Do you think be smart/high iq makes you to CTB?

[EndJstifiesTheMeans]

I think yes, to be honest, can't explain really good but i think it's like

"if you are smart you can see more problems" for exemple i dont think people with down syndrome are suicidial.. because they can't understand the problems, maybe im wrong idk

 

[lethargic]

You will find studies that claim yes, studies that claim no and studies that claim 'we could not find any correlation between IQ and suicidality'.

Personally I don't think abstract problem-solving intelligence has anything to do with this. It's obviously multifaceted but I think socialization and social vulnerability would be way larger factors, alongside stuff like how naturally apathetic you are towards things, emotional sensitivity, shit like that. If you think about it then all you would need to fix your suicidal ideation is a superpower to literally just stop caring about things and play with the cards you're dealt to the best you can. That is also how most people on Earth operate.

I wouldn't even go so far as to say that trauma is necessarily correlated with suicidality, although I haven't looked into this. I would imagine that trauma is correlated with antisocial behavior, which can manifest in multiple ways. Usually it leads to people just becoming criminals.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think there is a correlation between high intellect and depression and that people who CTB are quite often depressed I imagine.

I agree with you that in part- their annalytical mind likely plays a part in it. Seeing things for how they really are. Questioning everything.

I also think it's to do with the whole 'missed potential' thing. People who know they have potential may feel more disappointed if they don't realise it. They may feel more like a failure in life. Plus, it can feel deeply frustrating when you aren't able to use your skills to the full. Life can become very boring and unfulfilling. I even have 'normie' friends who feel unsatisfied with their careers because they simply aren't being stretched and their skills aren't being recognised.

 

[lethargic]

I think there is a correlation between high intellect and depression and that people who CTB are quite often depressed I imagine.

I agree with you that in part- their annalytical mind likely plays a part in it. Seeing things for how they really are. Questioning everything.

I also think it's to do with the whole 'missed potential' thing. People who know they have potential may feel more disappointed if they don't realise it. They may feel more like a failure in life. Plus, it can feel deeply frustrating when you aren't able to use your skills to the full. Life can become very boring and unfulfilling. I even have 'normie' friends who feel unsatisfied with their careers because they simply aren't being stretched and their skills aren't being recognised.

Intelligent people are less likely to let their potential to go to waste. IQ, as controversial as it is, is one of the greatest predictors of wealth and income. IQ has strong positive correlation with wealth and income. Simultaneously, intelligent people are more likely to understand their own biases and shortcomings, thus making the best out of a bad situation. If you want to string two correlations together, which you shouldn't ever do, then low IQ is correlated with suicidality, because poorer people are more likely to kill themselves.

But I still think IQ has barely anything to do with it. For men, even their height is a stronger predictor of suicide than IQ is. There was a strong inverse association between height and suicide risk. In fully adjusted models, a 5-cm increase in height was associated with a 9% decrease in suicide risk.

 

[Professor K]

First of all what is being smart?
You're smart as a result of an exterior evaluation: you're only smart because somebody says you are.
People will call you smart if you succeed in fulfilling their values, so it can be social, religious and political thus solely subjective.
Then there are people who seem to have something that most people don't have.
They skip years of school and seem to learn faster than others are said to be geniuses etc.
Others are said to be emotionnally intelligent.
These individuals will suffer from being qualified different, being misunderstood and from being hyper sensitive.
Autistic people who struggle socially have a short life expectancy because they CTB soon for exemple.
Yet autistic people aren't seen as smart except is they have ''asperger superpowers'' like those who are geniuses at maths music or languages.
Others are qualified and feel different, they see things from a different perspective said to be wrong.

I had a friend who skipped years of school and was in senior high at only 15.
He got bullied by grown men aged 18, was depressed, got rejected from an art school, his art was considered ''too strange and eccentric' because he was inspired by Tim Burton, Henri Selick, Beksinski and Edgar Poe.
He ended up CTB.
I think that he was no different then people his age when it comes to other aspects, other than academics.
They thought that since he can learn arbitrary school disciplines faster, then he is ready to grow up faster too. (physically, emotionally)
At only 15 he had to begin adult life.

