Discussion Differentiating Impulsive vs Planned CTBs

[TAW122]

This isn't a new topic and there has been many discussions on what constitutes an impulsive CTB vs a planned CTB with some clear cut while others murky or grey. There are prolifers who view all CTBs to be impulsive or irrational while there are others who see some difference between the two but decide to gatekeep and decide (according to their view) on what is impulsive vs planned one. For the first camp of prolifers, they are the ones that cannot be easily reasoned with as they do not allow any room for reasoning and basically make life the most important value ever, above all else. The other kind of prolifers are the ones who confuse and incorrectly assume that planned CTBs to be impulsive as they only see the moment or instance in which the person attempts or chooses to CTB.

Anyway, without getting too complicated and conflating too many things at once, I will mainly focus on the latter kind of prolifers (as this topic is primarily about impulsive vs planned CTBs), whom are the ones who mistake the planned CTBs to be impulsive CTBs rather than well planned ones. The former camp simply just doesn't respect others' choice to live or die and forces life unconditionally.

With that said, there must be a way for someone to easily see whether someone's CTB is planned or if it is impulsive. A few examples (both classic ones and specific ones) come to mind.

Example Scenarios of Impulsive CTB:
1) S has just broken up with her boyfriend, and in a fit of grief, unable to cope, finds a bridge and jumps off. Her body was found the next day by first responders.
2) C has recently lost his job and savings, he is immediately in a state of panic and thinks that it is over for him, he won't recover from it. He drives into a large body of water in which his body was not found until a few days later (after people who know him filed missing persons report not knowing whether he is dead or alive).

Example Scenarios of Planned CTB:
1) F has suffered greatly throughout her life, from childhood to adulthood and generally unhappy. She has done what she did to try to improve her situation. However, that isn't enough and there isn't anything in the world to that (to her) is worth sticking around. She then starts researching ways to CTB, acquiring said materials, and then tying loose ends. When the time comes and the conditions are right, she mustered all the courage she has and finally CTBs. (For this example I will presume that she has successfully CTB'd and is no longer suffering).
2) R has been miserable his whole life, and recently his health has deteriorated even further, causing him to suffer even more and his quality of life (already poor) has only gotten worse, with little prospect to improve. Even the doctors and experts who know of his conditions gave a dire prognosis that while he isn't terminally ill, his quality of life is not going to improve dramatically but may just deteriorate over the course of years. R decides that this is not a life worth living and he has suffered enough. He makes a plan to CTB and instead of going through the undignified violent way of CTB'ing, he applies to a right to die organization, seeking peace and hoping that he will receive it. (We will assume his request was granted and he is no longer suffering)
3) Additionally there is a famous example in the news of a very successful person who lived to exactly 60 years of age before he CTB'd. He didn't have many issues in life, in fact, he was pretty successful and even in good health for his age. Furthermore, he meticulously planned out his death and executed exactly as he planned.

Those are just some sample scenarios of what I believe to be clear-cut, distinct scenarios of impulsive and planned CTBs. Now in reality and in practice, it is more complicated than that, there are events and causes that precede a person from going down that path, there are times where at an instance it can look to be "impulsive" from an outside observer (who doesn't know all the details or the entire background). While there isn't a hard rule, or exact way of determining what is impulsive or not especially in murky scenarios, I do believe that considering the timeline of events, causes, and reasons a person may have to lead them to their decision are all very important factors when determining whether the person's choice was impulsive vs planned, especially when they know the person.

What are your thoughts on the examples given, or just on the topic in general? Do you believe that the latter camp of prolifers would come around if they knew the difference or no? (I'm not referring to the ones who are steadfast in their view of life is great, the former camp.)

 

[Rounded Apathy]

I'm about to fall asleep so this post is really just an earmark for myself to potentially return to later, but I wonder if, for both types of situations, they're perceived incorrectly because of what we don't know about the person or the history in question.

In your theoretical "impulsive" scenarios - did these people have histories of seemingly unrelated trauma? Undiagnosed mental disorders, hidden stressors, etc.? What was it that made them not only think about dying as a viable option in the critical moment, but to act on it? Same as in the planned scenarios - I feel as though people suffer like these either have no one they feel they can confide in, or they legitimately don't, so when the light goes out so to speak, it seems like this sudden thing. If no one knows or is aware of I'm thinking of offing myself, or at least not how seriously, then of course it doesn't seem like it was reasoned out.

