Do you believe in free will?

[aGoodDayToDie]

Do you?

I don't. We're just machines. Our DNA plus experiences determines our actions. We're highly predictable.

Consequences are I don't think it's ever right to punish people vindictively for revenge. We don't punish lions for doing things lions do. We just protect ourselves. I don't blame murderers or pedophiles for doing what they do. They need rehabilitation. Not punishment. They're just sick in their own way, whether they know it or not.

 

[Daft-Bear]

"Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills"

Then again…

"of course we have free will, we have no choice."

Personally, though free will is probably an illusion, im not sure it changes anything.

 

[Superdeterminist]

i think i must be one of the strongest free will denialists out there...my username should give you an idea

it's a subject which i am obsessed with. though technically it cannot be tested, to me it seems like there's no way that we could have done otherwise. so, no free will. the universe is just playing out, there is no freedom, it's just a big mechanism. human behaviour is as automatic as a seed sprouting, or a storm brewing.

i'm very interested in the attempt to reintroduce determinism back into physics (superdeterminism). it's my greatest passion.

i know there are many free will prononents in the world, who insist that actually, we could have done otherwise. i have had some conversations with some of them. but the disagreement rests on something which we can never test by experiment. i believe they are determined to believe in free will, whilst they believe I'm freely choosing to reject free will...ah, what the hell do we do about this...

 

[tiyijinn]

I don't. Everything is either pre-determined or decided by dice-roll, depending on whether there can be unknown variables governing the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics. Neither give any possibility to free-will.

 

[carac]

I don't believe in dertiminism, I dont believe in a "clockwork universe" the world is random, you can see it everywhere in nature, humans are not machines we act irrationaly. So my answer is yes we do have free will in as much as we do not not have free will.

 

[aGoodDayToDie]

I don't believe in dertiminism, I dont believe in a "clockwork universe" the world is random, you can see it everywhere in nature, humans are not machines we act irrationaly. So my answer is yes we do have free will in as much as we do not not have free will.

But even with randomness, we're still like dice, the dice have no choice but to land randomly where they are... determined to land. We are machines! Our actions are determined by neurons firing. Humans have established how they operate, and actually modelled modern AI after them. Its all machinery, we just happen to use chemical interactions more than electronic signals but its still a matter of cause and effect. Predictable elements combined into a really complex system that is so complex it can give the *illusion* of doing something at some higher, independent level. But machines are catching up in complexity and ability and they show zero sign of free will. We can control every aspect that we decide to look at in detail. Once we learn more about DNA we'll be able to do the same in humans and manipulate choices people will make by altering their DNA. That will prove choice is an illusion even further. But we can already predict people's choices in many things statistically. Doesn't that prove lack of free will?

i think i must be one of the strongest free will denialists out there...my username should give you an idea

it's a subject which i am obsessed with. though technically it cannot be tested, to me it seems like there's no way that we could have done otherwise. so, no free will. the universe is just playing out, there is no freedom, it's just a big mechanism. human behaviour is as automatic as a seed sprouting, or a storm brewing.

i'm very interested in the attempt to reintroduce determinism back into physics (superdeterminism). it's my greatest passion.

i know there are many free will prononents in the world, who insist that actually, we could have done otherwise. i have had some conversations with some of them. but the disagreement rests on something which we can never test by experiment. i believe they are determined to believe in free will, whilst they believe I'm freely choosing to reject free will...ah, what the hell do we do about this...

Lol nice username. Glad you agree! You put it very well. But to say that we can't prove it... are you sure?? As we get better and better at predicting people's choices doest that disprove free will?

 

[carac]

But even with randomness, we're still like dice, the dice have no choice but to land randomly where they are... determined to land. We are machines! Our actions are determined by neurons firing. Humans have established how they operate, and actually modelled modern AI after them. Its all machinery, we just happen to use chemical interactions more than electronic signals but its still a matter of cause and effect. Predictable elements combined into a really complex system that is so complex it can give the *illusion* of doing something at some higher, independent level. But machines are catching up in complexity and ability and they show zero sign of free will. We can control every aspect that we decide to look at in detail. Once we learn more about DNA we'll be able to do the same in humans and manipulate choices people will make by altering their DNA. That will prove choice is an illusion even further. But we can already predict people's choices in many things statistically. Doesn't that prove lack of free will?

