Do you believe some people are worth more than others?

[lemonbunny]

I feel like a waste of space, taking up resources for no reason when they could go to someone more deserving. I am envious of nearly everyone I meet who seems to live life without questioning whether they deserve it or not. Because I fail so hard at making the most of my life and what I've been given, I determine myself as worth less than other people, and therefore want to CTB.

But this seems a very mean-spirited view if applied generally, because I do not necessarily look at others and judge their worth by my own metric. In public discourse, though, especially that of forums which are sort of the opposite of SaSu (intense self-improvement, no-nonsense types of communities), they call certain people "high-value men" or "high-value women" based on success/wealth/beauty, stuff like that. Thoughts?

 

[リンさん]

I don't think the worth of human life can or should ever be measured. We are all sentient, sensitive beings. Assigning superficial value to life is just a way to make those on "the lower end" feel even worse about themselves.

I believe that we don't solely exist to be useful. If anything, that's an extremely cruel way of thinking in my opinion. Those who struggle are no less human than those who don't. And being brought into this world against our own will, we don't necessarily owe anything to it.

 

[Seered Doom]

I am too depressed to even assign value in such regards. People are people, shadows, but still figures and shapes that pass by on a day to day for me personally. I think most people see it that way too, but unsure. I feel on the lower end from being either drowned out or chastised by society as a whole. In any manner of speaking, in my honest perspective, there is no such thing as high nor low value. It's a lot more complex than that and I just see beings, not what their supposed value is. That's a socially socitiel bullshit metric.

 

[jbear824]

I can't work. Anyone who can is automatically worth more than me. And that's the majority of people. I am totally worthless as a person.

 

[TransilvanianHunger]

I loathe the idea of "high-value men/women". Whenever I see it used, it's by someone who gives off very distinct incel/femcel vibes, and I find that sort of nonsense nauseating. This pursuit of becoming a "high-value" individual tends to foster selfish, grandiose, inconsiderate behaviour and a bloated sense of self-importance, because apparently you can justify any actions by virtue of calling yourself (or better yet, being perceived by others as) a "high-value" person.

People are not worth more or less than anyone else. We're all in the same place, navigating life as best we can. Some people need more consideration or support because they've been dealt a particularly rough hand, but that doesn't mean they're worth more or less than someone who's had a more... benevolent life.

 

[lemonbunny]

I can't work. Anyone who can is automatically worth more than me. And that's the majority of people. I am totally worthless as a person.

i feel the same, i'm just rotting away without contributing anything to society.
although, my reason for not working is because of social anxiety and fear of not measuring up - very shitty and lazy of me. idk what ur situation is, but i wish u the best, and i dont think u are worthless <3

 

[ggetout33]

Hard to say to be honest. I think there are different "values" to people but that depends on the skillset they have and what environment they're in. A person with one skillset could be utterly useless in one environment then thrive in another.

Like, an IT programmer could use a computer to steal hundreds or thousands from the comfort of his home because he has a computer and knows how to use it. But if you dropped him off to a remote island with no such technology, he would be fucked.

Different environments favor different skillsets. I'd like to think every person has something they could be/are good at, but often lacks the opportunity to find it, or thrive in an environment that could use that skillset. The worst is when they are outright denied the opportunity by ableist scumbags.

 

[tera_forest]

Yes. I hate that I think this way

 

[unloveablegay]

I agree with ggetout33.
I think our capitalist society assigns worth and value and our society assigns higher worth and value to people who have a high level if attractiveness intelligence, creativity, persuasiveness, strategic/visionary thinking, ambition, leadership, etc. and also often assigns that automatically to their family/offspring. Those are probably the attributes that are rarer to find at an above average level, help to create change, and push society/the economy forward in some way so we place a higher value on people who possess those at an above average level.

Unfortunately, lots of people like me are very average or below average, nice, and without a lot of those other valuable attributes and I think we don't contribute much to the development of society as a whole, even if our existence MIGHT mean something sentimental or even "valuable" to some of our family and friends. But even then, the world will go on without us and probably will not change whether or not we ever existed... I sure as hell haven't changed the world or society and it wouldn't make a difference to the universe if I never existed. Probably better for me not to exist so maybe someone else who is more valuable can take the resources I'm depleting on a daily basis.

