Discussion Do suicidal thoughts ever go away again once they are manifested in our brains for many years, even after a successful recovery?

[Praestat_Mori]

The question is pretty much the title. This is probably more a question for people who are in a recovery process (or have recovered) or who were suicidal on and off in their lives.

 

[Pluto]

I would guess that it varies from person to person. It seems very common for teenagers to go through a suicidal phase, yet they usually end up completely forgetting about it.

Even for people with more substantial suicidal ideation, I imagine that a major recovery that leads to a well-adjusted lifestyle would reduce suicidal thoughts to a mere nuisance that is brushed away now and then.

Then there are those who struggle to achieve any meaningful change in circumstances. Ageing piles on additional challenges so they would be hard pushed to overcome their ideation. In my own case, it's like an elephant in the room every day - a lifestyle that achieves nothing but suffering.

Probably worth noting that the related issue of end-of-life euthanasia would likely arise at some point in later life. If not, it should. The slow and painful ways that elderly people can die is no joke.

 

[Kit1]

I attempted to end my life twice aged 14. I was fine in my 20s, 30s and early 40s - still had Complex PTSD, autistic, CFS and hit some extremely low points, but managed and coped etc, but not necessarily suicidal (I knew what I had to deal with the triggers and problems before they escalated to becoming suicidal. But the last three years have just been hell - life caught up and cannot see a way out now.

 

[Deleted member 8119]

At least, in my case, yes. I think pretty much everyone wants to not exist once in a while, as long as it's for short periods of time. I haven't seriously considered dying in years. I guess you have to counter the triggers to not relapse, improve whatever situation caused it, and work on the wounds after that.

A hard, long and sweaty process, but not impossible.

 

[Meteora]

I think you have not successfully recovered if you still think of suicide.
Edit: its actually a good question.... for me it was always clear that I wanna fight and do therapy so these thoughs will disappear. Depression is a symptom. Unfortunately, I was the only one thinking this.

 

[CuriosityAndCat]

Yes

 

[Tesha]

I first attempted in my 20's, then had 20 years building a successful and happy life. 4 years ago, my CPTSD and MDD started to overwhelm me again, and here I am.

Once you've seriously considered suicide but got through it, I think the thoughts just lay dormant ready to reemerge as an option once your life is utterly unliveable again.

 

[penguinl0v3s]

The question is pretty much the title. This is probably more a question for people who are in a recovery process (or have recovered) or who were suicidal on and off in their lives.

Yes.

I have no suicidal thoughts whatsoever anymore. I am desensitized to suicide from being on the forum and can casually think about the action of suicide, but I don't have a real desire for it to be me.

I'll have to remove suicide as a viable option for now (just the next few months) if I truly want to commit to recovery, because allowing yourself to ctb if things get hard is just lowering your stress tolerance and making stuff harder for yourself. I'll think about ctb if in the end I really don't like my progress after my artificially set time frame.

 

[tronix]

The question is pretty much the title. This is probably more a question for people who are in a recovery process (or have recovered) or who were suicidal on and off in their lives.

For a while I recovered and had a life, kind of a good one. But still, I had these thoughts. And now they hit hard. I cannot control them. They're here, just like that. They keep coming back.

 

[Unknown21]

Chronic suicidal ideation will still exist, but it can certainly be mitigated, reduced, and controlled, but I do not think it is completely curable. In any case, I hope you recover from these thoughts and live a happy life.

 

[Regen]

Yes. Still yes.

I had several years without thinking about suicide and I really dont understand why I want to die. It was like my brain were washed and I really dont understand how I could give the suicidal thoughts a place to be.

But when I get suicidal again it was like coming home and it was as I was never without these thoughts. It was like saying welcome back at home to a very good friend.

 

[todienomore]

Negative thinking grows the amygdala

 

[Praestat_Mori]

Negative thinking grows the amygdala

"Negative thinking grows" I think that's the keyword here and this way of negative thinking would have to be broken up but that may become impossible after many years of being exposed to triggers that cause that negative way of thinking.

 

[CuriosityAndCat]

"Negative thinking grows" I think that's the keyword here and this way of negative thinking would have to be broken up but that may become impossible after many years of being exposed to triggers that cause that negative way of thinking.

Considering I have CPTSD, which does cause larger amygdala and other structural changes. I also have a background in neuroscience. I think I can speak on this.

