Death Penalty

[WhiteRabbit]

Without possibility of prisons like today in the past then you think advocating for killers to be let free is a better idea? I am open to suggestions

I guess if society is at that point, it makes sense, but I still think it's barbaric. We don't need it today.

 

[LastFlowers]

Hmm. Nature can act on things that aren't animals, though. Even if I thought we weren't animals (i do, of course, i just think we're fundamentally very different from them) I could still argue that nature has a massive effect on us. Rocks aren't animals but they're affected by nature. Tectonic plates, planetary movements. Huge things that aren't animals but still natural. Humans could be that, hypothetically, just in a different way.

I meant in the sense of someone saying "Oh I can't help but do this, it's in my nature, I'm an animal after all, you can't expect me to control this urge to [insert harmful act or sentiment]"
And then they switch right back to "Oh human beings are above animals because they transcend their more animalistic tendencies!"
I hope that clears up what I was meaning to say.
We are usually all about progression of our species but at the same time much of the status quo in place is often excused by reasoning that it harks back to our primitive nature, that we "can't help it", even though plenty of others have proven otherwise.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Personally if I committed a serious enough crime I would actually prefer the death penalty as opposed to a life in prison sentence but that could just be the suicidality I hold in general talking. I do think in some cases the death penalty does appear to be the more merciful option since death can be seen as a release from suffering. The only reason the death penalty could be guaranteed to be the worst option is if there was a guarantee of consequences in the afterlife or something similar.

Then again, what if the afterlife is actually designed to be a prison of its own that actually offers chances of parole or rehabilitation? This makes way more sense than eternal hellfire because like it or not, that sort of punishment does not fit any crime humanly possible to achieve. And even if it is, it ignores the circumstances that led the human to commit these sorts of crimes or sink into such evil in the first place so eternal suffering as a punishment still doesn't make any sense because it doesn't give the soul any more chances. In this scenario too it might also be better to have simply left the criminal to rot in the real world prison for as long as possible first before they get to die and be put to the test.

I guess it really just depends on whether the person fears dying more than continuing to suffer. A lot of prisons though even maximum security ones aren't as terrible to live in as you'd think especially not for higher profile criminals with plenty of resources on the outside to make their experiences more comfortable. Even without that, people can adapt to all kinds of bad situations and after a while, life in prison could have diminishing returns when it comes to actually making the person feel sorry for what they did…

 

[Snake of Eden]

Then again, what if the afterlife is actually designed to be a prison of its own that actually offers chances of parole or rehabilitation? This makes way more sense than eternal hellfire because like it or not, that sort of punishment does not fit any crime humanly possible to achieve. And even if it is, it ignores the circumstances that led the human to commit these sorts of crimes or sink into such evil in the first place so eternal suffering as a punishment still doesn't make any sense because it doesn't give the soul any more chances. In this scenario too it might also be better to have simply left the criminal to rot in the real world prison for as long as possible first before they get to die and be put to the test.

Just wanted to touch on the point you made here that some religions do have the idea of redemption/penance/rehabilitation after death even with eternal hell fire in the picture. I think the eternal hellfire is overly emphasized than other aspects because of its horror effect as a deterrant. I dont want to derail this too much because this is not the point here but since you brought up the afterlife into this, i wanted to clear that up

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Just wanted to touch on the point you made here that some religions do have the idea of redemption/penance/rehabilitation after death even with eternal hell fire in the picture. I think the eternal hellfire is overly emphasized than other aspects because of its horror effect as a deterrant. I dont want to derail this too much because this is not the point here but since you brought up the afterlife into this, i wanted to clear that up

True, though I doubt that such things as redemption can be effective if someone is eternally suffering at the same time. I already can't imagine myself having any urge to get better if life is going to continue to punish me at the same time.

Even things like reincarnation/karma don't paint a good picture either. If it's true what they say and for example, the punishment for being an abuser is to be abused in your next life then wouldn't that raise the chances that everybody being abused right now actually deserves it because it means they were in turn likely an abuser in their past life?