 

[Letmedienow]

I can't work. Anyone who can is automatically worth more than me. And that's the majority of people. I am totally worthless as a person.

I don't think you are worthless at all. Work is not your worth, a profession is not a personality. Internalized capitalism makes us feel that our self-worth is directly linked to our productivity. I believe you have worth because you are a living being.

 

[Zaljko]

Very much so, yes.

I always knew I was worth less than people who were innately good at math and science - and this was proven out when they graduated and got amazing jobs, and even with two masters degrees the best I could do was like $18/hour. So yes, objectively better.

Looks wise - also yes - as evidenced by my complete lack of dating / sex life until I got into a relationship when I was 27(?)-ish.

So yeah, some people are better than others, and I'm definitely near the bottom in basically any category.

 

[front of me]

No

 

[lemonbunny]

Very much so, yes.

I always knew I was worth less than people who were innately good at math and science - and this was proven out when they graduated and got amazing jobs, and even with two masters degrees the best I could do was like $18/hour. So yes, objectively better.

Looks wise - also yes - as evidenced by my complete lack of dating / sex life until I got into a relationship when I was 27(?)-ish.

So yeah, some people are better than others, and I'm definitely near the bottom in basically any category.

i appreciate ur honesty. just to pick ur brain - do you think morals play any role in someone being "better" than another person? say, an unattractive, uneducated high school dropout who works at fast food but works hard and is charitable and kind to everyone, vs. a genius whose ideas contribute to medical breakthroughs but idk, abuses his wife or something.

 

[Zaljko]

i appreciate ur honesty. just to pick ur brain - do you think morals play any role in someone being "better" than another person? say, an unattractive, uneducated high school dropout who works at fast food but works hard and is charitable and kind to everyone, vs. a genius whose ideas contribute to medical breakthroughs but idk, abuses his wife or something.

I think it depends - I think there are different aspects to this question.

Better than others in what respect?

Healthier
More attractive (yes beauty is objective in certain respects)
Smarter
More outgoing/sociable/assertive

Etc

As to your question -

A person can be smart and still be a crappy human being (how many serial killers were brilliant?). But I would still apply the aforementioned criteria - Ted Bundy was objectively more attractive than I am for example, but of course far worse in terms of how he treated others. Still, women liked him more than they like me for example, so in that sense he's still better attractiveness wise, but certainly worse from a behavioral standpoint.

Still, being nice has only caused me to be taken advantage of, manipulated, verbally abused etc. so I don't place a whole lot of value on "being nice" anymore.

 

[lemonbunny]

I think it depends - I think there are different aspects to this question.

Better than others in what respect?

Healthier
More attractive (yes beauty is objective in certain respects)
Smarter
More outgoing/sociable/assertive

Etc

As to your question -

A person can be smart and still be a crappy human being (how many serial killers were brilliant?). But I would still apply the aforementioned criteria - Ted Bundy was objectively more attractive than I am for example, but of course far worse in terms of how he treated others. Still, women liked him more than they like me for example, so in that sense he's still better attractiveness wise, but certainly worse from a behavioral standpoint.

Still, being nice has only caused me to be taken advantage of, manipulated, verbally abused etc. so I don't place a whole lot of value on "being nice" anymore.

the point of my question was sort of, how do we come up with an overarching idea of "better", because it's easy to point out how much more attractive ted bundy was, but that attractiveness did more harm than good because he used it to lure women for malicious intent. so, idk :3

and im sorry you've experienced that type of abuse from others. it's hard to trust people in this cruel world. i'm only nice to the extent that i dont wish to cause further harm to others, but i keep to myself mostly.

 

[ultrasharpy123456]

Yes I agree with this statement. I'm not worth anything at all.

 

[hawkshorizon]

I can't work. Anyone who can is automatically worth more than me. And that's the majority of people. I am totally worthless as a person.

I share exactly the same feeling-belief.

 

[Girlfriend]

In a capitalistic sense, yes. But that view is messed the fuck up.

