Do you guys think the ethos behind capitalism and neoliberalism make us more depressive and suicidal?

[VivaldiBR]

Things like individualism, competition, meritocracy, professional success, comparison, perfect life, perfect body, perfect face, perfect relationship, and other cultural imperatives and social problems. Wouldn't the ideal be to change this system that makes us sick? I'm not saying that everyone gets sick for these reasons, but a large majority is.

 

[dontwantocareanymore]

Absolutely. I do not at all believe humans are meant to live like the majority do, in their respective societies.
There's less money to be made off of authenticity. Evil & it sucks.

 

[MichaelNomad123]

I believe that modern living is not compatible with fundamental happiness. Happiness is always going to be an acutely subjective topic, but I believe it's possible to narrow down a universal, basic human happiness to factors such as having purpose, being healthy and having meaningful relationships with other humans. I would take the evolutionary perspective on most issues and say simply that we are socially evolving too quickly. We have not adapted past a nomadic lifestyle yet. Furthermore, purpose and meaning is so unique to each individual that you need time and space to cultivate it, but we can't because we are thrust into this idea that we must work to death and THAT will give us purpose. Work for money. Work for material.

This ties in with these grand notions of capitalism and neoliberalism and whatever else at the base hook of materialism. The pursuit of wealth, and through that, power, has remained exactly the same since the time of monarchs. If you compare the power structure to kings of old, it's exactly the same. Where you have a power of one or few over many, you still have the power of one or few over many. Kings, presidents, corporations, barons, sultans, lords, ladies. It doesn't matter. It's just all about money, material, wealth and therefore power.
These systems have not changed in essence because there is no invested interest to change them. There is no change because the comparison exists between you and a billionaire. If you ignore quantity and circumstance, you can easily bypass any scrutiny by just saying, "well you need to work harder".

You are fed a lie from birth, essentially. Work hard and you will achieve great things. Contribute and pay your taxes, you will be rewarded. It is a false promise, for a start. Secondly, and more important to this discussion -- it won't bring you happiness because we are not wired that way. Your fulfilment doesn't come from someone else. It doesn't come from serving an abstract notion of a system. It is yours and yours alone. Failure or inability to grow that results in depression or worse.

So the system is flawed, to begin with. It is unchanging because the powerful hold the keys. The lie that it is founded on means that you will never have fulfilment. This becames very apparent in times of economic, political and social strife, like 2020 for example. Some people are more sensitive to this than others. That's human variance. Some people are smart, some people have shitty lives, some people have opportunities and never have to confront this problem until their midlife crisis. Ultimately though, we all get depressed. We all lose our way, because our modern society is built that way to serve the few. Who cares if a few people kill themselves if it works? That's the logic. If it isn't broken, why fix it?

This is abhorrent of course, but that's where we're at. We're unfortunately stuck between times right now. We are on the cusp of significant change or significant more-of-the-same while it all falls apart. I personally believe that the only solution is to kill the rich, plunder their dragonhoard and re-assess our legislation at a fundamental level. Gandhi was the modern mans biggest mistake. Peaceful protest does nothing when you're dealing with psychopaths and they are psychopaths. The only way is violence. Enough is enough, you know?

 

[VivaldiBR]

This is abhorrent of course, but that's where we're at. We're unfortunately stuck between times right now. We are on the cusp of significant change or significant more-of-the-same while it all falls apart. I personally believe that the only solution is to kill the rich, plunder their dragonhoard and re-assess our legislation at a fundamental level. Gandhi was the modern mans biggest mistake. Peaceful protest does nothing when you're dealing with psychopaths and they are psychopaths. The only way is violence. Enough is enough, you know?

That's it. I totally agree with it. Your entire comment was wonderful, actually.

 

[lugerepair]

Yes, I definitely think so. If you believe that we live in a meritocracy, and you also happen to not be achieving "success" in life, you'll blame it on yourself. You'll think it's because you don't deserve success.

But what good even is success in this society? Sometimes I think to myself "I wish I had millions of dollars". But then I realize that if I did have that much money, my friends would still be working full-time and they would have no time to hang out with me. I could perhaps buy them apartments and food so they wouldn't have to work, but then they would feel weirdly indebted to me and I'd feel like they're now only friends with me out of obligation. It would be weird. The other option would be to become friends with other rich people and become completely out of touch with the rest of society. But I would still have to live with the knowledge that countless people are still stuck working in jobs they hate, living in apartments they can barely afford. Our society's idea of success only feels like it if you don't give a fuck about other human beings.

"Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all", as the song goes.

 

[NeverEndingProblem]

I hate that in capitalizim there are so many losers suffering what seems in unnecessary way. Its the only system we have though. We wouldnt be here sitting here tapping on our IPAD's or whatever without it. I had every opportunity as a young person to take advantage of the 'Capitalzim system' and blend in with everyone else - but I screwed up badly somehow and now I live on the fringes with severe mental illness. Darwinism maybe? When you have all day to think about these things you can justify all sorts of nonsensical theories about the 'right way' or 'the wrong way' how the world should be lol. The fact of the matter, is technology is driving EVERYTHING now incredibly fast and thanks to capitalizm we are getting further and further away from our true human nature which is to be social creatures (like most animals) that look after each other. Everythings turning into a futuristic dystopian nightmare these days, and its strange because I used really enjoy hollywood movies of that nature.lol. Perhaps my best course of action is to stick around watch the crazyness unfold and try and not let it bother me too much. I might look into that Stoicism stuff to help me cope.

 

[Gnip]

I've known too many people from Nazi Germany and the former Soviet Bloc to buy into this. Capitalism and neoliberalism are convenient scapegoats for anybody living in modern Western culture, but while the USSR had to build a wall to keep people in East Berlin, the United States is building a wall on its southern border to keep people out. Why is that? Why is it that people from impoverished nations are risking their lives and dying to get from socialist dictatorships to western democracies?

It doesn't seem like that many are dying or risking their lives to reach mainland China, North Korea (where they mandate how to wear your hair), Iran or certain other nations.

How many homosexuals would like to move to the Russian Federation?

Winston Churchill said about democracy, "It's the worst form of government, except for all the others."

Maybe we need to take a look at population growth to see who the favored nations are.

Yes, my life sucks, or I wouldn't be on this site. But I'm under no illusions that my life would be somehow better elsewhere. In 1846, Henry Thoreau wrote in Walden, "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." For most of humanity, life has never been a picnic anywhere.

Many females in the United States yell for "equality." How would they feel if the US went to war and they were drafted for military combat just like the men would be. (A number of female combat veterans would tell you you're nuts. Incidentally, getting knocked up is no longer enough to get you discharged. During Vietnam, being gay was enough for men to get out of service.)

 

[GravityUtilizer]

Oh hell yeah.

This article's interesting ('Why work more than 15 hours a week?'):

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/...458LCrBpSjjFsecKkEX0Yq9gA1p-h3_q-_arZZHfu4iuw

 

[oktnn50md]

I think I'd be doomed in any society with my genes, liberal democracy or socialism or khanate.

 

[VivaldiBR]

I've known too many people from Nazi Germany and the former Soviet Bloc to buy into this. Capitalism and neoliberalism are convenient scapegoats for anybody living in modern Western culture, but while the USSR had to build a wall to keep people in East Berlin, the United States is building a wall on its southern border to keep people out. Why is that? Why is it that people from impoverished nations are risking their lives and dying to get from socialist dictatorships to western democracies?

It doesn't seem like that many are dying or risking their lives to reach mainland China, North Korea (where they mandate how to wear your hair), Iran or certain other nations.

How many homosexuals would like to move to the Russian Federation?

Winston Churchill said about democracy, "It's the worst form of government, except for all the others."

Maybe we need to take a look at population growth to see who the favored nations are.

Yes, my life sucks, or I wouldn't be on this site. But I'm under no illusions that my life would be somehow better elsewhere. In 1846, Henry Thoreau wrote in Walden, "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." For most of humanity, life has never been a picnic anywhere.

Many females in the United States yell for "equality." How would they feel if the US went to war and they were drafted for military combat just like the men would be. (A number of female combat veterans would tell you you're nuts. Incidentally, getting knocked up is no longer enough to get you discharged. During Vietnam, being gay was enough for men to get out of service.)

The discussion is not about capitalism x socialism. Its only about capitalism contradictions as a economic and social system. I dont know whats the best system but i know the actual one is not good at all.

 

[Aap]

Communists - Capitalism is evil because people are selfish, individually motivated, and will seek to hoard more and more resources.

Also communists - communism will work because people will work for the common good.

OP, compare the East and west German suicide rates and get back to me.

 

[NeverGoodEnuff]

Capitalism is evil because people are selfish, individually motivated, and will seek to hoard more and more resources.

Also - communism will work because people will work for the common good.

