Debate on antinatalism

[death137]

 

[heretogethelp]

Anti-natalism is 100% correct.

 

[Superdeterminist]

Based on the title of the video I think I've seen this already, if it's the same as this one



The one you linked I have to verify my age to watch. It's a very interesting debate, a clash of two very different minds. I don't agree with antinatalism, although I side more with Benatar over Peterson in general. I feel that supporting antinatalism is like laying claim over everyone's lives, including those who would live despite all the suffering. It's equivalent to pronatalists banning suicide, in my view. Although I feel very strongly that I want to die and that death should be easy for me, I have to recognise that there are other people who don't feel that way at all about their own lives.

 

[heretogethelp]

Based on the title of the video I think I've seen this already, if it's the same as . The one you linked I have to verify my age to watch. It's a very interesting debate, a clash of two very different minds. I don't agree with antinatalism, although I side more with Benatar over Peterson in general. I feel that supporting antinatalism is like laying claim over everyone's lives, including those who would live despite all the suffering. It's equivalent to pronatalists banning suicide, in my view. Although I feel very strongly that I want to die and that death should be easy for me, I have to recognise that there are other people who don't feel that way at all about their own lives.

I understand that the majority of ppl in the world are not anti-natalist. But, I don't agree with the pro-natalist argument, it doesn't stand up in the face of logic.

 

[death137]

Based on the title of the video I think I've seen this already, if it's the same as this one



The one you linked I have to verify my age to watch. It's a very interesting debate, a clash of two very different minds. I don't agree with antinatalism, although I side more with Benatar over Peterson in general. I feel that supporting antinatalism is like laying claim over everyone's lives, including those who would live despite all the suffering. It's equivalent to pronatalists banning suicide, in my view. Although I feel very strongly that I want to die and that death should be easy for me, I have to recognise that there are other people who don't feel that way at all about their own lives.

I understand your point. But breeders are creating more sufferings. The best thing to do is to spread awareness of antinatalism so ppl can stop breeding by their own choice. But some ppl will still say no. Nowadays the prolifers are in power but there might be a period where antinatalists will be in power and I hope they forcefully sterilize those who refused. But even this happen now it won't do help to us who are already born. What helps us is the legalizing of euthanasia for everyone. But this won't happen in our lifetime.

 

[Life_and_Death]

I hope they forcefully sterilize those who refused.

so if im understanding this right, which theres a possibility im not but i dont think so, you want to take away peoples freedom. i thought this was a prochoice site?

 

[death137]

so if im understanding this right, which theres a possibility im not but i dont think so, you want to take away peoples freedom. i thought this was a prochoice site?

Yes it's a pro-choice is a sense one can say I want to die or live without being judged. But I'm talking about creating life/suffering. But if the admins or mods finds it to violate the site law then I've no problem with it being removed.

 

[BottomlessPit]

It's equivalent to pronatalists banning suicide, in my view.

Suicide only involves you as an individual, no one else his hurt by it, at least not directly. The same cannot be said for procreation. The parents are the ones who make the decision but in the end it is the child who has to live with the consequences of being brought into existence.

Although I feel very strongly that I want to die and that death should be easy for me, I have to recognise that there are other people who don't feel that way at all about their own lives.

Maybe you are mistaking antinatalism with promortalism? Antinatalism merely assigns a negative value to birth. The question it answers is whether or not a life should be started, not if it should be taken. So antinatalism has no problems with happy people.

Regardless, even if people are happy with their lives that doesn't give them the right to impose life and create a person who has no way to give their consent. Saying "but it's the decision of the parents so it's okay" is like saying "it was the decision of the rapist to violate someone, so it's okay".
No-one was ever hurt by nonexistence, the same can't be said for existence. The potential misery that could befall anyone on earth is enough to call the creation of another person into question.

I feel that supporting antinatalism is like laying claim over everyone's lives, including those who would live despite all the suffering.

