Convulsions/spasms

[Hoopali]

There are a few posts on here that mention worry regarding "convulsions" or "spasms", especially with methods such as hanging, exit bag, CO and now the re/debreather. In fact any method which results in a lack of oxygen will potentially give rise to convulsions, which makes sense.

People seem to worry a lot about these due to concern that the equipment they are using will come loose.

With regard to this, I found a video that shows someone going through gradual hypoxia in testing. He passes out around 3:10 and they then attach the oxygen but I don't think they attach it properly as he starts having spasms/convulsions around 3:38.

The way I see these (personal view - NOT based on a scientific/medical background) is almost a stretching out of arms and legs similar to when you yawn and tense your arm and leg muscles, which makes a lot of sense when you think about it. Your body is trying to tell you to breathe in the same way as when you yawn. It stimulates muscles to try to increase heart rate and blood flow.

(Note - I appreciate this is early stages so they may have continued to be worse after that)

Anyway - here's the video.




So it may be worth whilst testing your method to just have a really good stretch and yawn. One of those where if you're laying down you arch your back and stretch your arms out in front (unlikely to go over your head). Lift your bum off the ground and tense your arm and leg muscles, move your neck etc.

I think people hear the words spasm, or convulsion in particular and associate this with fits and seizures.

Does anyone else have any view on this, any other videos of similar thing (preferably not death videos please, or if the person does die please put a warning on as I don't really like watching those) or any anecdotal evidence?

 

[Walilamdzi]

I'm not sure, interesting...

 

[enjolras]

Thanks for the video. Fuck, it disturbed me. I'm not ready to admit that this is correct to what I know. I had written an argument to discuss it since he is given oxygen and opens eyelids but I'm backing off. The sequence is just a tad messier to my assumption but coherent. I just don't want to be convinced.
It doesn't look so much different than my parent's partial seizures honestly, if only more propagated / global.

I imagine the bulky ReBreather attached to the belly when his head is falling frontward and rotating with the mask and tubing on.
I'm not super pleased that the second part is representative, with the coordinated ampitude of both lower back, leg, neck, head altogether.
I figured out unwanted movements could last a couple minutes, spanning more than half of the unconsciousness phase so if there's a level of magnitude to fear, messing halfway with equipment, I dislike the thought.
I'm growing recognition of the classic exit bag for flexibility.

 

[Hoopali]

Thanks for the video. Fuck, it disturbed me. I'm not ready to admit that this is correct to what I know. I had written an argument to discuss it since he is given oxygen and opens eyelids but I'm backing off. The sequence is just a tad messier to my assumption but coherent. I just don't want to be convinced.
It doesn't look so much different than my parent's partial seizures honestly, if only more propagated / global.

I imagine the bulky ReBreather attached to the belly when his head is falling frontward and rotating with the mask and tubing on.
I'm not super pleased that the second part is representative, with the coordinated ampitude of both lower back, leg, neck, head altogether.
I figured out unwanted movements could last a couple minutes, spanning more than half of the unconsciousness phase so if there's a level of magnitude to fear, messing halfway with equipment, I dislike the thought.
I'm growing recognition of the classic exit bag for flexibility.

My view is that aesthetically it's not nice to see as it looks uncomfortable but ultimately at that point (my belief is) you're unconscious. I move a lot in my sleep but I don't remember or feel it so I'm not too concerned by the possibility of it being uncomfortable as I'd be out by that time. The same with the gasping thing. Your body is gasping because you're unconscious. If you weren't then you would have removed bag/equipment by that time anyway.

However, I do completely appreciate the argument regarding moving/dislodging equipment whilst going through those movements. Like you, I understood the debreather to be a little less bulky than it seems to be, and the whole face seal thing is concerning, though I would like to see and test the straps.

I also agree with you that the EB seems easier, though obviously a pain to source the equipment and set up. I didn't find the actual event too bad during testing. Again however there is always the chance something may come loose it has to be said.

I'm starting to think that really the only way that doesn't need to take the equipment into account and provides that peaceful "go to sleep" hypoxic state seems to be CO in a car/small room. It's also stupidly cheap and easy to source the items.

 

[Isittimetogonola]

Early stages of hypoxia can cause the posturing. Most, including myself, recover since oxygenation is restored fairly quickly when practicing. In a failed attempt, it can progress to brain damage.

Abnormal posturing - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

@Hoopali, someone mentioned today in the debreather thread an idea to seal the mask with denture cream so it will grip.

 

[enjolras]

Another such "convulsion/spasm". To my taste, even more impressive !




My interrogation arises. How long is it susceptible to continue if the oxygen is not restored ? Does it calm down or amplifies, or persists chaotically ?