OP, compare the East and west German suicide rates and get back to me.

If "people are selfish, individually motivated, and will seek to hoard more and more resources" under capitalism, why would they not do that under communism? It isn't capitalism that makes people like that. It is basic human nature.

NK's leader is not poor. Putin is not poor. Venezuela's leader is not poor. There is no middle class under communism. China is improving, or at least it seems that way, because they have instituted capitalistic business practices.

At least under capitalism, you can choose to not work and be poor. Under communism (correct me if I am wrong), you will work at whatever job they tell you. Or else. Is that correct?

 

[Breadbfra]

Neoliberism doesn't actually exist in the whole world right now. America is more of a corporativist state, rathen than liberist one as in the 90s.
I truly believe in Social Democracy, as the one implemented in Germany, Belgium and nordic countries. The whole country will always protect you no matter what.
A stateless society (Marx - Engels' prediction on communism) can't be reached, and I believe Statalism isn't socialim but just state capitalism.
Italy was a socialist paradise in the 60s-70s until late 80s. Three months vacation, you could retire at 35 years old, free transport, free tv, everything owned by the state and by 90s we had the worst public debt/pil ratio in the whole world. Now we're suffocating from taxes.
Do I believe in a less capitalist world? Yes, I do. But do I believe at the same time it would stop suicides? No I don't. Look at Iceland, Norway, Sweden and Denmark suicides rate.
But yes, generally soeaking capitalism models are truly asphyxiating. I don't think we have a choice though.

 

[Aap]

You obviously missed the sarcasm in my post, which underlies the basic paradox of why communism has never and will never work. The same people who say capitalism is evil because people are selfish are the same people who say communism would work because people will work for a collective good.

There was a good der speigel article in the 80s which compared the suicide rates in East vs west Germany. The East German rates were much worse.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

If "people are selfish, individually motivated, and will seek to hoard more and more resources" under capitalism, why would they not do that under communism?

Because there would be economic mechanisms in place to stop that happening.

At least under capitalism, you can choose to not work and be poor.

Can you? Under a pure capitalist system you would just starve and die. The only reason this doesn't happen in most capitalist nations is because of the welfare state, minimal (but insufficient) levels of wealth redistribution through taxation etc, which are not capitalist ideas, they are socialist.

 

[Aap]

Your abject disregard for history is showing. Care to tell the class how many died in the Soviet Union of starvation and prison camps? What about in China under the great chairman mao's reformation? What about Cambodia? North Korea? Laos? Vietnam? Right now in Venezuela? Communism claimed over 100 million bodies in the 20th century during periods of PEACE, many times the total of all the wars in the 20th century, including due to that shithead in Germany.

Can you starve due to communism? Yes, yes you can.

 

[Ren Elsie Jewelria]

Things like individualism

Why individualism?

 

[esse_est_percipi]

You obviously missed the sarcasm in my post, which underlies the basic paradox of why communism has never and will never work. The same people who say capitalism is evil because people are selfish are the same people who say communism would work because people will work for a collective good.

There was a good der speigel article in the 80s which compared the suicide rates in East vs west Germany. The East German rates were much worse.

I don't think critics of capitalism necessarily say capitalism is evil because human nature is selfish. Marx never explicitly expounded a theory of human nature as selfish, egotistical etc. He thought humans were natural creatures with needs and drives, and specific traits only develop as a result of socioeconomic forces

Man is directly a natural being. As a natural being and as a living natural being he is on the one hand endowed with natural powers, vital powers – he is an active natural being. These forces exist in him as tendencies and abilities – as instincts. (1844 manuscripts)

Depending on the type of economic system those tendencies, drives and abilities will manifest themselves in different ways. If the system is capitalist then the tendencies and instincts will be cultivated and developed in the direction of selfishness, egoism, rampant self-interest.
If the system is one in which work is conceived to be something creative, meaningful, communal, and the result of relations of free association, then the drives will be directed towards the common good, helping others, sharing resources.

 

[VivaldiBR]

You obviously missed the sarcasm in my post, which underlies the basic paradox of why communism has never and will never work. The same people who say capitalism is evil because people are selfish are the same people who say communism would work because people will work for a collective good.

There was a good der speigel article in the 80s which compared the suicide rates in East vs west Germany. The East German rates were much worse.