The ones who would've wanted to live despite all the suffering won't be there to grieve their nonexistence since they were never conceived to begin with.


EDIT: it's also worth pointing out that Antinatalism doesn't necessarily entail things like forced sterilization or any of that sort. There are many antinatalists who don't agree with such practices, most just want to make the philosophy public in order to convince as many people as possible to voluntarily refrain from giving birth.
Antinatalism as a philosophy only has one single statement: that procreation is unethical. That's it.

 

[Superdeterminist]

Suicide only involves you as an individual, no one else his hurt by it, at least not directly. The same cannot be said for procreation. The parents are the ones who make the decision but in the end it is the child who has to live with the consequences of being brought into existence.


Maybe you are mistaking antinatalism with promortalism? Antinatalism merely assigns a negative value to birth. The question it answers is whether or not a life should be started, not if it should be taken. So antinatalism has no problems with happy people.

Regardless, even if people are happy with their lives that doesn't give them the right to impose life and create a person who has no way to give their consent. Saying "but it's the decision of the parents so it's okay" is like saying "it was the decision of the rapist to violate someone, so it's okay".
No-one was ever hurt by nonexistence, the same can't be said for existence. The potential misery that could befall anyone on earth is enough to call the creation of another person into question.

The ones who would've wanted to live despite all the suffering won't be there to grieve their nonexistence since they were never conceived to begin with.

I agree it's impossible to justify the potential suffering of any conscious being. But I think the apparent end-goal of antinatalism, to outlaw/prevent any creation of life, is problematic. Forcing anyone to do anything is always an issue, there is something immoral (in my view) about forced sterilisation for example. If you could convince everyone to get on board with antinatalism then maybe it would be morally sound. But I don't think that will ever happen, there will always be pronatalists, and individuals who when asked if they are happy they were born, will answer resoundingly yes.

Does the happiness of these pro-life individuals justify the suffering of the less fortunate? Absolutely not. But I don't think the misery of the unlucky gives us licence to revoke everyone's rights to procreate. The best compromise (imo) is a right to die, where suffering still happens, and that is terrible (for some), but we can opt to end the program if it gets too much for us. I don't think anyone can say objectively whether suffering (a broad term covering many different experiences) makes life not worth it. For me it makes death preferable over life, but for another it won't. I can't and won't try and speak for them and what they want.

I am so opposed to the potential suffering in life that I'm uncomfortable defending pronatalists as I type this response. But I can't deny their experiences, and I feel we have to respect their perspectives if we are to expect them to respect ours. As well, I'm personally torn about my own life. I don't know if I would've preferred to have never been born. I'm pretty sure I want to die NOW, but I've had a few amazing and beautiful experiences here that I wouldn't want to never have happen.

 

[Life_and_Death]

Yes it's a pro-choice is a sense one can say I want to die or live without being judged. But I'm talking about creating life/suffering. But if the admins or mods finds it to violate the site law then I've no problem with it being removed.

Oh i didnt mean it in that aspect just that people should be able to choose whether or not to have kids (of course depending on the person. Some really really shouldnt).

 

[loopylou]

Again?

 

[WornOutLife]

I used to like Jordan Peterson a lot but since he became more emotional and "kinda religious" (due to different things that happened in his life and I totally respect but don't agree with that. There's even one video in which he cries because of Jesus), I find his debates too biased.

Anyway, I didn't know anything about antinatalism unti the beginning of this year I think.

I mean, I've always thought bringing children into this world is one of the cruelist things two human beings could do and then I found out that I'm an antinatalist because of it haha.

 

[bad_luck]

I'm not entirely buying Benatar's argument (seems a bit reductive), but no doubt he makes some good points and deserves to be taken seriously.

 

[motel rooms]

Jordan Peterson His unique mix of pseudointellectualism, Christianity, sexism, mythology, transphobia, right-wing hysteria & stating the obvious is always irresistible...