But yeah, this is just one example of my point and how I think that when you really dissect most depictions of the afterlife, it still makes more sense (for me at least) for most people faced with judgment for their actions to realize that the death penalty is easily the better choice. Of course most of them don't actually get to choose but I'm wagering if they could they might prefer it but again that could just be my own bias showing. What I'm really trying to say is that the death penalty just seems more like mercy as opposed to the brutal and cruel punishment some people see it as.

 

[Snake of Eden]

True, though I doubt that such things as redemption can be effective if someone is eternally suffering at the same time. I already can't imagine myself having any urge to get better if life is going to continue to punish me at the same time.

Even things like reincarnation/karma don't paint a good picture either. If it's true what they say and for example, the punishment for being an abuser is to be abused in your next life then wouldn't that raise the chances that everybody being abused right now actually deserves it because it means they were in turn likely an abuser in their past life?

But yeah, this is just one example of my point and how I think that when you really dissect most depictions of the afterlife, it still makes more sense (for me at least) for most people faced with judgment for their actions to realize that the death penalty is easily the better choice. Of course most of them don't actually get to choose but I'm wagering if they could they might prefer it but again that could just be my own bias showing. What I'm really trying to say is that the death penalty just seems more like mercy as opposed to the brutal and cruel punishment some people see it as.

I dont personally buy into reincarnation as to me it is unnecessarily cubbersome with no real reward in the end.

What i meant by redemption in the afterlife is that is a phase of being corrected lets say if the person is good enough. They wont face hell fire if they can be redeemed or fixed. Thats based on whats in their hearts if they are worthy or not. I lean towards judgement day where people will be mostly responsible to each other if they have wronged one another or even animals unnecessarily. I do think some people deserve hell for what they have done in this life as i do think some people are beyond redemption but not the people who took a bad path in life because of some trauma or conditioning beyond their control. I struggle with eternity of hell fire even for the ones that are most vile of people as it is hard concept to wrap the head around but i do have somehow understanding why it could be warranted in extreme cases.

I have somewhat good understanding of my religion. I agree with headlines mostly but not the small nuances and there are so many and i have no problem of operating from a place of compassion first and foremost and reconcile those believes that i have with them. If not then I rather abandon the belief itself. But it is a key to try and understand everything and why it is the way it is

 

[lachancla1]

Life behind bars is worth than death imo. Also, in the small but very possible chance an innocent person is convicted, a life sentence will give them a chance to get out.

I think most of us on this website can agree life can be worse than living. Why give criminals an easy out?

 

[Snake of Eden]

I think most of us on this website can agree life can be worse than living. Why give criminals an easy out?

Thats whats funny and paradoxical at same time . You would think people on a suicide forum will be understanding that death is worse than living in alot of instances yet they cant help but feel it is wrong to take someone's life when they themselves took another person's life. I mean if the issue is autonomy over one's life i understand where they are coming from yet I cant help but feel this is a case of having their cake and eating it

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I dont personally buy into reincarnation as to me it is unnecessarily cubbersome with no real reward in the end.

What i meant by redemption in the afterlife is that is a phase of being corrected lets say if the person is good enough. They wont face hell fire if they can be redeemed or fixed. Thats based on whats in their hearts if they are worthy or not. I lean towards judgement day where people will be mostly responsible to each other if they have wronged one another or even animals unnecessarily. I do think some people deserve hell for what they have done in this life as i do think some people are beyond redemption but not the people who took a bad path in life because of some trauma or conditioning beyond their control. I struggle with eternity of hell fire even for the ones that are most vile of people as it is hard concept to wrap the head around but i do have somehow understanding why it could be warranted in extreme cases.

My opinion is mostly the same, though taken a few steps further in that I truly think no crime no matter what it is or who the victims are actually deserves the traditional hellish depiction of eternal suffering simply because no human is capable of causing that same exact amount of suffering on that scale on their own. At the very least, the afterlife certainly can give people a chance to better themselves and atone far better than the realm of the living can with all its physical limitations. I think even the people beyond redemption should still be given the chance to try even if it takes them an eternity. In my opinion, this infiniteness shouldn't be used to keep the suffering going, rather it would be better used giving each and every individual who committed wrongdoing an infinite amount of tries to better themselves and only releasing them once they've absolutely changed, again even if it takes an eternity.