That's all the brain can muster for now.

 

[StreetSweeper]

From what i get from the examples, is the length of the suffering. The implusive examples are panic reacting to a senario they havent had the chance to analyze. The planned examples start off with "their whole life" for their length of suffering. They have had time to weigh the pros and cons, made a decision, and stick to it regardless of fluxuating emotions. Or, they have been brought to the point of an attempt so many times, that there would be a bread crumb trail of clues in their life that explains their decision. So if somebody was impulisvly reaction to a new situtation, but already has a history with attempts, where would we catagorize them? impulsive or planned? It could be argued "implusive" because of the immidate reaction. It could be argued "planned" because suicide has been a clear safety net/emergency plan in the back of their mind long before whatever new situation they are currently reacting to.

I do think some pro-life people would come to understand the other side more with either personal or second hand expereince with suicide. We as community members here clearly have invested time speculating, absorbing knowledge, reading testimomies, and researching methods. Pro-life people have never put more than a surfave level effort into understanding the phenomenon. Or, they have been effected by it somehow, and their pain and confusion has let their rage and ignorance dominate their opinions on suicide.

I think a interesting topic of discussion that could also be taken from your post, is what makes a suicide "justified"?. Nobody has the right to tell people how they should feel, but in our hearts, we know a lifetime of physical pain with no chance at normaility is a more jusitifable reason than your bf/gf breaking up with you. Its risky for me to say that, because a break up could be the straw that breaks your back, and who am i to judge...but lets take the guy who suffered all his life (2R); they have been through so much for so long that i dont even think they have the ability to quailfy for a "impulsive" suicide because its a wonder how they even make it through every 24 hours anyway.

Interesting post, thanks for making it.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'm guessing that the implication is that the impulsive attempts are fleet of the moment 'mistakes'. Whereas planned CTB's imply a longer period of suffering- so are more 'justified?' (As StreetSweeper just mentioned.)

I suppose- seeing as this post refers to the viewpoint of the pro-lifer a lot- it depends on their 'rules'. Some will never condone any suicide because they believe it is wrong under any circumstances. Some condone suicide for those with terminal illness but nothing else, some may be more 'lenient' than that and empathise with people who are suffering long-term. I doubt any pro-lifer would sympathise with what they saw as an impulsive CTB.

As to what constitutes an impulsive attempt- I agree- I think anything that took buying stuff isn't an impulsive attempt but I think people like to think it was because they hate to think they either missed or ignored the signs.

Personally though- I think pro-lifers see life very differently to the way we do. It comes down I suppose to whether you believe life in itself is 'precious'. If so- then yes- it makes sense to fight through all adversity to hold on to it. If not- then it doesn't matter if you kill yourself on impulse, plan it over decades or die of natural causes. The result is still the same- the person has just encountered varying lengths of suffering and rest bite along the way.

It's the effect it has on those left behind that I suppose varies the most. I would imagine an impulsive CTB is more shocking than one people saw coming. I suppose they find the impulsive one the most distressing because it seems to have the least cause (at least- to them) and maybe they feel like it inflicts the most pain on THEM.

At the end of the day, I suppose most pro-life stuff just irritates me because I believe my life (and my death) are ultimately MINE. Not to say we don't all consider the people around us but I don't feel anyone should have to justify or quantify just how awful they feel to be 'allowed' to want to CTB.

 

[TAW122]

I've read all the responses so far, and they are quite thoughtful. I will state that my purpose of bringing up this subject is to raise awareness of the common problem that people have in trying to differentiate between impulsive and planned CTBs. I do believe that most people believe that impulsive CTBs, oftenly without careful thought should be prevented and that seems reasonable, however, to treat all CTBs as impulsive or even denying planned CTB and treating a "planned, carefully thought-out CTB" to be impulsive, is the problem. Also, the aim of this thread is to find out where the line is (if there is any, which is most likely subjective and based on what the status quo's stance is) with regards to what constitutes as impulsive and planned CTBs. I believe that society as a whole and the people need to better differentiate between impulsive and planned CTBs more distinctly so that they do not lump all CTBs as impulsive. As for the people who don't agree with CTB at all, this thread is not directed towards them as they are not open to changing their minds nor accepting CTB as a valid, legitimate choice of free will.

