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noname223

Archangel
Aug 18, 2020
5,180
I searched for a catchy title. The other title would have been do the younger generations have too strong opinions without doing the necessary research to come to a profound conclusion.

I think this STEM professor hated me for the fact I always had strong opinions without knowing anything. My behavior is kind of pathological and the only thing that helps is reading more to become really educated. Or sometimes as in this forum I make the disclaimer that I am only a layman. I mean we are at a suicide forum and not a meeting of scholars at Harvard. (Maybe that is too exaggerated.) He hit a nerve for sure in my case. Since that I started to read way more scientifical articles to inform me.

I read the claim that the younger generation is too lazy (or put in different words) from many intellectuals. The young people have strong opinions but lack the empirical research. I heard that from Jordan Peterson, David Foster Wallace alluded to that I think, Noam Chomsky etc. with Noam Chomsky I am not sure. It might be the case that he was used as counterexample how well some people inform themselves before sharing their opinion.

I could imagine there are a lot of pro and contra arguments for this hypothesis. Moreover I think such claims are not really new. Older generations often complained about the young people and their lack of values, hard work etc.

My first thought is the fridaysforfuture, extinction rebellion movement.The fridaysforfuture teenagers skip school and protest instead. But there is a paradox for this answer. Yes these young people have a strong opinion, yes these people skip school and education seems to be for them less important than the protest. Though it is also a fact that their demands are supported by the vast majority of serious climate scientists. Their concern is fully reasonable considering the empirical evidences. Though these people probably have less skills to argument for their concern and might have a harder time to reach powerful positons where they could change something substantively. Side-note: I was a conservative as teenager but I think even as lefty I would not have skipped school for those protests. I am very conscientious and I am kind of a free-rider. I am a lot into politics but I stay away from demonstrations. Maybe due to the fact I have social anxiety and I feel pretty irrelevant in my current situation. I have a hard time to survive I think my voice does not really matter. However of course I vote at elections. I think the climate movement example is pretty good proof that there is no black-white answer.

I could imagine that the following fuels the development of building strong opinions: I think the internet and the attention economy behind it is responsible partially. Who really reads long essays of a good looking and talented young guy in the basement of his mom on suicide forums if he could at the same watch live decapitations of the Mexican mafia or watch porn you never really thought such things would really exist. Silly jokes aside. Due to the globalization and the internet connectivity everything is so fast. The pacing of our daily lives has changed. Our smartphones are the best invention against boredom. If you are waiting at your doctor why not messaging your friends or share some photos with silly platitudes you found on instagram. The media and social media have changed our lives. In my country there are some outlets which fight each other who has the fastest livetickers and fastest notifications. Of course there lies the danger that fake news get spread though money over truth. I think I read that such a concept rather backfires. Many outlets fought to have the most shocking titles and pictures on social media. In many cases this backfires as we see with VICE. There seems to be the tendency that citizens search for an anchor which can lead them through this mess the current media landscape is. So trustworthiness is more important than catchy yellow press alike stories. Though I am not sure whether this really is the reality.

On social media like Twitter fast, short, pointed and exaggerated posts get the most attention. I read fake news spread several times faster on social media than true reportings. There is also the development that truth is subjective for many people. We cannot find compromises about the reality. The polarization increases and it becomes even true that social media platforms come into existence dedicated for one political group. There is the postmodern influence that truth becomes subjective and dependent on the consumer. Besides attention is often linked to money and power. And the most shocking content gets the most clicks (often). Some do this clickbait with better some with less quality. Andre Tate's success is dependent on that.

I have the feeling I have not hit the nail yet. But I might end it here. I go to sleep earlier. And yesterday it helped.
I cannot give a reliable answer to the question of the title. I don't know studies I can only share some ideas about plausible theories on it.

What do you think?
 
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Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
3,992
I'm not sure why these people are targeting the younger generations for criticism. If I had to be ageist, I would say that by far the most harm to our politics has been done by certain older people who mindlessly consume and regurgitate outrage-mongering right-wing media.

Young people have the advantage of superior education standards (generally), better neuroplasticity and exposure to a wider variety of cultures. Plus they weren't all poisoned by lead.

Social media, contrasted to the human interaction of proper communities enjoyed by older generations, can be very harmful to young minds. and there are certainly problems being faced at many levels. But from what I can see, the agenda to attack young people probably boils down to endless attempts by right-wing media to infantalize or defame the whole climate change movement. Which brings us back to what I said in my first paragraph.
 