Einstein was unable to dissprove Heisenburgs uncertainty principle, if anything, since then science has moved toward uncertainty and away from Einstein's deterministic view of the universe.

 

[Superdeterminist]

Lol nice username. Glad you agree! You put it very well. But to say that we can't prove it... are you sure?? As we get better and better at predicting people's choices doest that disprove free will?

no, it wouldn't disprove free will. to test free will/determinism, one has to test for whether we really could have done otherwise or not. how are we to test such a thing? it seems there will never be any way to do so. which is incredibly frustrating, imo

 

[aGoodDayToDie]

no, it wouldn't disprove free will. to test free will/determinism, one has to test for whether we really could have done otherwise or not. how are we to test such a thing? it seems there will never be any way to do so. which is incredibly frustrating, imo

Aren't there different degrees of proof? I'm a bit too stoned to think of an experiment which could demonstrate it but I'm very surprised to think it might be impossible. Maybe there is a creative way, or a round about way once we get advances in, or convergence between technologies to help uncover facts about how the brain works, perhaps to prove or disprove determinism and/or randomness as cause for all thoughts and behaviours. (Then again, what else is there, anyway? Between them they preclude any other possibilities). Just this argument seems to favour the argument against free will. Could such arguments never count as proof?

 

[Superdeterminist]

Aren't there different degrees of proof? I'm a bit too stoned to think of an experiment which could demonstrate it but I'm very surprised to think it might be impossible. Maybe there is a creative way, or a round about way once we get advances in, or convergence between technologies to help uncover facts about how the brain works, perhaps to prove or disprove determinism and/or randomness as cause for all thoughts and behaviours. (Then again, what else is there, anyway? Between them they preclude any other possibilities). Just this argument seems to favour the argument against free will. Could such arguments never count as proof?

i wish there were a way, but i really don't think there is. it means testing for 'possibility' which is an abstract idea, it isn't something we could ever detect with any conceivable instrument.

sabine hossenfelder has proposed an experiment that she had suggested could test for determinism. the test involves preparing the states of 2 systems identically, and seeing if they evolve identically for any length of time. unfortunately though, this really would not prove anything regarding determinism/free will, as she herself has subtly acknowledged:

"[freedom] is not something that can be directly tested by observation or by experiment because it implicitly draws on counterfactual situations, mathematical possibilities that we do not observe and that, depending on one's model or theory, may or may not exist."

 

[neonzebra]

I haven't seen any convincing argument for free will being possible.
I don't necessarily think it's a negative thing to think this way as some people seem to. If anything it's a comfort to me.

 

[Forever Sleep]

How do you define free will though? The freedom to choose? We all DO have that freedom- it's just that some choices are illegal or result in negative consequences- so- that puts people off always expressing their will. They still potentially could though.

Of course, it may not be under our control as to what we want but we still make the choice on how to act on it. I imagine that's what we're talking about here- the expression of free will.

But, to an extent- yes, I believe in free will. If we are looking at the more negative sides of human nature- there must be plenty of people that stop themselves from doing things they may really want to do, because they know it's wrong. I'm not saying it's their fault that they have those desires in the first place but- it's still a choice on how they act on them. Murderers and rapists choose to murder and rape people! It's fair enough to look at their past to try and understand why they got to that point but I think we DO need to take responsibility for our actions. Especially when we know our actions are wrong and/ or illegal.

I'd say the vast majority of people know the difference between right and wrong. They obviously have an overwhelming need to satisfy something in them but I'm sure they knowingly suspend/ block out thoughts that tell them this is wrong to do whatever action it is. Unless of course- they have been given no sense of right and wrong in their upbringing.

Other people will still have those desires but block them. Is there an inevitability that some people will be able to control their desires more than others? Maybe. I still don't think someone is utterly powerless to stop themselves from doing something heinous though.

People deny their will everyday though- on much smaller matters. They want that slice of chocolate cake but- they're on a diet. I don't believe they are somehow destined to either eat it or not. They make the choice and suffer the consequences. Murders and rapists make the choice and suffer the consequences.

We are all highly influenced by our genetics and surroundings- no doubt but- you wouldn't get people escaping things like strict religions- even cults they were born into if free will didn't exist.