@Rounded Apathy In my scenarios, I kept it simple as to not overwhelm the reader and it will be presumed that the person who has planned to CTB is thinking rationally and knows that he/she is choosing a permanent decision that cannot be reversed. As for the impulsive ones, for simplicity purposes I will presume that they are rational actors but they have just had a spur of the moment, snap decision rather than having some underlying mental/psychological disorder that caused them to act that way. Of course, having a mental disorder does not necessarily imply that they are incapable of making decisions nor understanding the ramifications of their decision (permanent decision that cannot be reversed).

I liked @StreetSweeper post regarding the point of view of prolifers with some having varying degrees of leniency and criteria of what constitutes a justifiable cause/reason for CTB. I believe very few prolifers may be completely against those who are suffering from terminal illness especially those with a very short time to live before death and may even be more willing to allow them to CTB peacefully, whereas a non-terminal but severely ill person (physically and psychologically) may be gatekept by prolifers to stay a bit longer or even just denied a peaceful, dignified exit.

@Forever Sleep Ultimately, yes when there is an universal right to die (which is why I support movements like "The Right To No Longer Exist" as they push for voluntary euthanasia for everyone as a basic civil right), then the stigma as well as shame will be lessened (or even dissolve altogether) and true freedom of choice of one's own life will come. I don't know if/when that will come, perhaps in our lifetime or maybe beyond that (assuming that society accepts it in some form - likely with limits and safeguards).

 

[FuneralCry]

I don't particularly see why it would matter if someone's ctb was more planned out than someone else's, as long as the less planning doesn't result in a failed attempt. After all, nobody really knows what went through that person's mind and how they experienced life as it's impossible for someone else to see life from their perspective, so people have no right to call others decision to ctb as being 'impulsive'. A lot of people hide how they truly see life from others as well.

I just think that regardless of the circumstances surrounding it, suicide is a personal decision which should be respected. Nobody has any obligations to stay here after all. And staying alive is only delaying the inevitable anyway, as humans we only just exist to die and be forgotten about. But yet if someone stays alive they have the potential of experiencing such extreme suffering on top of their current problems and to die would prevent this. And existing is pointless anyway, so nobody can call suicide irrational, I personally believe that wanting to leave this world is more rational than continuing to exist, but after all only the individual knows what is best for themselves.

 

[RUPA]

I think both play a role. You carefully thoughtfully plan it and at the moment you act upon it, impulsivity is needed

 

[makethepainstop]

Suicide is so personal and human motivations are unpredictable. One case of using a firearm after getting fired, is a quickie. Now someone who has been thinking about suicide for years, might be called a quickie too, for all the wrong reasons. He shot himself for no reason, bang he was gone. But it was only his action of suicide that was quick. He had been planning for years or even decades. I

 

[Hurt]

I can relate to F. I've been like that for years and this is not impulsive. However I don't have a good plan.

 

[TAW122]

I don't particularly see why it would matter if someone's ctb was more planned out than someone else's, as long as the less planning doesn't result in a failed attempt. After all, nobody really knows what went through that person's mind and how they experienced life as it's impossible for someone else to see life from their perspective, so people have no right to call others decision to ctb as being 'impulsive'. A lot of people hide how they truly see life from others as well.

I just think that regardless of the circumstances surrounding it, suicide is a personal decision which should be respected. Nobody has any obligations to stay here after all. And staying alive is only delaying the inevitable anyway, as humans we only just exist to die and be forgotten about. But yet if someone stays alive they have the potential of experiencing such extreme suffering on top of their current problems and to die would prevent this. And existing is pointless anyway, so nobody can call suicide irrational, I personally believe that wanting to leave this world is more rational than continuing to exist, but after all only the individual knows what is best for themselves.

Yes, and ultimately, I wished for a world where voluntary euthanasia is legal and available to anyone that wants it, though in reality that may not likely come in our lifetime or even at all (depending on how society is at that future point in time). Yes, at the end life itself is inherently meaningless and that everyone who was born and alive will ultimately expire at some point in time, be it through their own cause, or by other causes (indirect or direct). I do agree with the sentence which is why I've strongly support groups like TRTNLE (The Right To No Longer Exist) as they advocate and fight for voluntary euthanasia on a global scale.