Sadly, we live in a world where survival is first and foremost.

My belief is that everyone has something unique to offer and it's mostly good. There are a lot of things we offer in life that come with no financial gain but are valuable. Giving a friend a hug, taking care of a pet, listening to the stories of the elderly, tending a garden, etc. All of these things are even more valuable as say.. making a super deal in the financial district (in my opinion).

I think in this sense the only people who are worth "less" are people who bring actual pain or negativity into their community. And even then I would say only truly in the cases where it's not done for survival. I mean serial abusers, r**ists, and murderers.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think people all have different skills. It's just that sadly- we value some more highly than others. There certainly are exceptionally talented people out there, and exceptionally kind people. It's hard not to view that as more of a loss if they die than someone who has say- scammed and bullied people and made other's lives miserable.

That said- it largely depends on whether you see life as a gift. I'd say equally it was a curse. When I think- we didn't deserve this- I'm thinking negatively. Not in terms of- we're not worthy of it. Not in a shameful way anyhow. It was certainly a waste to have given me life- but- there we go. That's not my fault. I didn't choose to accept it. (As far as we know.) In fact- I resent being given it and then just expected to perform and succeed in life. I hate the expectation to feel worthwhile or feel guilty if you fail or, don't measure up. I do feel it but I hate it.

I don't want to CTB necessarily because I feel like a failure, unworthy of life. I want to CTB because I want to reject and escape the system that forces you to either comply or fail and feel guilty and/ or suffer more. I suppose that's the difference though- I think life can feel more like a punishment rather than a gift. Even people who work really hard and do everything right can fail, come down with some debhilitating illness, fall apart mentally.

I suspect a great proportion of people who fly high in terms of business are sociopaths. Not to say that's their fault. I guess it's a mental illness like any other. However- this world rewards ruthlessness. In my experience- companies love to employ one or two people who don't seem to be bothered by ethics. They will happily sack people, cut their pay, cut their leave, reduce their hours. Some even seem to enjoy it. Personally, I don't enjoy being part of a value system that highly rates those sorts of people.

So- I guess it depends on whether you are talking about our own personal percetion of worth- or, societies. In terms of personal feeling- yes, I think there are more people deserving of life and opportunities than me (the nicer elements in life.) I'm not sure how my death is going to help them though. I guess a handful will inherit a little bit of money.

Thing is though- unless you've actually gone out your way to hurt people- I doubt many will celebrate your death. I expect other people put more value on you than you do. Now and again, people will say their loved ones will be better off without them. I wonder if their loved ones would see it like that though. I think it's more likely they will just find the whole thing tragic. That they already knew that the person had no self worth despite how much they loved them.

Maybe it's an unfair statement but- most of the arrogant, unpleasant arseholes I have come across in life have been brimming with self worth. I think an excess of it can lead to things like narcissism. Again- it's maybe not a narcissist's fault they turn out the way they do but- they can leave chaos in their wake. They can severely damage other people's lives but on the surface- they can look to be highly successful and they will constantly remind people how worthy and special they are. It depends then on what attributes we all hold as being worthwhile.

Personally, I'd say kindness and respect for others are the most worthwhile attributes. If more people had those attributes, fewer people would suffer. This world doesn't really reward that though. In fact- overly kind and placid people tend to get exploited as a mug in my experience. So- it's also whether you're going to be able to utilise your gifts in this world- or, whether it would serve you better to repress them.

 

[unloveablegay]

i appreciate ur honesty. just to pick ur brain - do you think morals play any role in someone being "better" than another person? say, an unattractive, uneducated high school dropout who works at fast food but works hard and is charitable and kind to everyone, vs. a genius whose ideas contribute to medical breakthroughs but idk, abuses his wife or something.