 

[Crazy4u]

I'm personally against the death penalty for multiple reasons. One of the most important reasons is how corrupt and unfair the legal system is. People who are rich and have expensive lawyers can easily get away with crimes while poor people face excessive consequences. Many people who commit crimes are victims themselves.

Some convictions are also false. The interrogation system is so misleading and harmful that some innocent people confess to crimes they didn't do! the detectives can be so manipulative.

IMO, the death penalty can be given as an option if the subject wants it instead of spending time in prison. They shouldn't be pushed to accept death penalty though.

 

[Wails]

I personally would want the death penalty if I ever commit crimes. But I am conflicted when it comes to others. I feel like the death penalty is naturally coercive and unethical unless the convicted prefers... but yea I'm conflicted

 

[avoid_slow_death]

This site is many things other than a pro choice forum. Discussions are open and off topic stuff does not have to reflect a certain value system. My mind is boggled by many people who think so many things are beyond discussion and re-examining. I dont think it is moot either. Just like the world can go forward on issues it can also go backward. We dont have some universal guarantee that things will just keep on progressing indefinitely towards a specific outlook. The world goes cyclical as much as it goes linear

Actually, I read a metaphor somewhere that makes a ton of sense.

History is like a pendulum. It swings all the way to one side from momentum. One it reaches the extreme end, it begins to swing back in the other direction building momentum as it goes. It's been that way since the dawn of human civilization and will continue as such until the end.

 

[demuic]

I'll copy what I said on another thread.

The biggest problem with death penalty is the possibility for someone to be executed for a crime they did not commit, due to bad evidence, biases/prejudices, being framed or set up, etc. And there is the concern to be made of allowing governments as corrupt as they tend to be the legal power to execute people as need be. Though, being able to imprison people for life could be considered a concern for a similar reason. Political dissidents and the like get executed a lot in the authoritarian nations that exist (like China whose total number of executions is kept a secret.)

I think both can be quite punishing but it makes you think when people choose death rather than going to prison which one is actually "worse." I'm not sure what the answer would be if you asked the majority of people in the world whether they would prefer death or life imprisonment. The quality of the prisons is something to take into account I suppose, like prisoners in some countries have more rights and "luxuries" than in other countries.

The death row in America at least is quite flawed anyway as many people will remain on death row for decades before being executed, or eventually having the death penalty converted to a life sentence instead. And there are logistical problems with the manufacturers of the drugs for lethal injection refusing to supply those drugs anymore to states that still have the death penalty. I think there are some similar problems in other countries.

There is also the matter of the philosophy behind why prisons exists. Whether the purpose is to keep people safe from predators, so they are taken out of society, in whatever way that means (imprisonment or death) or whether it is about punishing the person who committed the crime. I care more so about the first reason and so which punishment is actually more punishing is less relevant in that instance.

I do think people in prison should be given the option of euthanasia. Maybe it is only given after a certain point of time served in their sentence. I don't think it is likely to realistically happen any time soon, though.

-

Philosophically I can understand and agree with the desire for the death penalty for perpetrators of very heinous crimes without any justification, in practice I think the risks that come with it are too great. I think a life sentence is a bad enough punishment.

 

[waitingforrest]

For me at least, their are times I agree with the death penalty. Other times, I feel like rotting the rest of their lives in jail is better. I just hate how they get a peaceful death whereas their victims didn't. One thing I can agree on is them never getting back out to society or leaving jail.

My hot take is that it should be up to the victim's close ones to decide. I see too many times were the sentence wasn't bad enough.

 

[summers]

Life behind bars is worth than death imo. Also, in the small but very possible chance an innocent person is convicted, a life sentence will give them a chance to get out.

