Damaged By Military Service?

[Ligottian]

I've never "served", thank Fate. I'm wondering if anyone here was mentally damaged by being in the military. And I'm not talking about just combat.

 

[MementoMori81]

Yes, most definitely. Surprisingly a lot of the lads I served with (British Army 1999-2008) say they found the dehumanising effect of training to be the thing that has left the most traumatic mark on them. Deployments are gash, but the training (initial and ongoing) sticks even harder in my opinion.

When you're in basic (and phase 2, of course), a large portion of that training is aimed at getting you to obey orders, immediately, without question, always, and also what's known as "removing the barrier to kill."
I won't go into the science (post WWII) that played a part in shaping the training of a modern soldier, but studies showed that only a small percentage of soldiers were shooting to kill - historically. So military leaders, scientists/psychologists were employed to find ways to push that percentage up.
I'll give some examples of things that get used in training to remove the barrier to kill, some may sound familiar;

"Aim for the centre of mass"
Not "shoot the bloke, kill the bloke, etc etc
Reducing your victim to that is a technique used in removing the barrier to kill.
How about this for another;

"Targets will fall when hit"

Just two examples. By drilling this into recruits over and over and over, you are producing a certain effect, a desired one.

Other little choice tactics of the DS in training was to shout "corridor" - that meant you all dropped whatever you were doing and got into the corridor, backs to the wall, stood to attention (until told otherwise) - this was usually for briefings or so on. If someone answered back, even just a simple acknowledgment that they were on their way, or anything really, you'd get told to assume one of two positions; arms up (like a surrender gesture) or "chins out", at which point the DS (usually a Corporal) would walk down the line and either punch you in the side of the face, or punch you in the gut - and not half arsedly either. I'm not exaggerating, and some of those little s***TS clearly enjoyed it. I eventually worked up the ranks a little, and I am sickened to say I was no better.

Here's some other things. In training we were taught that our first loyalty was to our unit, that all other units were inferior to ours, and to hate them, but above all we were told to hate civilians. As Ben Griffin rightly said in a video; "we used to call them civvie c**ts" (pardon the language). People who didn't have the guts to serve (or so we were drilled to feel) or who couldn't get in because of medical reasons etc.

Now, think about it, if you can get your blokes to hate their own civilian population, imagine what you can get them to do to the civilians of someone else's country?
Then there is the fact that the manner in which you're returned to civilian life isn't as phased and calculated as your uploading to the forces. To my mind, apart from the resettlement courses and what-not, it's a pretty cut and shut thing.

I served on deployments, and now I totally, totally regret it. It's shaped me for the worse (maybe less so now, but badly at first). I joined an organisation which speaks out about this sort of stuff after I left, and I'll not even lie and say I got out of the armed forces on good terms - I didn't and what's more I don't care that I did.
I wish I'd never joined.

Again, an emphatic yes, joining the forces played a part in screwing up who or what I am. It's not the only thing or the biggest factor that's made my mind work the way it goes these days, but it's definitely a contributing factor. There isn't anything brave or noble about invading someone else's country and so on, and I'll have to square myself away with that for the rest of my life, however long or short it may be.

 

[Ligottian]

Thank you very much for the reply. I think it's the same the world over. Breaking the civilian down and then rebuilding him as a brainwashed robot to do whatever he is told.

 

[MementoMori81]

Thank you very much for the reply. I think it's the same the world over. Breaking the civilian down and then rebuilding him as a brainwashed robot to do whatever he is told.

That's exactly right, you've hit the nail on the head. Wherever you go, you'll find the same methods, or derivatives of, being used to crank out an obedient chess piece to be used in the leadership's game of 'real life battle chess'.
I can't remember who said it to me, but someone once said to me that if every soldier just said "no" and no one else joined up, what would those who push for conflict do?
I could go into the whole "militarisation of youth" aspect, which ensures the armed forces continue to receive a fresh supply of pawns, sorry, recruits; such as Armed Forces Days/Fares in Schools (designed to capture the imagination of youngsters early on), Combined Cadet Forces, glamourising service and/or combat, and a whole range of other things, but it might be beyond the scope of this thread. Plus, my soap box is in the shed haha.

Edit: I've got more in common with a bricklayer in Iraq, a carpenter in Afghanistan, a factory worker in Moscow, barista in New York and so on, than I have with the landed gentry in the city of London

 

[Fakereality]

Yes, most definitely. Surprisingly a lot of the lads I served with (British Army 1999-2008) say they found the dehumanising effect of training to be the thing that has left the most traumatic mark on them. Deployments are gash, but the training (initial and ongoing) sticks even harder in my opinion.

When you're in basic (and phase 2, of course), a large portion of that training is aimed at getting you to obey orders, immediately, without question, always, and also what's known as "removing the barrier to kill."
I won't go into the science (post WWII) that played a part in shaping the training of a modern soldier, but studies showed that only a small percentage of soldiers were shooting to kill - historically. So military leaders, scientists/psychologists were employed to find ways to push that percentage up.
I'll give some examples of things that get used in training to remove the barrier to kill, some may sound familiar;

"Aim for the centre of mass"
Not "shoot the bloke, kill the bloke, etc etc
Reducing your victim to that is a technique used in removing the barrier to kill.
How about this for another;

"Targets will fall when hit"

Just two examples. By drilling this into recruits over and over and over, you are producing a certain effect, a desired one.