And the belief that ''smart'' people are good at school is also wrong to me.
Not all ''smart'' individuals with skip years and become successful academically at all.
But if you fail at school, if you're depressed and don't fit in then you're mentally deranged, schizophrenic anything that has a negative connotation culturally.

Then this widespread belief that ''intelligence'', ''high IQ'', ''greater awareness'' is a virtue and is super special and cool...
IQ and intelligence is based on your ability to be a valuable member of modern society and your ability to propagate culture well.
From their POV it is a super power that will help society and is very valuable. Realistically, it is only beneficial to others but leaves the individual to suffer.
It is especially true for people who have emotional intelligence, their empathy and kindness only benefit others who might not even give anything in return.

If technology was to vanish right now and we were all naked, forced to survive in nature, then what will intelligence mean?
Intelligence is only relevant to our current context of an industrial society, at least for academic intelligence.

What will you do with this greater awareness other than suffer because of the way things are in this current society?
Somehow this makes us ''sapiens'' and more enlightened than hunter-gatherers.
Awareness is the problem for all of us to begin with. We weren't depressed as toddlers yet we felt basic emotions and needs the same way we do now.
So now imagine having an even greater awareness starting at an even younger age.

Overall intelligence is seen as super special and if you are intelligent (according to their definition), then you will be praised and adored by others.
But will it make you content on the inside?

 

[CW36]

Ignorance is bliss. I think the simpler someone is the more content they'll be in life. They'll be doing that same simple job for decades, they'll laugh at the bottom of the barrel jokes, they'll eat the same meals everyday, they'll never leave their hometown and they'll schedule fish and chips on a Friday without fail. Stereotypes are real and I say lucky them. They don't beat themselves up to the same degree, they just get on with life. But the super smart will constantly crave change and need to achieve more and more. Self awareness is a double edged sword, but there's no denying people at the top have will less friends, because finding genuine is hard enough at any level, and most will not stimulate them or even be worthy of their presence. If they're lucky, they'll see the world for what it could be tomorrow and strive to achieve it, but if not, they'll see the world for just how plain pointless it is.

 

[carac]

Intelligent people are less likely to let their potential to go to waste. IQ, as controversial as it is, is one of the greatest predictors of wealth and income. IQ has strong positive correlation with wealth and income. Simultaneously, intelligent people are more likely to understand their own biases and shortcomings, thus making the best out of a bad situation. If you want to string two correlations together, which you shouldn't ever do, then low IQ is correlated with suicidality, because poorer people are more likely to kill themselves.

But I still think IQ has barely anything to do with it. For men, even their height is a stronger predictor of suicide than IQ is. There was a strong inverse association between height and suicide risk. In fully adjusted models, a 5-cm increase in height was associated with a 9% decrease in suicide risk.

I think you are right (you actually made me change my vote from yes to no) I would point out there are exceptions like in my case. I had a lot of potential, did very well at school but then at 18 was struck down with mysterious health problems. What made it worse was it was an invisible condition and one I didnt like to talk about. So on the outside in was this intelligent, healthy young man but on the inside I was completely restrained.

 

[HappyForever?]

I'd say that it's a mixed bag. Intelligent people are more aware of reality, and are less likely to live in ignorance or denial. However, I think this might be more related to empathy. The more empathetic smart people feel the suffering going on in the world, and feel depressed as they are powerless to help. The more selfish smart people don't care about the suffering, so they exploit the system for personal gains, most of the time at the expense of others.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

I think suicide has nothing to do with IQ. It's a logic and rational decision for someone personally under given circumstances.

