Discussion Do you support the ideology of anti-natalism?

[Specific_Milk]

Definition of Anti-Natalism: the philosophical position that views birth and procreation of sentient beings (including non-human animals) as morally wrong.


I don't want to know WHY you support (or indeed do not) support it, I just want to find out HOW MANY people do. So, keep the debate to a minimum is what I'm tryna get at. PLEASE VOTE CAREFULLY AS YOU CANNOT CHANGE YOUR VOTE, this is to avoid the Bandwagoning effect.

 

[borderline-feline]

I'm not particularly sure how I feel about anti-natalism. I've checked out some interviews with David Benatar about the asymmetry between pain and pleasure, and I do agree with that aspect to some extent. A lack of potential pleasure doesn't have inherent badness in the way that a lack of guaranteed pain has inherent goodness.

I think my first introduction to concepts involved in anti-natalism was from reading the novel Kappa by Akutagawa Ryūnosuke, and it may be worth noting that Akutagawa-sensei ended his own life at the age of 35. There was a particular moment in the novel when a kappa asks its unborn whether or not they wish to be born. One of them in particular responded with "I do not wish to be born. In the first place, it makes me shudder to think of all the things I shall inherit from my father—the insanity alone is bad enough." It was a powerful scene that really got me thinking about the fact that people don't really have any choice in whether or not we're brought into this world.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

I wonder how general attitudes toward reproduction would be if there were a higher chance of getting a child like me and certain others here. As it stands it's probably less than a .03% chance of producing a child whom existence has harmed and who has never felt anything but regret for their birth. Say it was a 40% of getting that vs. a regular normie. Would society find that risk acceptable? Or would it be more supportive of suicide?

 

[Source Energy]

Yes. convinced anti-natalist and efilist here. How can one be suicidal and not be anti-natalist, idk. Not to think that you are taking a gamble with your kids fate.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Yes- in terms of a theory and definitely in terms of my choices. No- in terms of activism. I don't understand why people bring children into this world given the enormous risk. Still- I don't hate people who have children. I just hope that their children will be ok.

 

[epic]

99% of people live a long, fulfilling and meaningful life except for the last few days when the disease gets bad .
EDIT: Based on personal experience

 

[exhaustedanonymous]

99% of people live a long, fulfilling and meaningful life except for the last few days when the disease gets bad .

i doubt this statistic. where did you get that

i'm not an anti-natalist, i dont think having kids is wrong. i do things parents need to realize the tremendous responsibilities that come with kids and have to self reflect on if they can actually, actually, actually handle that. too many people have kids they shouldn't have had

 

[epic]

i doubt this statistic. where did you get that

Based on personal experience

 

[WorthlessTrash]

Only because I am biased and wish I was never born :(

 

[Jarni]

Based on personal experience

It depends on country......

 

[StringPuppet]

I used to but not anymore

 

[spiritedspirit]

Life is NEVER good even if you live rich . It's gonna end and death is inevitable.
Do you wish to create the guaranteed murder of your child?? Any sane person would answer no to this question.

 

[FuneralCry]

Of course antinatalism is what makes sense. Choosing to procreate is something that is so shameful and unnecessary and it could never be justified to create more suffering. Existence is something so that is so incredibly harmful because of all the risks that come with it, to bring life here so selfishly certainly is a tragedy. Nobody should ever procreate.

 

[vultureilse]

i dont think people shouldnt be allowed to bring life to this world i just think that people who dont want to be alive should be allowed to leave. you dont choose to be born so you should at least have the choice to end your life on your own terms

i dont think that having children is wrong though i mean i personally wish i was never born and i cant imagine myself fully enjoying life no matter what the circumstances are but most people do want to live. of course suffering is inevitable and the world is cruel but there are tons of people who want to go on despise the hardships

 

[kazewoatsumete]

In life there is inherent suffering and it may often seem disproportionate to the joy that is felt— that is simply part of the human condition. I believe resilience is a huge factor in whether or not someone is able to have a fulfilling life outside of what is basically just the RNG events that play out in our own lives. I have met many miserable people or people in horrible situations who are quite passionate that they are still grateful to be alive. I think the lot of us on this site are just too worn down to truly believe that or have it be true, but it is not representative of the norm.
With that said, I don't think reproduction is bad. I work with very young children and see the innocence and joy in their faces. They are basically good beings that generally enjoy life. Their experiences that early on are special and beautiful. With supportive environments, that sense can be nurtured into adulthood. I want humans to feel joy, so I think it is generally good when they are born. Children should be raised and had responsibly and carefully to prevent suffering, and I guess that's where I stand on that.

 

[western_heart]

Voted yes, but it's a soft yes. If there was an in between option I would have chosen it

 

[etale-cohomology]

I'm not particularly sure how I feel about anti-natalism. I've checked out some interviews with David Benatar about the asymmetry between pain and pleasure, and I do agree with that aspect to some extent. A lack of potential pleasure doesn't have inherent badness in the way that a lack of guaranteed pain has inherent goodness.

I think my first introduction to concepts involved in anti-natalism was from reading the novel Kappa by Akutagawa Ryūnosuke, and it may be worth noting that Akutagawa-sensei ended his own life at the age of 35. There was a particular moment in the novel when a kappa asks its unborn whether or not they wish to be born. One of them in particular responded with "I do not wish to be born. In the first place, it makes me shudder to think of all the things I shall inherit from my father—the insanity alone is bad enough." It was a powerful scene that really got me thinking about the fact that people don't really have any choice in whether or not we're brought into this world.