To an extent morals can also be quite subjective so I think it depends on who's doing the judging. In some cultures women are property and inferior to men, so it's probably not an issue if a genius abuses his wife. In our capitalist society if people recognize the worth of the wife and her contributions to society as less than the husband, I'd imagine people probably won't care so much (or even believe) that he abuses her, and even if he were to get fired from a job, he'd probably get another job consulting or something because people value his genius. Theyd probably still consider him more valuable than the high school dropout who works hard and is nice. The genius, even if a shitty person, probably is still potentially saving way more lives with his medical breakthroughs. In that case, there's another moral question of is the benefit of the many more important than the benefit of the one? Tough to answer but I think most societies (capitalistic or not) will tend to prioritize the many, so even if one woman is being abused by her husband, if he's saving hundreds of lives with his work they will most likely place more value on him. That's just an opinion from me who self identifies as worthless though so take all that with a large grain of salt.

 

[squareminus1]

I feel like a waste of space, taking up resources for no reason when they could go to someone more deserving. I am envious of nearly everyone I meet who seems to live life without questioning whether they deserve it or not. Because I fail so hard at making the most of my life and what I've been given, I determine myself as worth less than other people, and therefore want to CTB.

But this seems a very mean-spirited view if applied generally, because I do not necessarily look at others and judge their worth by my own metric. In public discourse, though, especially that of forums which are sort of the opposite of SaSu (intense self-improvement, no-nonsense types of communities), they call certain people "high-value men" or "high-value women" based on success/wealth/beauty, stuff like that. Thoughts?

I'd like to hope that generally I don't but sometimes during really depressive episodes I do. During these I have previously said you can do whatever you like in life but the two main things you need to do is try keep your head above water and try to hurt as few other people along the way, bonus points if you bring joy to others. In other words earn your place, don't step on other people to get to it and like. I feel like I have to step on people and hurt them to gain in life such as by annoying them with my complex emotions, the need for taking aggredious amount of loans for uni, constantly making mistaks that others need to fix while I am working to earn my way and just generally being a bit ungrateful for it all. For this reason I deffinetly see myself as being a less worthy human. This sometimes even translates to me thinking less of people who hurt me, although sometimes I think I just deserve that, so I'd say mostly I think of myself as being less wortht. Sorry for venting lol

 

[lemonbunny]

To an extent morals can also be quite subjective so I think it depends on who's doing the judging. In some cultures women are property and inferior to men, so it's probably not an issue if a genius abuses his wife. In our capitalist society if people recognize the worth of the wife and her contributions to society as less than the husband, I'd imagine people probably won't care so much (or even believe) that he abuses her, and even if he were to get fired from a job, he'd probably get another job consulting or something because people value his genius. Theyd probably still consider him more valuable than the high school dropout who works hard and is nice. The genius, even if a shitty person, probably is still potentially saving way more lives with his medical breakthroughs. In that case, there's another moral question of is the benefit of the many more important than the benefit of the one? Tough to answer but I think most societies (capitalistic or not) will tend to prioritize the many, so even if one woman is being abused by her husband, if he's saving hundreds of lives with his work they will most likely place more value on him. That's just an opinion from me who self identifies as worthless though so take all that with a large grain of salt.

yep that makes perfect sense. i'm seeking more personal judgement, however, rather than a big-picture definition where you talk about capitalism and other cultures from the third person perspective.

because say, if we defined good as the advancement of human society, then the genius could be argued as worth far more than the kind, harmless McDonald's worker.
let him abuse his wife, hell, even murder a few people. he's still saving millions of lives with his new cure for cancer, so what's the big deal?

but then i think we lose a lot of our other morals in prioritizing the strong few over everyone else's suffering.
so i guess my question is, do you adopt the capitalistic mindset in how you judge others, how you judge yourself? i tend to apply it to myself, but i would not look at a homeless disabled person and think of them as lesser than me, because i feel like the shittiest person alive

 

[girlsboysthems]

my inferiority complex says yes

 

[samsara_96]

I believe that people tend to ascribe value to individuals based on their usefulness in achieving a particular end. For instance, if I aspire to become a mathematician, I might consider my thesis advisor to be more valuable than others. Similarly, neo-liberal societies place a higher worth on individuals with scientific and technological skills than on those who do not, because the former help in attaining the goal of perpetual economic and military expansion. However, this does not imply that people inherently possess a fixed value to their lives. If they did, the value of their lives would not fluctuate from one society to another. I'm certain that most religious figures would be deemed utterly irrelevant if they were born today, but in times past, they were regarded as having led the most significant lives until just a few centuries ago.