 

[kindalone]

I think one aspect that smart or intelligent people go through when they feel the urge to ctb is maybe realizing that there is not much they can change with the abilities or resources they have been given. Oftentimes, they run into walls that are illogical and often artificial, being placed by people for selfish and emotional reasons. They feel a lack of control and fatality. Of course, not everybody is like that. Intelligence, in my opinion, just makes you realize how fucked you are a lot faster. Other people who are intelligent are blessed with good resources and can thrive and feel hope in taking control. They know they can do great things and change their environement. Others realize that no matter how much work they put in, the outcomes often depend on factors beyond their control and could end badly. Like a guy using his intelligence to write or create art. He is brilliant but his recognition depends on the people understanding his artistry. In science, it may be easier to thrive, thanks to the nature of being able to prove your findings or at least there is an accepted language which makes your thought process coherent and understandable. Art is different. You have to count on people understanding your thought process. In science, you aren't readily to admit that you don't get it. People may call you stupid. Art is subject to the observer's critique. If the observer doesn't like it, it's not good art. What I'm trying to say with this is maybe intelligent people just are more able to realize how much control they have over their fate and may feel the urge to ctb if they find out they have none whatsoever.

 

[lethargic]

I think you are right (you actually made me change my vote from yes to no) I would point out there are exceptions like in my case. I had a lot of potential, did very well at school but then at 18 was struck down with mysterious health problems. What made it worse was it was an invisible condition and one I didnt like to talk about. So on the outside in was this intelligent, healthy young man but on the inside I was completely restrained.

Yeah of course, there are always exceptions. When a conclusion says that you're 98% likely to be something, that still means that one person out of every 50 is not that thing.
My belief is that serious long-term suicidality is an inherited trait and is nearly entirely genetic. This isn't proven, it's just my theory. I would love to see if anyone has studied this, but I'm pretty sure that for most people who successfully went through with suicide -- whenever that happened to be, their beliefs around suicide actually stemmed from a very early age, teenagehood perhaps. I'm 24 now but I remember having my first thoughts at like 15 years of age. I can't find any other explanation for this except that a cluster of genes gone wrong decided to completely rail me.
Relatively speaking I am in a really okay spot, I'm financially quite secure and make a decent living, and I seem to be the most miserable out of all of my peers, some of which have gone through far worse shit than I have.

 

[KarmicRain]

I wouldn't necessarily say IQ since people can be a "genius" in a vast array of subjects, moreso than the capacity to really think about everything as a whole.
I grew up with straight A's and got into college with a pretty solid gpa but look where that got me. no where. I feel like more "intelligence" (just thinking more) as a whole generally just leads to everyone finding the same damn answer: it's fucking pointless. The more you think about it, the more evidence and reasoning you get that backs how little living actually means.
of course you could use that argument to just say "if it doesn't matter what you do, than do what you want" but that's a bit impossible when attaining the bare fucking minimum is near impossible. (food+ housing+ basic welfare) But even after that, if you just never had anything you really wanted to do, you either get to slowly wither away or writhe in a pit of endless grind.
If intellect is defined by ability to reason, than those who think the most are the smartest but in turn find out how shit things really are.
if instead it's defined by the ability to act in a meaningful way, then call me an idiot lol.

 

[Archness]

At some point with very personal and subjective things, IQ doesn't really makes your answer more "correct", it just makes you able to articulate, understand, support, and describe the causes/reasoning behind it.

Big-brain doesn't make people suicidal itself, but when they're already suicidal then it comes into play. The more/better you can think it through the more certain you can become in the decision to ctb.

When you're very emotional and rushing to ctb it's easy to somehow swing the other direction and fail. But when you're experiencing a lack of feeling and thought it all through already it's basically over.

Basiclly, IQ can be usefull to change variables to improvelife and minimize ctb rates. But when those variables are unchangeable, such as autism or other brain-defects (surprisingly likely for extremely high intelect ppl), then it can make them much more likely to ctb. You really can't simply "out-think" depression/suicidallity.

 

[Ambivalent1]

The smart are more lonely. Most people are unrelatable and simple. Books become your only friend.