(Sorry for this being off-topic, I would PM you but I haven't yet posted enough to unlock PMs)

That novel sounds super interesting; I've been wanting to read more Japanese literature for quite some time now, but hadn't yet found a novel which really picked my interest... Do you know any other Japanese ones similar to Kappa? (Novels available only on Japanese/untranslated are fine too)

 

[SamTam33]

Yes.

It doesn't matter that some people are happy once they get here. They still contribute nothing to improve the experience of others. So they're just as useless and unnecessary as everyone else.

There is no correlation between happiness and usefulness.

Just because you're happy to receive something (life) doesn't mean you deserve it.

Unless we're willing to eliminate as much suffering as humanly possible - we shouldn't here.

And nothing in our history suggests that the elimination of suffering is high on anyone's list.

We're much more enamored with individual happiness...

 

[vultureilse]

If I saw you irl oh man..

wdym

 

[spiritedspirit]

wdym

You are evil.

 

[vultureilse]

You are evil.

huh? why?

 

[Mr Myemna]

how i see it is that while i do agree that the suffering we experience far surpasses our pleasures, i don't really support anti-natalism because of its lack of practical application.

Don't get me wrong, I really like it's philosophical implication, you shouldn't have kids if you're aware that you aren't capable of getting them through their vulnurable phase, you shouldn't have kids if you're uncapable of offsetting the effects the genetic maladies you might pass down to them on their lives, you shouldn't have kids unless you're well versed on how to raise a kid to be best fit for the environment they find themselves in. in short, you should consider put how the child might feel before you conceive them, and be ready to accept it if they deceide to forsake this gift which you bestow upon them, only a bully forces a person to eat a slice of cake after it is rotted or starts to taste of fermentation.

but then again, there is no practical way to achieve complete anti-natalism, even if voluntary extinction were to be achieved, which is extremely unlikely to happen almost impossible, people will procreate no matter how much effort everyone puts into preventing it, it's in our biological hardwiring. but if it does, the most we will do is set up the stage for another sapient species to take our place, our biological niche, effectively restarting the game. those species will have to contend with another version of history which is most likely, just as, if not more miserable than what we had and we have to contend with throughout our time.

it is best if we continue our existence, and change our socio-economic status our social arrangement and cultures to be more welcoming to those who choose to live, and accepting of those who choose to die, i made another forum discussing this topic in a bit more detail: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/some-thoughts-about-life-as-it-currently-stands.109163/

to conclude, i don't think misery is inherent to our human experience, it's only made to look like that by those who fund our education of our histories to maintain the social arrangement that puts them in power. our misery is caused by our socio-economic setting our current material conditions, a state that is very recent in our history.
it's best if we put our efforts into changing our social arrangement to be more humane, more egalitarian and just, instead of letting the people who serve to maintain our misery go unchecked.

Thank you for reading!! go and see my other forum for more details

 

[alivefornow]

No, because I'm aware my experience does not pertain to everyone. I'm anti-me.

 

[Lost in a Dream]

I am an anti-natalist, but I don't really care enough to argue about it anymore. I used to hate people who brought kids into the world and I know I sound like an angry asshole for saying it, but that's just what I am. Fortunately I don't feel that hatred anymore, so I guess my views are more like this now:

Yes- in terms of a theory and definitely in terms of my choices. No- in terms of activism. I don't understand why people bring children into this world given the enormous risk. Still- I don't hate people who have children. I just hope that their children will be ok.

It's probably a good thing to adopt anti-natalism as a philosophy and go with it, but we can't convince others that anti-natalism is correct if we turn judgemental about it. I'm always hoping that all the kids being born will be okay too, but I'm afraid for the ones that end up like us.

You are evil.

So much for keeping debates to a minimum...

 

[epic]

People voting "yes" do realize that anti-natalism is the end of human race right ?

 

[SuicidalSheep]

If you have empathy for suffering and value ethics then I think it's the only logical conclusion.

People voting "yes" do realize that anti-natalism is the end of human race right ?

So? That's survival instinct bias talking.

 

[Lost in a Dream]

People voting "yes" do realize that anti-natalism is the end of human race right ?

Only if everyone becomes anti-natalist, but that's probably not going to happen any time soon. I think most anti-natalists are just trying to prevent more suffering by not contributing to it. I wouldn't want to bring a kid into the world and have them end up like me, so that's why I'm still an anti-natalist right now.

 

[SamTam33]

People voting "yes" do realize that anti-natalism is the end of human race right ?

Of course we do.

The human race isn't needed. Its existence isn't desirable or necessary to anything but us.

 

[Forever Sleep]

People voting "yes" do realize that anti-natalism is the end of human race right ?

Yes- personally I think this planet would be far better off without us. Even better if we die out before working out how to spread ourselves onto more unsuspecting planets out there. What's more cruel? To never have been born in the first place, or to die from a disaster brought about by climate change? As the millennia go by- I imagine these freak disasters will only happen more and more. I'm just happy that none of my offspring will have to deal with it.

 

[Anhedoniac]

People voting "yes" do realize that anti-natalism is the end of human race right ?

That's even more of a reason to support it