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Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
9,420
When it comes to politics and things which provoke strong reactions- yes- it's probably best to know the facts. (I always come unstuck there.) Still- in a way- I think what's more important is to be brave enough to voice your opinion. Then- if it transpires you don't know the full picture- accept this and back down. Maybe the bigger 'problem' is- so many people don't want to engage in discussion at all. Sometimes through disinterest. Sometimes through distrust- how can even the most knowledgable person be sure EVERYTHING they've been told is true? I doubt any of us are told everything. Some people make incredibly strong arguments based on incorrect facts!

Overall though- yes- it's best to have both I imagine- a good knowledge of the subject and an articulate manner in which to make your argument. I think someone who has passion but no knowledge can be fascinating but they usually crumble when someone who knows what they're talking about comes along!

In terms of other areas in our lives- Yes- I definitely think you have a point. It's kind of weird just how important our opinions are supposed to be now. I've never actually watched it (I've heard it's good) but a programme like 'Gogglebox' has us watching people watching television. Like- watching people's reactions to things has become a major source of entertainment in itself. Plus- just about everything you do now asks you to review it afterwards. They can be useful of course but it's annoying at the same time. Like- I just want to buy something without getting 3 emails asking me to share my experience... Plus- there's the issue of fake reviews and affiliate marketing.

But yeah- I think there is a MASSIVE focus now on the everyday opinions of people. Maybe it's ok if you have the factual stuff there as well but yeah- with so much focus on getting good reviews- you get people who cheat- so- commercially it can backfire too.
 
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UseItOrLoseIt

UseItOrLoseIt

1O'8
Dec 4, 2020
2,217
I'm 37. Lived in the '90's and beyond. I feel young too! Even though I would rather feel deceased. My opinion: People are people. But the means of communicating had changed. Vertically, horizontally, every which way, they got faster, wider, impersonal, all encompassing, inescapable, a huge random web of information tailored to each person individually in real-time. There's no more "general culture". People pursue what gets their attention. And this is a focal point today I think. "Attention". The media knows this and exploit it to the max. It's a given that the sheer amount of available information will make for a more differentiated and specialized society (as a set of individuals), so the effort shifts to attract rather than inform.

It's almost unimaginable to me that some people have the delusional balls to diminish facts in favor of emotion. Personal and objective truth are not interchangeable. Each belongs to a different plane of truth.

I'm not, by the way, saying that young people today don't have the will to learn facts and wish to be objective. I'm saying that popular culture doesn't.
All in all, people know more and more but also have less and less in common.

I don't know if I make any sense. I'm just spitballing. I'm also drunk and very tired.
 
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Blurry_Buildings

Blurry_Buildings

Just Existing
Sep 27, 2023
458
I agree, but imo what is considered "factual" by some can be incredibly subjective or relative in any direction. I think we have always been incredibly subjective and it's just gotten much worse more recently.

100 years ago there were people running around the USA claiming that, scientifically, black americans were inferior in every way to white americans. These were facts proven by smart looking "biologists" in fancy suits and anyone who questioned the hard facts were dangerous radicals and hooligans acting out on their subjective feelings.

200 years ago this was common sense amongst everyone.

I'm liberal and have had friends who protested often but I've never heard of people skipping school regularly to protest.. only maybe like once every few years for a big one. I also never see climate protestors like the videos of the just stop oil people blocking roads in the UK but I feel like they would get run over at 50-80 mph without remorse if they tried to do it here (+20 if the state is easy on speed limit enforcement lol). Today the republican party and the democratic party both have their own set of opposing "objective" facts and endless piles of data to back up their claims.

-Do human beings start at conception or birth?
-Are asylum seekers following the very specific laws (which both parties wrote not too long ago)?
-Is gun control effective/ legal/ morally acceptable?
-Do guns enable mass shootings or do people enable mass shootings (both is not an option)?
-Is legalizing hard drugs morally acceptable?
-Are social safety nets and welfare programs legal/ morally acceptable?
-Is government funded education legal/ morally acceptable?
-Does systemic "soft" racism exist? What counts as police brutality?
-Is the death penalty morally acceptable? For profit prisons?
-Does interventionism work (and should we invade mexico)?
-Do transgender/ LGBTQ people in general exist or are they delusional/ mentally ill?
-Does climate change exist?