 

[TAW122]

Also, just had another thought regarding this topic from reading Forever Sleep's reply again in closer detail.

I'm guessing that the implication is that the impulsive attempts are fleet of the moment 'mistakes'. Whereas planned CTB's imply a longer period of suffering- so are more 'justified?' (As StreetSweeper just mentioned.)

I suppose- seeing as this post refers to the viewpoint of the pro-lifer a lot- it depends on their 'rules'. Some will never condone any suicide because they believe it is wrong under any circumstances. Some condone suicide for those with terminal illness but nothing else, some may be more 'lenient' than that and empathise with people who are suffering long-term. I doubt any pro-lifer would sympathise with what they saw as an impulsive CTB.

As to what constitutes an impulsive attempt- I agree- I think anything that took buying stuff isn't an impulsive attempt but I think people like to think it was because they hate to think they either missed or ignored the signs.

Personally though- I think pro-lifers see life very differently to the way we do. It comes down I suppose to whether you believe life in itself is 'precious'. If so- then yes- it makes sense to fight through all adversity to hold on to it. If not- then it doesn't matter if you kill yourself on impulse, plan it over decades or die of natural causes. The result is still the same- the person has just encountered varying lengths of suffering and rest bite along the way.

It's the effect it has on those left behind that I suppose varies the most. I would imagine an impulsive CTB is more shocking than one people saw coming. I suppose they find the impulsive one the most distressing because it seems to have the least cause (at least- to them) and maybe they feel like it inflicts the most pain on THEM.

At the end of the day, I suppose most pro-life stuff just irritates me because I believe my life (and my death) are ultimately MINE. Not to say we don't all consider the people around us but I don't feel anyone should have to justify or quantify just how awful they feel to be 'allowed' to want to CTB.

Regarding impulsive CTBs, the prolifer's logic seems contradictory and by that I mean they don't want to allow impulse CTBs as they see it to be impulsive and irrational, even to the extent of a mental disorder/illness, thus it means that they have to at least allow voluntary euthanasia. They want to both see the signs and prevent it (which goes against the concept of a 'planned CTB' as they even regard planning a rational CTB to be irrational!) yet doesn't isn't going to accept impulsive CTB's which is mostly a product of stigmatization and fear of (temporary) deprivation of civil liberties and freedom in the name of 'safety' and mental health.

Another way to put it is that you can't have your cake and eat it at the same time, which is what prolifers want to do. They don't want to have impulsive and violent CTBs, yet they don't also accept planned, rational, and clear-minded CTBs based on careful planning, rational decision making.

For the person CTB'ing, it is a dilemma because even having a planned CTB though rational thought, reasoning, planning, and what not is considered irrational, therefore, they default towards the impulsive option (at least impulsive to the prolifer observing from the outside but not impulsive to the person experiencing suffering and making said decision). On one hand, the person wanting to CTB doesn't wish it to be impulsive (assuming they want control over their own death on their own terms - which I believe most people who want to CTB do), but because prolifers view even planning to CTB (over a length of time), understanding the ramifications and decision of CTBing, or just the act itself to be irrational, the person CTB'ing would then turn to impulse in order to avoid having their wishes or plans foiled. On the other hand, for some people they have planned CTBs but because prolifers refuse to see it as rational, they must hide their intentions and aren't able to pursue their choice (which makes the person wanting to CTB less selfish than the prolifer yet the prolifer always see the CTBer as selfish and irrational).

In short, there is no good nor easy decision for the pro-choicer and quite an unfair burden placed on the pro-choicer when it comes to CTB'ing. Again, I do claim that most people who CTB would be less inclined to do so impulsively if the stigma wasn't around, if there was an legal peaceful and dignified option, and with no threat of detainment; commitment; or even being locked up against one's will for pursuing or even discussing said topic with a professional. So until society becomes what I described in terms of open discussion on the topic of CTB (without censorship or persecution), then sadly, these tragedies will continue to persist with varying degrees of impact towards everyone.

I hope my reply makes sense since the wording can be loaded and confusing. Let me know if you need clarification.