 

[𖣴 nadia 𖣴]

Intelligent people are less likely to let their potential to go to waste. IQ, as controversial as it is, is one of the greatest predictors of wealth and income. IQ has strong positive correlation with wealth and income. Simultaneously, intelligent people are more likely to understand their own biases and shortcomings, thus making the best out of a bad situation. If you want to string two correlations together, which you shouldn't ever do, then low IQ is correlated with suicidality, because poorer people are more likely to kill themselves.

But I still think IQ has barely anything to do with it. For men, even their height is a stronger predictor of suicide than IQ is. There was a strong inverse association between height and suicide risk. In fully adjusted models, a 5-cm increase in height was associated with a 9% decrease in suicide risk.

This is so reductive and elitist, the greatest predictor of wealth, income and success isn't IQ, it's inherited wealth/generational wealth. Young people from wealthy or financially stable families tend to stay wealthy regardless of their IQ because they're given better resources, support and opportunities. A lot of generational wealth historically came from things like exploitation, colonialism and slavery rather than strictly hard work or intelligence.

Wealthier kids have advantages like inheritance, stable housing, a safety net to fall back on, family funding for their business start-ups and investments to grow their wealth, nepotism and connections for job opportunities or work experience, being able to afford extra tuition, better schooling, and Higher Education fees without accruing ridiculous amounts of debt. Having a safety net also gives them an opportunity to make high risk - high reward decisions like venturing in to unstable but highly lucrative fields such as Entertainment or Business.

They have more opportunities and fewer hurdles than people from poorer backgrounds who have to contend with medical debts, student loan debts, discrimination, the housing crisis, cost of living crisis, the responsibility of financially supporting their families, lack of support for unpaid carers, mental health issues worsened by financial stress, etc.

These aren't exceptions to the rule, they're widespread problems. When combined with the current economic climate and late-stage capitalism, it means that upward social mobility between classes for poor kids with a high IQ is so rare it's almost a myth, especially for the current generation. Whereas downward mobility is increasing, the wealth gap is increasing because it's more difficult for people to get out of poverty.

 

[sanction]

I think to a certain extent, yes. Since you're able to see through a lot of the actual bullshit in this world and realize how pointless everything really is. However, I think in the end, it mostly has to do with the quality of your life. Under normal circumstances, lets say you have great health, have financial freedom, and also relationships that give you meaning and feel loved, which results in life feeling more fun, enjoyable, and at least more bearable, I don't think CTB would so easily be on your priority. As you would be too busy focused on lets say building new businesses, projects, or hobbies. Or spending time with loved ones, enjoying delicious food and drinks, travel to different places, spend more time in nature, indulge in love experience with the opposite sex, maybe even look forward to yearly gatherings with friends and families at birthdays, Christmas parties, reunions, etc.

Unfortunately, 80% of the general population simply does not live like that. We're all stuck at a 9 to 5 job for 40 years like a slave, stuck in traffic 2 hours per day Monday to Friday commuting to work, stressed about bills, in debt, and finally when we have some "free" time, we are busy going to grab groceries, cook, clean, busy in the bathroom, and maybe only have enough time to watch some TV or YouTube for an hour or 2, before we need to head to bed right away, otherwise can't wake up on time for work the next morning. And then before we know it, our health starts declining, and then different bullshit of life just keeps crushing us, and we're always either behind, or trying to play catch up, always on a hamster wheel

In conclusion, if you're quality of life is great, or even have some luck, lets say born into rich family, then even if have high IQ, still will find it okay to live, since everything is flowing smoothly. Mainly it is quality of life that determines it. Although I understand where you're coming from. Since 80% of people either have shitty lives, or pretty pointless lives, yet still continue to live without CTB, so seems like most people have low IQ. But at the same time, probably just stuck as well (e.g. family, etc.) and also afraid to CTB

 

[lethargic]

This is so reductive and elitist, the greatest predictor of wealth, income and success isn't IQ, it's inherited wealth/generational wealth. Young people from wealthy or financially stable families tend to stay wealthy regardless of their IQ because they're given better resources, support and opportunities. A lot of generational wealth historically came from things like exploitation, colonialism and slavery rather than strictly hard work or intelligence.