 

[empty sighs]

i appreciate ur honesty. just to pick ur brain - do you think morals play any role in someone being "better" than another person? say, an unattractive, uneducated high school dropout who works at fast food but works hard and is charitable and kind to everyone, vs. a genius whose ideas contribute to medical breakthroughs but idk, abuses his wife or something.

You sound like a cool guy, and don't listen to what anyone else says. Being kind and charitable is the best thing anyone has ever done to me.

 

[dvzaazai]

Yes, but not because of what some people think. I don't think someone is of higher value because they're richer or because they work certain jobs. I do think that people who contribute in society are worth more than others, though, but that can't be measured by "fast food worker" vs. "genius" as previously asked. I do think, however that people who are kind, charitable, and open to others are worth more than people who aren't. Those are the people who are actually helping the world.

I don't work much and I have fucked morals (I don't think people deserve to be abused or raped or anything, but just about good and bad people and such.), so I don't think I'm really worth much. That's the core of my belief.

 

[SexyIncél]

Sure, I think many depraved jerks are worth shit. Even though a given society may value them highly & give them unquestioning followers

 

[Zaljko]

the point of my question was sort of, how do we come up with an overarching idea of "better", because it's easy to point out how much more attractive ted bundy was, but that attractiveness did more harm than good because he used it to lure women for malicious intent. so, idk :3

and im sorry you've experienced that type of abuse from others. it's hard to trust people in this cruel world. i'm only nice to the extent that i dont wish to cause further harm to others, but i keep to myself mostly.

But we have to break it down. I don't think we can conflate one thing with another. "Better" and "worse" are to some extent always going to be a little subjective. But that's why I think it's important to focus on objectivity. You're correct that Bundy's looks went to malicious purpose, but that doesn't take away the fact that objectively he was an attractive man (or at least moreso than someone like myself, for example). I've accepted it.

I do believe overall some people are worth more than other overall, even despite what I said. A researcher working on the cure for cancer, for example, has far more value to society (and thus is objectively better than) someone with an IQ of 65 who is unable to do anything for himself or herself and who needs to be cared for by both parent and society in order to have all needs met - while not doing anything (through no fault of their own - they are not capable of such) - to benefit the larger society at all.

 

[lemonbunny]

But we have to break it down. I don't think we can conflate one thing with another. "Better" and "worse" are to some extent always going to be a little subjective. But that's why I think it's important to focus on objectivity. You're correct that Bundy's looks went to malicious purpose, but that doesn't take away the fact that objectively he was an attractive man (or at least moreso than someone like myself, for example). I've accepted it.

I do believe overall some people are worth more than other overall, even despite what I said. A researcher working on the cure for cancer, for example, has far more value to society (and thus is objectively better than) someone with an IQ of 65 who is unable to do anything for himself or herself and who needs to be cared for by both parent and society in order to have all needs met - while not doing anything (through no fault of their own - they are not capable of such) - to benefit the larger society at all.

yeah i see what you mean! i wasn't denying that ted bundy was attractive tho. what i meant was along the lines of saying that there is a potential problem with using attractiveness as a metric for someone being "better" than another person. like, i wouldn't say my friend is inferior to a supermodel just because she's not as objectively pretty. if that makes sense. and i understand that better and worse are subjective - i was definitely asking for subjective opinions with this thread more than objective ones. like, in your day-to-day life, what constitutes YOUR judgements of people.

if you want to talk objectivity i could get with some people have more potential than others. iq, attractiveness, circumstance, that plays into the potential of a person to contribute more to society than another person. but i don't think myself worthless because i wasn't born a genius - i think that way because i never made anything out of what i had.

 

[Quiet_Observer]

Of course, obvously someone like hitler is worth nothing. But more than that, I think people who are willing to realize all the negatives around them are much better off than others. What I mean is, I think your inherently better than everyone else if you recognize that existing creates problems for the environment and such. People who prize nature more than anything else are at the top of worth in my head; while those who fail to recognize their selfishness for existing are all the way at the bottom. Just imo.