 

[leeloosnow]

A topic I've considered a lot, more so since Ive been involved here. For context- I really relate to F in planned-1. I'm 40ish, have struggled with mental health and circumstantial issues my whole life. I currently have ctb plans which I've been working on for a few months. Twice this year I have set a date, once it fell thru bc life interruptions and the second, TBD this week. I consider myself pro-choice thru n thru. There are folks that bring life into this world on an impulse, and ones that take life out of this world on an impulse. Imo more planning, discussion, research, and trials one puts into a decision, the outcome will be more acceptable for the person and others involved. I think prolifers are that way largely because of how ingrained religion, (Christianity I'm looking at you) is is society. I mean, it's literally a sin to them, even in the most publicly palatable situations. People still talk about Terri schaivo. Even folks who aren't religious often have influences from those who are, I think it's unavoidable. I don't think it's coincidence that antiabortion ppl are that way bc of religion as well. Kinda boils down to humans who are unwilling or incapable of questioning their own beliefs. By nature it feels good to be right, it's hard to admit wrongdoing. It's easy to keep thinking the same, outdated, inapplicable, disproven things, it's hard to look at new evidence, carefully consider that, verify it, apply it to existing morals, and *shudder* incrementally become a better person. I think that's way the fuck outta reach for a lot of society. Probably a big reason why I don't fit, why I'm generally dissatisfied, often ostracized and downright pissed. It's encouraging to see some nations progress, and consider individual wellbeing before profit, but there's a frightening amount of backsliding. The US is technically a "flawed democracy", I mean, not like y'all wouldn't agree but most r like FK YA MURICA #1. That's exactly the same mentality of "oh but why didn't she say something, we offered her this, and that, why would she do such a "horrible thing". The horrible thing happened long ago, over and over. People, even the well intentioned, struggle to deal with that. Abuse, addiction, loss, pain, problems. They mean well, but they often have their own limitations. I wouldn't place the entirety of my ctb on any one person, action, or inaction. And I wouldn't place fixing my fucked up life on any one person or action. It just is not reasonable. There's a lot of good in the world, good people doing good shit. And ofc plenty of evil, mistakes, so called regrettable situations. It's rare to find someone capable have genuine existential debate, that doesn't give me much hope for society in general. That being the case, life always find a way. So does death. Hopefully someday humans have a truly egalitarian society and I'm sure ctb will be perfectly acceptable when that happens. I don't like the proliferation and glorification of gun culture because it enables this impulsivity, it causes so many regrettable choices. Ctb by most other means requires a little more footwork, therefore thought and intention. I try to be careful here to not come off pro-lifey but I often find myself wanting to encourage ppl mid-crisis to simply wait and think just a little bit first. I hope anyone who ctb can weigh what are the circumstances, what are the motivations, influences, and what are the options. And absolutely, once all the factors are considered and someone wants to ctb, it's their choice. The full reality, extent of trauma and suffering is something known only by the person who is experiencing it. I couldn't ever comprehend their experience therefore I wouldn't be able to give them accurate advice to ctb or not. I don't think that level of introspection is common, it's evident by how they conduct their own lives, how they view others choices/actions, and why we're such a broken society. Yea. I just hope people try and truly consider anything they're doing. Fuck, if everyone did that I probably wouldn't need to ctb myself.
One last thought- people come to sasu, or wanna ctb and some do find other options and go on to live acceptable lives. That doesn't mean their reasons weren't valid at that time, but their situation or their understanding about their situation changed. I try to say shit that is useful for us to have a better life or better death, so encouraging a little strategy either way, I hope it's helpful. Definitely lots of grey areas there I'm sure. Good discussion, thanks!

 

[Forever Sleep]

Also, just had another thought regarding this topic from reading Forever Sleep's reply again in closer detail.



Regarding impulsive CTBs, the prolifer's logic seems contradictory and by that I mean they don't want to allow impulse CTBs as they see it to be impulsive and irrational, even to the extent of a mental disorder/illness, thus it means that they have to at least allow voluntary euthanasia. They want to both see the signs and prevent it (which goes against the concept of a 'planned CTB' as they even regard planning a rational CTB to be irrational!) yet doesn't isn't going to accept impulsive CTB's which is mostly a product of stigmatization and fear of (temporary) deprivation of civil liberties and freedom in the name of 'safety' and mental health.