Changes in amygdala do not result in permanent suicidal thoughts, intrusive thoughts, or negative thoughts. That's not even the correct part of the brain for thoughts. It can mean less regulation around emotions and the like.

I don't have negative thoughts or intrusive thoughts. My only suicidal thoughts occur during flashbacks.

Suicidal thoughts and negative thoughts aren't chronic. I think the only cases I've seen in literature where it was chronic have been related to brain injuries: lesions, stroke, cancer, and the like.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

I would sum it up as "nothing is hard-coded into our brains" it's just hard to break up certain "connections" (if we can say it this way). This can be impossible for some and it can be impossible if external triggers were the reason and are still triggering certain thoughts.

I don't have negative thoughts or intrusive thoughts. My only suicidal thoughts occur during flashbacks.

I would assume if the negative experiences could be erased from your memory the flashbacks would disappear and together with them the suicidal thoughts when u have flashbacks as then you won't have flashbacks.

From this point of view suicidal thoughts never go away bc when sth is triggering a flashback the suicidal thoughts are back again. Sure, there might be coping mechanisms but it's not a cure in the sense of "they are erased".

I'm aware that all this stuff is complex and there's still a lot of stuff unknown in regards how our brains really work.

 

[CuriosityAndCat]

PTSD and CPTSD effectively can be cured. The latter as expected takes longer.

I don't really know where you're going with erasing memories. Many of the assumptions aren't correct. Suicidal thoughts being incurable because you can't erase memories isn't correct

 

[Praestat_Mori]

I don't really know where you're going with erasing memories.

This is what I mean: https://www.nature.com/articles/419883a traumatic experiences (as an example) are burnt into our memories. Other less severe negative experiences can also be burnt into our memories and we cannot simply erase these experiences (aka forget about them as if they never happened).

In the end it's learn to cope with the experience (with therapy, meds and other tools). That can work but there is no guarantee that it works. Especially when the person isn't actively willing to cope and therefore has given up and sees the only solution to it in suicide.

 

[CuriosityAndCat]

This is what I mean: https://www.nature.com/articles/419883a traumatic experiences (as an example) are burnt into our memories. Other less severe negative experiences can also be burnt into our memories and we cannot simply erase these experiences (aka forget about them as if they never happened).

In the end it's learn to cope with the experience (with therapy, meds and other tools). That can work but there is no guarantee that it works. Especially when the person isn't actively willing to cope and therefore has given up and sees the only solution to it in suicide.

So your assumption on how trauma works is off. So with trauma the reaction gets trained. You don't need to access the memory to have triggers and reactions. Often you'll find those with PTSD and CPTSD unable to access the memory due to it being repressed. They still experience triggers, emotional flashbacks, nightmares, and the like.

Yes, traumatic incidents form strong memories. Touching the memory usually results in triggering a reaction. Understanding of PTSD has improved quite a bit since that paper came out.

The trigger and behavior however remains. Treatment involves reprocessing the memory and retraining the behavior. In the end, it's like it's just a bad memory. You don't see the drop in activity in medial prefrontal cortex and the like on fmri.

Coping tools help deal with symptoms in the interim and dealing with stress from therapy.

Feelings of not caring about getting better, beliefs of hopelessness, and suicidal thoughts are symptoms of depression. You're justifying beliefs of suicidal ideation due to hopelessness. They're separate. Even without the hopelessness, it wouldn't necessarily eliminate the suicidal ideation. There are hopeless ppl who don't feel suicidal. These should be understood as individual symptoms of depression.

 

[SexyIncél]

Yes, there are mechanisms that cause the suicidal urges. Those mechanisms can be nullified. Some trivially — without any innovative leap in society or technology

 

[whiteclaudia]

I attempted to end my life twice aged 14. I was fine in my 20s, 30s and early 40s - still had Complex PTSD, autistic, CFS and hit some extremely low points, but managed and coped etc, but not necessarily suicidal (I knew what I had to deal with the triggers and problems before they escalated to becoming suicidal. But the last three years have just been hell - life caught up and cannot see a way out now.

if you don't mind my asking, do you think anything specific had to do with you being fine in those years? support, therapy, etc.

i go back and forth between whether i think managing cptsd is viable or not - if it's worth the trouble, knowing it will always be there in some capacity. i can't imagine there's ever complete recovery from childhood trauma, including suicidal ideation. it seems more like...harm reduction. i don't want to spend my life talking myself down.

sorry to be bleak - i certainly wouldn't base any opinions on my outlook, op. also in a low place right now.