Wealthier kids have advantages like inheritance, stable housing, a safety net to fall back on, family funding for their business start-ups and investments to grow their wealth, nepotism and connections for job opportunities or work experience, being able to afford extra tuition, better schooling, and Higher Education fees without accruing ridiculous amounts of debt. Having a safety net also gives them an opportunity to make high risk - high reward decisions like venturing in to unstable but highly lucrative fields such as Entertainment or Business.

They have more opportunities and fewer hurdles than people from poorer backgrounds who have to contend with medical debts, student loan debts, discrimination, the housing crisis, cost of living crisis, the responsibility of financially supporting their families, lack of support for unpaid carers, mental health issues worsened by financial stress, etc.

These aren't exceptions to the rule, they're widespread problems. When combined with the current economic climate and late-stage capitalism, it means that upward social mobility between classes for poor kids with a high IQ is so rare it's almost a myth, especially for the current generation. Whereas downward mobility is increasing, the wealth gap is increasing because it's more difficult for people to get out of poverty.

I didn't say it was the greatest predictor. I said it's one of the greatest predictors, and it is. I understand that if you live in the US, this over time has likely stopped applying as much, because your policies essentially keep poor people in poverty. There are plenty of countries where this isn't the case, and in a place with at least partially publicly funded higher education that doesn't make you stuck in a debt spiral, escaping poverty or growing wealth is entirely in your own control, it just takes planning, budget management and going through the education streamline. That's what I have done and what plenty of others have done, despite the fact that during my first semester I was even homeless for a time. It's actually you who is pretty reductivist, to basically imply that people have no agency whatsoever. I'm not talking about BlackRock or Rothschild billionaires here.

Now, that being said. Taking on a $100k+ student loan during a time when higher degrees are in more supply than ever before and when you're competing with immigrants who got theirs for free is a pretty fucking stupid move. If I lived in the US and I didn't have access to debt-erasing higher education, I would have gone for a trade instead, or considered doing the military. I had to do a year of military service for free because I'm mandated to do so lol meanwhile Americans get a gorillion benefits for doing it. It's actually great to live in the US if you're debt-free.

 

[Daft-Bear]

So, I'm not sure if intelligence would make someone more likely to CTB. I think of intelligence as a tool, when misdirected it can cause problems. I don't believe we evolved to be smart, I think most of our brain is emotionally based. As such, we feel things and retroactively try to justify them. If you are trying to justify negative emotions and you have a lot of intelligence, you can dig yourself into a hole by seeing more and more of the problem.

The main factor for CTB, and if I'm wrong someone please correct me, is a lack of control of one's life/circumstances. If you are depressed but believe you can solve your problems, then you'll keep fighting. We didn't evolve to kill ourselves, the human race would have died long ago otherwise. If the steps you take markedly improve your life, then you feel like you are in control again. However, if the things you did didn't markedly improve anything, fixing things starts to feel out of the question. CTB becomes the last bastion for control.

Smart people would be able to figure out ways to fix their life, but they can also figure out all the ways in which they can't. I think the focus/energy would be dictated emotionally. But your emotions are dictated by things like nutrition, exercise, sleep, relationships, and purpose. Often times you are completely unaware of how these things dictate your mood.

There's evidence that low IQ people are more likely to CTB, and that makes sense to me tbh.

But… the more you fixate on something, the stronger those neural pathways become. If you aren't actively trying to change them, your brain defaults to the strongest pathways (the road it's gone down before) rather than seeing a novel way to approach the situation.


When my IQ was tested, I was a few deviations above the norm (85-115) but… I became afraid to try new things for fear of looking stupid, I didn't want to let my parents down, and ultimately underachieved at everything as a result. I also struggle to relate to the things others find interesting. Can't say I care much about celebs or sports.