Another way to put it is that you can't have your cake and eat it at the same time, which is what prolifers want to do. They don't want to have impulsive and violent CTBs, yet they don't also accept planned, rational, and clear-minded CTBs based on careful planning, rational decision making.

For the person CTB'ing, it is a dilemma because even having a planned CTB though rational thought, reasoning, planning, and what not is considered irrational, therefore, they default towards the impulsive option (at least impulsive to the prolifer observing from the outside but not impulsive to the person experiencing suffering and making said decision). On one hand, the person wanting to CTB doesn't wish it to be impulsive (assuming they want control over their own death on their own terms - which I believe most people who want to CTB do), but because prolifers view even planning to CTB (over a length of time), understanding the ramifications and decision of CTBing, or just the act itself to be irrational, the person CTB'ing would then turn to impulse in order to avoid having their wishes or plans foiled. On the other hand, for some people they have planned CTBs but because prolifers refuse to see it as rational, they must hide their intentions and aren't able to pursue their choice (which makes the person wanting to CTB less selfish than the prolifer yet the prolifer always see the CTBer as selfish and irrational).

In short, there is no good nor easy decision for the pro-choicer and quite an unfair burden placed on the pro-choicer when it comes to CTB'ing. Again, I do claim that most people who CTB would be less inclined to do so impulsively if the stigma wasn't around, if there was an legal peaceful and dignified option, and with no threat of detainment; commitment; or even being locked up against one's will for pursuing or even discussing said topic with a professional. So until society becomes what I described in terms of open discussion on the topic of CTB (without censorship or persecution), then sadly, these tragedies will continue to persist with varying degrees of impact towards everyone.

I hope my reply makes sense since the wording can be loaded and confusing. Let me know if you need clarification.

Yes, I think I understand what you mean and absolutely agree with you.

I suspect some pro-lifers- the more lenient of them anyhow- just about 'allow' assisted CTB in clinics- approved by doctors. Yet, as this is something only a proportion of people qualify for (and can afford- it looks super expensive), many HAVE to resort to methods which probably look appalling to 'rational' people. Let's face it- they look appaling to us! It's not like many of us really WANT to put ourselves through poisoning/ hanging/ jumping from a great height/ drowning etc.

I just wish- rather than seeing all these attempts as impulsive that they showed a bit more compassion and recognised that they were desperate acts to free us from a life that for whatever reason- had become intolerable and because 'authorised' methods weren't available.

Going to sound ridiculous, but if I ever manage to summon the courage to CTB, I want to leave a note apologising to the poor sods who have to clean the mess up. I want to make it clear that I would have chosen assisted CTB in a clinic- had it been available- which would have negated all that trauma for them and possibly my neighbours... plus the mess.

Perhaps attitudes will change in time. I think, as a race we are becoming more secular- or- at least fiercely questioning the rules set out in religion. I feel like that is one major obstacle to assisted CTB. I also think we like the thought of being in control of our own fates. I suppose the assisted CTB clinics do seem to be accepting a broader range of people now. I believe both mental health issues and even young adults are now considered if their lives are considered 'appaling' enough. Perhaps one day, pro choice will be more prevalent. I very much doubt we'll get to see it in our lifetimes though- sadly.

 

[TAW122]

Perhaps attitudes will change in time. I think, as a race we are becoming more secular- or- at least fiercely questioning the rules set out in religion. I feel like that is one major obstacle to assisted CTB. I also think we like the thought of being in control of our own fates. I suppose the assisted CTB clinics do seem to be accepting a broader range of people now. I believe both mental health issues and even young adults are now considered if their lives are considered 'appaling' enough. Perhaps one day, pro choice will be more prevalent. I very much doubt we'll get to see it in our lifetimes though- sadly.

This is a good point, though I have run into secular prolifers too and instead of using religion as a way to justify their beliefs and imposition of their beliefs onto others. I had a similar conversation with someone (who isn't religious) several years ago and she stood her ground on the fact that life is good and a "positive" according to her viewpoint. She is a humanist and she even go as far to claim that people who are alive (despite having shitty lives or even severely disabled - physically and psychologically) are WORTH living. She is completely against the concept of having a right to die or even consider voluntary euthanasia as an option.

Therefore, even though we are becoming more secular, other threats towards the right to die and pro-choicers are those pro-life sentiments filling the vacuum left behind by religion.