I think we often refer to free will when- what we are talking about is the supression of free will. Some people either let their free will become surpressed and others feel more forced to comply- but- it's still a choice. Most of us COULD quit our jobs tomorrow. We don't though because the consequences seem worse. We make choices everyday. I expect most of the time, we tend to choose the path of least resistance. Paying rent to your landlord seems safer longterm than witholding rent or murdering them to avoid paying rent! I think most people are aware that sometimes expressing their own free will infringes the free will of others. So- people become aware that's selfish and modify their behaviour in a lot of cases.

 

[aGoodDayToDie]

How do you define free will though? The freedom to choose? We all DO have that freedom- it's just that some choices are illegal or result in negative consequences- so- that puts people off always expressing their will. They still potentially could though.

Of course, it may not be under our control as to what we want but we still make the choice on how to act on it. I imagine that's what we're talking about here- the expression of free will.

But, to an extent- yes, I believe in free will. If we are looking at the more negative sides of human nature- there must be plenty of people that stop themselves from doing things they may really want to do, because they know it's wrong. I'm not saying it's their fault that they have those desires in the first place but- it's still a choice on how they act on them. Murderers and rapists choose to murder and rape people! It's fair enough to look at their past to try and understand why they got to that point but I think we DO need to take responsibility for our actions. Especially when we know our actions are wrong and/ or illegal.

I'd say the vast majority of people know the difference between right and wrong. They obviously have an overwhelming need to satisfy something in them but I'm sure they knowingly suspend/ block out thoughts that tell them this is wrong to do whatever action it is. Unless of course- they have been given no sense of right and wrong in their upbringing.

Other people will still have those desires but block them. Is there an inevitability that some people will be able to control their desires more than others? Maybe. I still don't think someone is utterly powerless to stop themselves from doing something heinous though.

People deny their will everyday though- on much smaller matters. They want that slice of chocolate cake but- they're on a diet. I don't believe they are somehow destined to either eat it or not. They make the choice and suffer the consequences. Murders and rapists make the choice and suffer the consequences.

We are all highly influenced by our genetics and surroundings- no doubt but- you wouldn't get people escaping things like strict religions- even cults they were born into if free will didn't exist.

I think we often refer to free will when- what we are talking about is the supression of free will. Some people either let their free will become surpressed and others feel more forced to comply- but- it's still a choice. Most of us COULD quit our jobs tomorrow. We don't though because the consequences seem worse. We make choices everyday. I expect most of the time, we tend to choose the path of least resistance. Paying rent to your landlord seems safer longterm than witholding rent or murdering them to avoid paying rent! I think most people are aware that sometimes expressing their own free will infringes the free will of others. So- people become aware that's selfish and modify their behaviour in a lot of cases.

But... all our choices... what determines our reasons for the choices? Our programming. Some people are antisocial, some very social, etc etc this sort of thing makes people quite predictable and the cause is clearly often dna controlling our thought processes and experiences

 

[Forever Sleep]

But... all our choices... what determines our reasons for the choices? Our programming. Some people are antisocial, some very social, etc etc this sort of thing makes people quite predictable and the cause is clearly often dna controlling our thought processes and experiences

Yeah- very true. Still- some people fight their natural tendancies if they see them as a problem. I struggle socially but- partly that's my own fault because I've chosen not to challenge myself in that regard. I expect I could become better if I did more of it. It scares me though- so I CHOOSE not to.

People do overcome setbacks in life. Obviously you could argue that requires determination and maybe that is the biggest 'gift' we either have or don't. Look at some of the feats disabled people manage to achieve. They physically CAN'T do certain things but if they are determined enough, they find a way around. I actually do think maybe that is the cruelest thing to lack- determination and motivation. You can tell that so many people here simply don't have the desire to do anything in life. It's hard to do anything when you you simply have no desire to.

Still- I think a lot of it is being honest with yourself. What's holding you back? Are there other people with the same or similar setbacks who have succeeded in life? What makes them different? They can't ALL have better genes and better circumstances. Some people just have more fight I think. They succeed despite terrible setbacks. I still think it comes down to drive at the end of the day. Plenty of people suffer with things. Some let those setbacks define who they are and some do all they can to succeed despite them.

 

[aGoodDayToDie]

Yeah- very true. Still- some people fight their natural tendancies if they see them as a problem. I struggle socially but- partly that's my own fault because I've chosen not to challenge myself in that regard. I expect I could become better if I did more of it. It scares me though- so I CHOOSE not to.