 

[𖣴 nadia 𖣴]

I didn't say it was the greatest predictor. I said it's one of the greatest predictors, and it is. I understand that if you live in the US, this over time has likely stopped applying as much, because your policies essentially keep poor people in poverty. There are plenty of countries where this isn't the case, and in a place with at least partially publicly funded higher education that doesn't make you stuck in a debt spiral, escaping poverty or growing wealth is entirely in your own control, it just takes planning, budget management and going through the education streamline. That's what I have done and what plenty of others have done, despite the fact that during my first semester I was even homeless for a time. It's actually you who is pretty reductivist, to basically imply that people have no agency whatsoever. I'm not talking about BlackRock or Rothschild billionaires here.

By excluding all the other predictors, the point of your post was that poor people are in their predicament mostly because of a low IQ whereas intelligent people have 'pulled themselves up by the bootstraps.' I didn't imply that people have zero agency, I pointed out just a few of the many obstacles that explain why social mobility is so rare for so many people around the world and why I'd never presume that a poor or unsuccessful person has a low IQ and vice versa. I didn't use my experience to make blanket statements about people's success, IQ and suicide on a global level so I don't see how anything I said was reductive.

But if we're using personal anecdotes to make points about global trends then I should mention that I know someone who also went through the academic route and is being paid almost half the salary of her male colleague in the same role (who is known for doing the bare minimum and has barely 2 months more experience). Income inequality is just another factor that keeps people in poverty and in debt and often has nothing to do with performance and IQ.

When I mentioned generational wealth and all the advantages of it I wasn't talking about billionaires, I was thinking about examples of people I know who can immediately afford housing and business investments because of generational wealth and the huge difference that has made to keeping them out of debt.

As others have already mentioned, there are so many factors out of our control, some I haven't mentioned, such as disability which is why most of the time, having a high IQ isn't enough for people to make the best out of a bad situation. The other thing you glossed over was the point about mental health. Children from poor socioeconomic backgrounds are 3 times more likely to suffer from severe mental health problems because of their quality of life, and that impacts their academic performance and their future career, regardless of their IQ.

I agree about the system in America, but to put things in to perspective - despite how bad it is, it is still ranked higher for social mobility than most other countries around the world and the UK isn't much better. The cost of education isn't the only problem in developed countries, and then there are issues specific to developing countries such as conflicts, drug trafficking, wars etc.

Now, that being said. Taking on a $100k+ student loan during a time when higher degrees are in more supply than ever before and when you're competing with immigrants who got theirs for free is a pretty fucking stupid move. If I lived in the US and I didn't have access to debt-erasing higher education, I would have gone for a trade instead, or considered doing the military. I had to do a year of military service for free because I'm mandated to do so lol meanwhile Americans get a gorillion benefits for doing it. It's actually great to live in the US if you're debt-free.

I don't live in the US but even if I did I wouldn't be salty about undocumented immigrants fleeing the violence in Latin America and being given a chance at higher education. If you're lucky enough to not be born there it's easy to lose perspective on how bad the situation is for ordinary people there. Some politicians like to pit the most disadvantaged people against each other to deflect away from the people who actually have the power to reduce inequality, that tactic works on some people but not all of us.

People who are getting degrees aren't doing so because they're stupid - a degree unofficially became the minimum requirement for almost every job. I know people in recruitment who've said CVs are usually filtered out by non-graduates even when a degree isn't a listed requirement for the job, so ending up with student debt, on top of other issues, is not as optional as it used to be.

 

[mothercoin]

I think yes, because when you are smart you tend to overthink things, when honestly just taking action would be the best thing to do. And logic leads to fear which kills the innate love and courage and bravery in your heart. That's why kids tend to be happier than adults I think. Because they don't have so much knowledge, they are more open to everything, more loving, more giving , more innocent and that's the state of mind that makes people happy.