Sorry, but this is not the discussion subject at all. We are talking about capitalisms cultural, social and economics

Your abject disregard for history is showing. Care to tell the class how many died in the Soviet Union of starvation and prison camps? What about in China under the great chairman mao's reformation? What about Cambodia? North Korea? Laos? Vietnam? Right now in Venezuela? Communism claimed over 100 million bodies in the 20th century during periods of PEACE, many times the total of all the wars in the 20th century, including due to that shithead in Germany.

Can you starve due to communism? Yes, yes you can.

Again. To defend or not to be critical with capitalism or neoliberalism you attack socialist experiences. You are running away from the central discussion which is about only capitalism itself and its ethos.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

Care to tell the class how many died in the Soviet Union of starvation and prison camps? What about in China under the great chairman mao's reformation? What about Cambodia? North Korea? Laos? Vietnam? Right now in Venezuela? Communism claimed over 100 million bodies in the 20th century during periods of PEACE, many times the total of all the wars in the 20th century, including due to that shithead in Germany.

These were not communist systems. They were more akin to state capitalism. Bringing up the soviet union, maoist china, cambodia etc as exemplars of the evils of communism is a tired move, and a red herring.

Your abject disregard for history is showing

It's just a discussion, no need to get nasty. Do you get off on talking down to people and being patronizing? I've noticed you do this a lot with others here. I remind you this is a suicide forum and many here are not well at all.

 

[VivaldiBR]

Guys, c'm

These were not communist systems. They were more akin to state capitalism. Bringing up the soviet union, maoist china, cambodia etc as exemplars of the evils of communism is a tired move, and a red herring.

Its a cold war propaganda too.

 

[Aap]

Yes, because if just this one time communism were implemented correctly, not like in the ussr, Maoist China, NK, Cambodia, Laos, vietnam, Venezuela, East Germany, Bulgaria, Romania, Czechoslovakia, or Cuba but really correctly it would work. Let's berate capitalism and espouse communism (but not any of the communism that has ever been tried anywhere in the world because that didn't work).

Yes, you, unlike every regime that has tried and failed in the 20th century, know best. I stand here humbled.

 

[BipolarGuy]

Things like individualism, competition, meritocracy, professional success, comparison, perfect life, perfect body, perfect face, perfect relationship, and other cultural imperatives and social problems. Wouldn't the ideal be to change this system that makes us sick? I'm not saying that everyone gets sick for these reasons, but a large majority is.

I think that the more you work the more reward you get is a fair system, but capitalism has moved beyond that.

Now, people can't access basic health care unless they have money, and everything is dominated by money and greed.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

Yes, because if just this one time communism were implemented correctly, not like in the ussr, Maoist China, NK, Cambodia, Laos, vietnam, Venezuela, East Germany, Bulgaria, Romania, Czechoslovakia, or Cuba but really correctly it would work. Let's berate capitalism and espouse communism (but not any of the communism that has ever been tried anywhere in the world because that didn't work).

Yes, you, unlike every regime that has tried and failed in the 20th century, know best. I stand here humbled.

Well done. You've won the argument.
Now can we get back to how the ethos behind capitalism contributes to alienation, depression and suicidality?

 

[ravergirl]

Capitalism sucks. The fact that communism and fascism built even more heartless, bureaucratic states in the countries where they took over doesn't make capitalism good.

Indigenous peoples all around the world have had community-based, mutual aid cultures where everyone was actually taken care of. The fact that we white people can't figure it out doesn't mean it's impossible.

 

[Aap]

Do you think the computer or phone you are typing this on was created by one of those non-capitalistic cultures? Nothing is stopping you from joining one if that is the cure for all that ails you...

 

[ravergirl]

Do you think the computer or phone you are typing this on was created by one of those non-capitalistic cultures? Nothing is stopping you from joining one if that is the cure for all that ails you...

Clever! Because nobody created technology before capitalism!

How many more strawmen do you intend to build?

 

[Aap]

It is not a straw man. Are you suggesting one of the non-capitalistic, communistic, or fascistic cultures you referenced could have created the computer you are typing on? Don't misstate what I said.

 

[ravergirl]

It is not a straw man. Are you suggesting one of the non-capitalistic, communistic, or fascistic cultures you referenced could have created the computer you are typing on? Don't misstate what I said.

You're assuming that the models that have already existed are the only possible models.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

Are you suggesting one of the non-capitalistic, communistic, or fascistic cultures you referenced could have created the computer you are typing on?

Who gives a shit about phones and computers when they are themselves being used to access information about ways to kill oneself within the same system that gave rise to them?
Why are you creating so many diversions and not addressing the main topic?