I think most of us on this website can agree life can be worse than living. Why give criminals an easy out?

Yeah, this guy's life totally sucks after he killed 77 people, many of them kids and teenagers...

Anders Behring Breivik, Who Killed 77 in Norway, Spends Days Playing Video Games in Jail

My hot take is that it should be up to the victim's close ones to decide. I see too many times were the sentence wasn't bad enough.

I'm 100% for the death penalty. If it costs $50k/yr to jail someone, that's $1million wasted in 20 years that could have helped people with healthcare, education, housing, food, etc...

 

[Spacedoutfailure_]

Most people in prison are bags of shit so why not just let them die? No one cares about them, not even themselves. If I was falsely accused of murder I wouldn't want to wait around for even 10+ years. Once you commit a felony you're life is over and you're on the road to an early death anyways. I think all murder cases should probably be reviewed by boards of people not in the legal system. I think we should have multiple judges in court from different backgrounds on crimes like murder to make sure no innocent person is proven guilty. I definitely don't get the "I want them to suffer the rest of their life in prison" for people like pedos, as they usually kill themselves or get murdered pretty quickly in prison. And murderers usually do have it very nice in prison and they get lots of sex from the guards.

 

[summers]

people like pedos, as they usually kill themselves or get murdered pretty quickly in prison.

In the US, pedos basically become property/currency. They are owned and passed around. They have zero sympathy from me. Unfortunately, there have been cases where people were falsely convicted of this. Because of this, death is a better punishment because as much as killing someone on a false conviction would suck, it's much better than the alternative.

 

[Spacedoutfailure_]

In the US, pedos basically become property/currency. They are owned and passed around. They have zero sympathy from me. Unfortunately, there have been cases where people were falsely convicted of this. Because of this, death is a better punishment because as much as killing someone on a false conviction would suck, it's much better than the alternative.

Never heard of that, I'm pretty sure they either get murdered or suicide most of the time, prison rape isn't really a big thing as people think it is.

 

[Snake of Eden]

Never heard of that, I'm pretty sure they either get murdered or suicide most of the time, prison rape isn't really a big thing as people think it is.

It is always mind boggling to me how many people think of prison as a better and more humane solution to death penalty for the most heinous of criminals. Like have you actually ever been exposed to what goes on in there?

 

[summers]

It is always mind boggling to me how many people think of prison as a better and more humane solution to death penalty for the most heinous of criminals. Like have you actually ever been exposed to what goes on in there?

I know two people personally who are corrections officers. But they are only in jails, not prisons. They told me their friends who work in prisons say it's not all that bad except for child molesters, some rapists, and woman/child killers. They do get 3 meals a day, shelter, and healthcare.

 

[Snake of Eden]

I know two people personally who are corrections officers. But they are only in jails, not prisons. They told me their friends who work in prisons say it's not all that bad except for child molesters, some rapists, and woman/child killers. They do get 3 meals a day, shelter, and healthcare.

I didnt even know there is a difference between jail vs prison. But i knew heinous innmates are separated from the rest. What i said still applies in that case

 

[Spacedoutfailure_]

It is always mind boggling to me how many people think of prison as a better and more humane solution to death penalty for the most heinous of criminals. Like have you actually ever been exposed to what goes on in there?

No I haven't been exposed to it, I've watched some cool YouTubers talk about prison life like big herc, and some others. It honestly sounds like high school pretty much just more deadly.

 

[summers]

I didnt even know there is a difference between jail vs prison. But i knew heinous innmates are separated from the rest. What i said still applies in that case

Jail is where you get held until trial in most cases. Prison is where your sent after you're convicted and sentenced.

 

[Snake of Eden]

No I haven't been exposed to it, I've watched some cool YouTubers talk about prison life like big herc, and some others. It honestly sounds like high school pretty much just more deadly.

