI would be used to further injury themselves as to get the pain over and done with. It'd be so agonizing that every will to continue would vanish.

That's just one theory I was putting out there though.

 

[leavingsoon99]

You'd kinda have to overcome your SI. If you remember the movie "Robocop", the SI is kind of like the program 'Directive 4'. Overriding it could have major existential implications to it. It's hard to do, but it can be done... as I'm learning. At some point, life isn't worth living. Think of the "burning building" analogy.

 

[pharmacoepia]

The monks did it because they have the idea that their sacrifice will bring attention to a danger to society. Essentially, there SI is eroded because they have trained themselves to believe that their SI is worthless and that the greater and spiritual good of humanity should be prioritized.

As for if the SI gets overrided, I've heard that for some people, they get a release of calm as if they are in acceptance. Others panic and stress even more, not knowing that the SI is precisely helping whatever has damaged the body from losing more of its precious energy.

I think the second question depends on the person, but the first question is proof that monks are really strong.