People do overcome setbacks in life. Obviously you could argue that requires determination and maybe that is the biggest 'gift' we either have or don't. Look at some of the feats disabled people manage to achieve. They physically CAN'T do certain things but if they are determined enough, they find a way around. I actually do think maybe that is the cruelest thing to lack- determination and motivation. You can tell that so many people here simply don't have the desire to do anything in life. It's hard to do anything when you you simply have no desire to.

Still- I think a lot of it is being honest with yourself. What's holding you back? Are there other people with the same or similar setbacks who have succeeded in life? What makes them different? They can't ALL have better genes and better circumstances. Some people just have more fight I think. They succeed despite terrible setbacks. I still think it comes down to drive at the end of the day. Plenty of people suffer with things. Some let those setbacks define who they are and some do all they can to succeed despite them.

But that "fight" is going to be largely genetic factors, so it implies no free will! We are entirely products of out DNA and environment. There's just no other source of what makes us do the things we do

 

[Forever Sleep]

But that "fight" is going to be largely genetic factors, so it implies no free will! We are entirely products of out DNA and environment. There's just no other source of what makes us do the things we do

Maybe but- if we really are that predictable- why are we still shocked when serial killers show up? In the UK at the moment- everyone is talking about Lucy Letby- a nurse found guilty of murdering 7 babies and attempting to murder a further 6. You'd imagine a deeply disturbed lady but it sounds as if they're not even sure she does have mental illness. But- do you REALLY believe she had no choice? A note they found in her home appeared to show acknowledgement that she was doing something wrong. She simply labelled herself 'evil'. But we don't HAVE to act on our impulses. To try and murder 13 babies- that takes thought and planning- surely? SURELY she could have sought out help BEFORE she murdered them. People don't HAVE to do bad things. It's easy to just blame it on some other entity because it removes responsibility. Yes- we're all differently gifted or cursed but not everyone turns out the same. Actions and especially actions we know are wrong still require a decision to be made. That all said- you must be the world's most forgiving person if you think no one is ever to blame for anything.

 

[aGoodDayToDie]

Maybe but- if we really are that predictable- why are we still shocked when serial killers show up? In the UK at the moment- everyone is talking about Lucy Letby- a nurse found guilty of murdering 7 babies and attempting to murder a further 6. You'd imagine a deeply disturbed lady but it sounds as if they're not even sure she does have mental illness. But- do you REALLY believe she had no choice? A note they found in her home appeared to show acknowledgement that she was doing something wrong. She simply labelled herself 'evil'. But we don't HAVE to act on our impulses. To try and murder 13 babies- that takes thought and planning- surely? SURELY she could have sought out help BEFORE she murdered them. People don't HAVE to do bad things. It's easy to just blame it on some other entity because it removes responsibility. Yes- we're all differently gifted or cursed but not everyone turns out the same. Actions and especially actions we know are wrong still require a decision to be made. That all said- you must be the world's most forgiving person if you think no one is ever to blame for anything.

They were just inclined to do that due to DNA and environment. Predictable. I'm not one to condone vindictive punishments bit instead rehabilitation and protection for the public. They're also human beings that suffer and make bad decisions and impulses. I blame society for not doing more to stop it happening in the first place

 

[counting-out-time]

Free will was never a choice IMO I mean take lucy letby for example. Yes she did alot of crimes and yes she has been given a life sentence with never the possibility for parole but what I'm not happy with is that she put her on red alert incase she commits suicide. But I don't see the reason when when she gets to 80/90 and then snuffs it, it's no other change than if they gave her the death sentence in the first place. But overall free will is bollocks cause we as humans never have a easy option to die. We just have to suffer till we get murdered. Die of old age or suffer some medical illness which most times is not pain free. Wouldn't it be good if we had a ai bot computer in the womb with a big button that says "abort" that we could use if we didn't want to enter this crap hole of a world

 

[Lost Magic]

We all have choices but they come at a price. Whether those choices are good or bad is down to each individual. However, there are a great many things that are out of our control. So, I try not to get bogged down with the out-of-control stuff nowadays. Life can be messy, random, and chaotic, depending on the way we live our lives and the company (or lack thereof) we choose to keep. Peace X