Other little choice tactics of the DS in training was to shout "corridor" - that meant you all dropped whatever you were doing and got into the corridor, backs to the wall, stood to attention (until told otherwise) - this was usually for briefings or so on. If someone answered back, even just a simple acknowledgment that they were on their way, or anything really, you'd get told to assume one of two positions; arms up (like a surrender gesture) or "chins out", at which point the DS (usually a Corporal) would walk down the line and either punch you in the side of the face, or punch you in the gut - and not half arsedly either. I'm not exaggerating, and some of those little s***TS clearly enjoyed it. I eventually worked up the ranks a little, and I am sickened to say I was no better.

Here's some other things. In training we were taught that our first loyalty was to our unit, that all other units were inferior to ours, and to hate them, but above all we were told to hate civilians. As Ben Griffin rightly said in a video; "we used to call them civvie c**ts" (pardon the language). People who didn't have the guts to serve (or so we were drilled to feel) or who couldn't get in because of medical reasons etc.

Now, think about it, if you can get your blokes to hate their own civilian population, imagine what you can get them to do to the civilians of someone else's country?
Then there is the fact that the manner in which you're returned to civilian life isn't as phased and calculated as your uploading to the forces. To my mind, apart from the resettlement courses and what-not, it's a pretty cut and shut thing.

I served on deployments, and now I totally, totally regret it. It's shaped me for the worse (maybe less so now, but badly at first). I joined an organisation which speaks out about this sort of stuff after I left, and I'll not even lie and say I got out of the armed forces on good terms - I didn't and what's more I don't care that I did.
I wish I'd never joined.

Again, an emphatic yes, joining the forces played a part in screwing up who or what I am. It's not the only thing or the biggest factor that's made my mind work the way it goes these days, but it's definitely a contributing factor. There isn't anything brave or noble about invading someone else's country and so on, and I'll have to square myself away with that for the rest of my life, however long or short it may be.

I once watch a dark comedy show in which British generals were discussing strategy during World War 2 the brightest idea was sending soldiers all in a big charge through trenches going through the same route British used during World War 1 though failed "but this time surely we will succeed!" it was quite funny but on another level quite true too and probably happened in irl too though today's wars are more about laying whole countries and trillion ton bullets, missiles and architecture to waste rather than soldiers.

 

[MementoMori81]

I once watch a dark comedy show in which British generals were discussing strategy during World War 2 the brightest idea was sending soldiers all in a big charge through trenches going through the same route British used during World War 1 though failed "but this time surely we will succeed!" it was quite funny but on another level quite true too and probably happened in irl too though today's wars are more about laying whole countries and trillion ton bullets, missiles and architecture to waste rather than soldiers.

Haha it just wouldn't surprise me at all if that sort of thing occurred, and probably quite a lot more regularly than many would like to imagine. Black Adder Goes Forth was always good for dark military humour related to WW I. Sad ending, though.

You're right, the weapons people have at their fingertips now are frightening. Drones are coming on in leaps and bounds, but it's still the spectre of nuclear weapons that bothers me. I know if some madman decided to use one, it would likely mean mutually assured destruction for all of us, and therefore nothing I can do about it, but it just seems so ridiculous to put so much life-denying power in the hands of "whoever."

And people say us lot surely can't be thinking straight because we consider self deliverance?

 

[indigomoon]

I definitely think the military can damage you. My son had a friend who served in Afghanistan and transitioned back here to the States. He had PTSD so bad that he ended up committing suicide. Was awful actually. No one apparently saw it coming. Went to his car off base and shot himself.

 

[MementoMori81]

I definitely think the military can damage you. My son had a friend who served in Afghanistan and transitioned back here to the States. He had PTSD so bad that he ended up committing suicide. Was awful actually. No one apparently saw it coming. Went to his car off base and shot himself.

So, so sad to hear. Honestly, I believe being in the forces is like a life sentence for a criminal - when they say it's life, they mean it, that's exactly what they take away from you.
Whenever friends or, just anyone really, ask me what Iraq and Afghanistan were like, I reply, bluntly;
"humans from one strip of land with a painted cloth on a pole and arbitrary name attached to it, killing other humans from a different patch of land with an equally arbitrary name and painted cloth on a pole attached to it because the boss said so."

I look at how technologically advanced we are as a species, and yet we can't even get our heads around things to stop wiping each other out on the say so of a bunch of rich old men. Disappointing to say the least.

Really sorry once again about your son's friend. I wish things could have been different for him, I wouldn't wish PTSD on anyone.

 

[SuicidallyCurious]

If they volunteered for it in the United States then they deserve it. You don't get to go fight an oil war and claim you're the victim - you're a murderer who slaughtered for oil.

As of now it's a 100 percent all volunteer military - no whining about I was drafted etc

If they wanted to be a hero they should have either been working at home to boost the oil supply or fighting politically for more reasonable consumption patterns to reduce oil demand. Any ex military who own low MPG pickup trucks without a valid blue collar or work use deserve to die

 

[myopybyproxy]

Any ex military who own low MPG pickup trucks without a valid blue collar or work use deserve to die

Harsh

 

[GentleJerk]

If they volunteered for it in the United States then they deserve it. You don't get to go fight an oil war and claim you're the victim - you're a murderer who slaughtered for oil.

Many are brainwashed and lied to, made to believe they are heroically fighting for the freedom of their country or others, vanquishing evil or what not. The 'defence' forces are glamorized.

The first step of war is making people want to fight one.

Not as many people would join the military if they were shown the truth.