There are endless piles of "evidence" for both, but nothing is ever considered a fact. For every fact based in evidence there is an opposing fact based in evidence. The rightwing conservatives have an extremely popular commentator who likes to say "facts don't care about your feelings" and the leftwing liberals always put up signs demanding a respect for science. Fake news is everywhere adding literal lies into the mix as well.

It's an interesting (and terrifyingly fun - like driving towards the edge of a massive ravine) time to be alive when things get more and more subjective so quickly. Just 10 years ago everybody mostly agreed on everything and now everyone hates the other side (and the moderates lol). I would have preferred to have been born 40-80 years from now so I could grow up in time to see the second american civil war, but unfortunately we are forever stuck in the 2020s.
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

Enlightened
Oct 15, 2023
1,791
Do you feel it is possible for young people (17) to form their own opinions on political world and social issues? I ask this because I have noticed most people this age usually form their opinions on what they have been told such as the 9/11 conspiracy movement instead of what they have observed: Yeah, it 's totally possible for young people to form their own opinions. But the thing is that young people are also much easier to pull into shit like conspiracy theories, this is what I talked about when I talked about nazism. They're going after the youth. Youth are much more attracted to fantastical things like conspiracy theories and nazism and stuff like that. But its totally possible for you to form your own opinions.
 
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noname223

Archangel
Aug 18, 2020
5,180
Do you feel it is possible for young people (17) to form their own opinions on political world and social issues? I ask this because I have noticed most people this age usually form their opinions on what they have been told such as the 9/11 conspiracy movement instead of what they have observed: Yeah, it 's totally possible for young people to form their own opinions. But the thing is that young people are also much easier to pull into shit like conspiracy theories, this is what I talked about when I talked about nazism. They're going after the youth. Youth are much more attracted to fantastical things like conspiracy theories and nazism and stuff like that. But its totally possible for you to form your own opinions.
Good question I think it is still possible and some do it but it is a small minority.
I read our notion of the media is often wrong. The people do not solely copy the takes they hear in the media. Instead media determines about which topic they actually think. However, I have the feeling this only applies to classical media and not social media. The attention span is that short that invoking heated emotions and outrage seems to be the most important thing. There is not much space for independent thinking. And platforms like TikTok are full of propaganda. Maybe their observations are biased because their sources of information contain distortions. Furthermore, young people are idealistic and cling to utopian thinking. They do not like the status quo and hate which problems the older generations have caused to them.
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

Enlightened
Oct 15, 2023
1,791
Good question I think it is still possible and some do it but it is a small minority.
I read our notion of the media is often wrong. The people do not solely copy the takes they hear in the media. Instead media determines about which topic they actually think. However, I have the feeling this only applies to classical media and not social media. The attention span is that short that invoking heated emotions and outrage seems to be the most important thing. There is not much space for independent thinking. And platforms like TikTok are full of propaganda. Maybe their observations are biased because their sources of information contain distortions. Furthermore, young people are idealistic and cling to utopian thinking. They do not like the status quo and hate which problems the older generations have caused to them.
Yes, TikTok is Chinese malware.


But I also think yellow journalism has always existed, look at "Hearst" journalism


However fake news may be more prevalent now because there are more sources and outlets and also more access for foreign propaganda
 
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Tears in Rain

Tears in Rain

..............
Dec 12, 2023
858
Does a bear shit in the woods?
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

Enlightened
Oct 15, 2023
1,791
Good question I think it is still possible and some do it but it is a small minority.
I read our notion of the media is often wrong. The people do not solely copy the takes they hear in the media. Instead media determines about which topic they actually think. However, I have the feeling this only applies to classical media and not social media. The attention span is that short that invoking heated emotions and outrage seems to be the most important thing. There is not much space for independent thinking. And platforms like TikTok are full of propaganda. Maybe their observations are biased because their sources of information contain distortions. Furthermore, young people are idealistic and cling to utopian thinking. They do not like the status quo and hate which problems the older generations have caused to them.

Lol. Really? šŸ¤£ Did you see my DM?







I also think that there is a rise in secularism vs superstition but at the same time one of my fears is that we could see something like the Butlerian Jihad in Dune. A massive backlash against technology and science and see things stagnate.

 
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