Sorry by exposed I mean like read or watch about it because its very obvious it is not that humane or better than dying in alot of ways. Thats for heinous inmates of course

 

[narval]

Now i just remembered why i don't like enter to discussions/debates in english sites XD

Reading, translating as i can and then undertand the points... I don't have the energy RN

 

[GentleJerk]

I would usually not condone any sort of death penalty as a punishment for murder or to act as a deterrent, as it does not change what has happened, it does not bring the victims back, and it often does not deter others from committing murders. But I'm just one person, who's opinion is not involved with governing a society and keeping order and peace. Justice and revenge does sound good, and these systems are usually in place out of some type of necessity.

...I will say If lives are going to be saved by killing a person, then I think it is permissible if there are no other good options. But it can be hard to tell if that's the case and if killing is to be justifiable, whoever is the executioner will need to have the intention of mercifully saving lives rather than punishment.

That's the moral side of it. Here's my take on a spiritual side of it, not that it should factor in to crime and punishment. If karma or heaven/hell is believed and considered, then saving innocent lives from being taken, while saving the murderer from accumulating even more negative karma for themself is the way to go.

The executioner would need to have a very high degree of certainty and such infinite compassion that he/she is willing to take on the heavy negative karma of killing someone, in order to save other innocent lives and also the murderer too from the negative repercussions of his own potential wrongdoing.

 

[YourNeighbor]

However, let's move past this "vengeance" reasoning, It's highly subjective, and it could also be said that keeping a prisoner in a cell for life is a much harsher form of torture. So let's not delve into that side of this discussion, it's very shallow at the very least.

Criminal justice has 3 legitimate purposes. Rehabilitation, deterrence, and retribution/vengeance. The last one is providing victims and society some satisfaction that a wrongdoer is being punished. There is nothing wrong with retribution being one goal of criminal justice--without it, we'd see vigilatism.

With the death penalty, rehabilitation is off the table, and we know there is no noticeable deterrent. A murderer is not going to consider the possibility of capital punishment vs. life without parole and decide to kill based on that factor.

That only leaves retribution/vengeance as a justification for the death penalty.

So again, because with the death penalty puts innocent people to death, because we know capital convictions can be mistaken, because the death penalty is more expensive than life in prison, because it is unfairly applied (poor people and people of color are much more likely to get it, controlling for the same conviction), there is *not one* good policy reason to keep it. Desire for vengeance cannot outweigh the costs.

 

[Snake of Eden]

So again, because with the death penalty puts innocent people to death, because we know capital convictions can be mistaken, because the death penalty is more expensive than life in prison, because it is unfairly applied (poor people and people of color are much more likely to get it, controlling for the same conviction), there is *not one* good policy reason to keep it. Desire for vengeance cannot outweigh the costs.

We went through some of the points earlier. I think the cost aspect is highly relative but I wont go into that deeper. I am satisfied with the resolve that death penalty is neither barbaric nor counterintuitive or counterproductive to society's priorities that is in a more realistic setting where the prison system arent any longer sustainable for lifelong sentences

 

[YourNeighbor]

Looks like black people get executed less than white people, when you take the murder rate into account. 4,800 (W) vs 6,500 (B) homicides in 2019. The issue isn't that black people are being executed more for murders, it's that the murder rate itself is higher (poverty, history, etc).

Not true. Please educate yourself, the data are easy to find. Poor people and people of color are much more likely to receive the death penalty in the U.S. *even controlling for conviction.* Studies abound.

Expanded Homicide Data Table 3

ucr.fbi.gov

If you're starting with conviction rates to make your point (which again is incorrect, as controlling for convictions people of color are more likely to be sentenced to death), you're already baking in problems to your data. Persons of color are more likely to be charged with crimes and convicted at trial, even controlling for underlying offenses.

I personally dislike dividing people into "races" and this way of talking about it, though.

The system divides people into races, by disproportionately sentencing people of color to death. We should all dislike that fact, but ignoring it will not help change anything.

 

[9BBN]

An eye for an eye doesn't work if the criminal doesn't mind blindness as much as the victim. Justice like that would be too simplistic. We know murder suicides exist, so we know the death penalty wouldn't deter these kinds of people.

It's a pro-life bias to think that death is an ultimate punishment.