 

[Kit1]

if you don't mind my asking, do you think anything specific had to do with you being fine in those years? support, therapy, etc.

i go back and forth between whether i think managing cptsd is viable or not - if it's worth the trouble, knowing it will always be there in some capacity. i can't imagine there's ever complete recovery from childhood trauma, including suicidal ideation. it seems more like...harm reduction. i don't want to spend my life talking myself down.

sorry to be bleak - i certainly wouldn't base any opinions on my outlook, op. also in a low place right now.

I reached out and actually got help in my late teens and had a supportive network of friend. I still had good days and bad days and went through periods of intense pain, flashbacks, nightmares, dissociation etc - but I was able to manage those ineltense periods. I love driving and would physically book time off work and just drive away for a few days if I had to - Inwould go away aline and I would return feeling better. I also managed the triggers better and there is anlot of unresolved trauma.

One of those unresolved traumas is that intense fear of masks and covid triggered that and everything went downhill. I have not been able to come out of this and no amount of drives is helping to reset the button - though it keeps me alive as I am at my calmest when I drive - within the countryside, mountains etc. Personally I think long term therapy (a minimum of two twice a week) will help - a therapist who actually care, will sit with me, listen whilst I work through the trauma and not look like s/he will run off to get a psychiatrist anytime I mention the word "suicide" - or team up with a psychiatrist who is going tonsuppirt and nt start talking about sectioning or start to panic. Unfortunately the UK medical system (NHS) is not set up to offer this package - they are short staffed, funding is just not available and they are not even able to support pur child and young people appropriately let alone the care needs of the adults. I cannot afford a private therapist. I have now reached out to a private therapist for online therapy - she is based abroad and she doesn't know that I am in the UK and I use a VPN for the sessions. The only problem is that there appears to be a cultural issue with this therapist, but early days yet - though having had three sessions, I found each of the sessions extremely tggering and I think the risk of suicide ha actually increased. She appears to think (and say) that being beaten up as a child is normal in certain cultures and this is a method of parents showing care..,

Please feel free to message me if you would like to chat and I hope you have a positive outcome. Take care.

 

[todienomore]

"Negative thinking grows" I think that's the keyword here and this way of negative thinking would have to be broken up but that may become impossible after many years of being exposed to triggers that cause that negative way of thinking.

It takes time, but theres key concepts to research like growing the hippocampus shrinks the amygdala. Hippocampus is key to learning/creativity. Some things also enhance neuroplasticity in the hippocampus. There are studies, I havent put the time in to understand it all but the science is there. Basically imho youre either building up negative circuits with fear or you are building up the ones that help you move forward. Emdr therapy touches on this in a sense.

 

[Valso]

Do suicidal thoughts ever go away again once they are manifested in our brains for many years, even after a successful recovery?

Do two failed attempts count as "successful recovery"? Cuz if they do, then my answer is "no, suicidal thoughts never go away". I still wanna leave this fucked up world one way or another and I keep looking for ways to do that.

 

[Ambivalent1]

Probably not. It gets embedded in the brain

 

[momento.mori]

The question is pretty much the title. This is probably more a question for people who are in a recovery process (or have recovered) or who were suicidal on and off in their lives.

I can personally say for me, No! I have finally accepted that I won't attempt suicide anymore and I'll go the natural way whatever and whenever that is. Because of my traumatic upbringing and current life suicide will always be the "easy" way to silence everything and be at peace. I've made the decision to stay because I take benzo's and narcs and after my last attempt the Dr probably should have taken me off them but he didn't and I never want to break his trust or risk him getting in trouble, and I couldn't imagine life without them they help me through those difficult days.

 

[N33dT0D13]

Truthfully, I've come not to mind the suicidal thoughts. I have OCD so I'm used to fucked up irrational thoughts and they don't really bother me now. What scares me is the notion that the thoughts are correct and that the world would be an objectively better place without me, even if only by a slight amount.

 

[sserafim]

Negative thinking grows the amygdala

Wdym

 

[todienomore]

you state of mind snowballs in a basic biological sense. your brain rewires for what you use it for.