Discussion Convincing others of your rationality:

[MeltingHeart]

So- I am in my late 30s, I have no physical ailments as such- I had a huge breakdown a year ago- since then I have become what I would call very emotionally distressed & disturbed. My reasons for wanting to ctb are complex and derive from some issues that precipitated my breakdown and also others that stretch back to my childhood. Despite my state of profound despair, rapidly declining cognitive abilities and emotional distress- I would still consider myself to have the ability to think clearly about some things; such as the fact my life can not ever be what I wished it could be now, to see things in as they are in reality (i.e I am not delusional) and also to think rationally. I have being wanting to ctb everyday for a year- though I never really did before that- but I do not consider it irrational & it has certainly been v.well considered- I've probably written over 100 pages on why. However I want to write ONE more note to someone- This person is CONVINCED that purely on the merit of me wanting to ctb i MUST have a mental illness, this so called mental Illness has infected my brain-clouding my judgement- I am not thinking clearly, even thought I can articulate ALL my thoughts and have felt this way for a year. Does anyone agree and think that if you are not in physical pain-but want to ctb-you must be mentalally ill? If not- how can I convince them or explain to them in a suicide note-that it is not as simple as that?

 

[Daniela]

This conversation may have never happened (to the real people depicted here) but it feels "real" enough
"I can see that it must be hard for a woman of your...... talents... to see that she may not be the best judge of her own condition."
"Who then is a better judge?"

"My life has been stolen from me" i.e. she was forced to move in the countryside where she was watched 24/7. She begs her sister (visiting from London) to take her (Virginia) with her and she doesn't.

 

[MeltingHeart]

This conversation might have never happened but it feels "real" enough
"I can see that it must be hard for a woman of your...... talents... to see that she may not be the best judge of her own condition."
"Who then is a better judge?"

"My life has been stolen from me" i.e. she was forced to move in the countryside where she was watched 24/7. She begs her sister (visiting from London) to take her (Virginia) with her and she doesn't.

I love this! Thank you

This conversation may have never happened (to the real people depicted here) but it feels "real" enough
"I can see that it must be hard for a woman of your...... talents... to see that she may not be the best judge of her own condition."
"Who then is a better judge?"

"My life has been stolen from me" i.e. she was forced to move in the countryside where she was watched 24/7. She begs her sister (visiting from London) to take her (Virginia) with her and she doesn't.

agree that only you yourself truly ever knows how you feel and can or cannot ever make you feel better-no doc, no therapist or psych can ever truly know or understand why you feel the way you do- or there just stick a label on you-the closest one that can find-that they believe equates to your state of mind-even though very often they can be inaccurate and near pointless 'diagnosis' to attribute to someone.

 

[Meant2Die]

In my humble opinion it's just not worth the effort. There are some people who will never get it unless they find themselves in the same situation. Years ago in my circle of friends we went around the room of maybe 10 people and we all said what level of happiness we thought we were currently at. This lead to talk of depression, etc. One guy was adamant about not understanding depression at all, bc he never experienced it. He said he's has sad or dark times but never to the point that he couldn't function or get out of it at some point. He never experienced the soul wrenching, sadness, despair, lack of motivation, lack of energy, emptiness, anhedonia, "bad" thoughts that some do. This is what I mean, if you never experience how bad it can actually be for some of us, you can't relate and if the person isn't good about being empathic they just wont get it.

And I just used depression as an example, but it could also be anything, overwhelming stress from life circumstances, being sexually abused at some point, grief, rejection, not fitting in, loneliness, poverty, so many other things. Those things can bring on the "mental illness" but they don't have to. Some people are just tired of dealing with the shit all their lives and at one point they internally say "I've had enough". Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

 

[LMLN]

I have to say I have learned the hard way that wanting to ctb due to reasons other than physical pain or physical illness does not mean you are mentally ill. In fact I am so sad and regretful the way I talked to my husband before he ctb. Telling him he must be mentally ill if he wanted to ctb. I can only hope he forgives me where he is now.
I feel so bad about that. What pride I had in my ignorance.
Guess what, now I want to ctb and dont consider myself mentally ill. The medical community says that I am. They said my grief over the loss of my husband was not causing the thoughts of ctb. I wanted to ctb because of a chemical imbalance only. What? I never felt this way before this point.
In fact a doctor told me that no matter how terrible our circumstances you should never want to kill yourself. She said that's not a normal reaction and it automatically means medication is needed so you stop thinking that way since that is now mental illness. That no "normal person" thinks that way. I call BS!
They dont understand. And I did not until it happened to me. I dont think you can convince someone like that.

 

[FTL.Wanderer]

This person is CONVINCED that purely on the merit of me wanting to ctb i MUST have a mental illness

This is the a priori platform on which the entire mental health industry exists. In this, the evaluative aspects of psychology and psychiatry are like religions that depend on faith in an unproven assumption which when assumed true can justify forcing others to act the way officials judge to be appropriate. Worse, as with many religions, the most rational counterarguments are futile because the enforcers of what has become official (state) policy both believe their own rhetoric and have already usurped the power of the state to censor, or worse, non-believers.

A quick survey of published literature in psychology, psychiatry, and mental health therapy reveals the irrational but next to unassailable presumptive biases that (1) "rational suicide" is an oxymoron, and (2) suicidal individuals abdicate many of our civil rights because we are "mentally ill."

 

[MeltingHeart]

That last bit makes me so bad! I do appeciate that some people that complete or even think about suicide may not be thinking rationally but it is literally insane (no pun intended) or at atleast very narrow minded- with a huge lack of imagination (not as in creative imagination-but rather that so called human ability to perceive of other situations and feelings that you may not feel or have direct experience of)- to think that ALL the people that commit suicide are being irrational- id say the converse is true-it can be an entirely sane response and/ or assessment of ones 'lot' in life, especially percentage of lived experience so far and how that has been for you- against what could be in the future- you've considered it all carefully and its incredibly sad to even have to admit it to yourself but to say-'you know what my life has been pretty shit- and there is atleast a very high chance it will continue to be so'- or even that it just wont be the one that you had hoped for which = hopelessness.

Bitchy bit here- I think some (not all) people are just better at deluding themselves or dont have that kind of mind that would contemplate suicide- you can see alot of miserable people in soceity- stuck in 9-5s for years on end that they hate-just to get drunk of their heads and escape it all at wknd, people stuck in miserable marriages that they dont leave as they are too scared to be alone, people that have squandered years of their lives-but are stuck in patterns of behaviour and with friends that they might not even relate to that much anymore but becomes to late or they are too old to change- But they dont consider suicide- they just continue on in existence. In this way I would say that suicide could possibly be called a brave act- for whatever reason- we are not now happy in life- but we choose to step out of it rather than exist in a bland or inferior way than what we wanted. I cant help but feel people that express suicide thoughts or do it- calls peoples own lives into stark relief.

 

[Temporarilyabsurd]

Some of my thoughts about the place of 'rational' in our world and why it may be tricky ...
( Sorry if it's a bit waffley , and feel free to ignore it , I'm probably just affirming my own perspective ... )


I have recently settled on a conclusion , ( open to revision ... ) that 'society is split down the middle between
the conservative (cultural conformists , those who define themselves by the dominant propoganda which is usually spun as positive and righteous ) and those who are progressive , ( characterized as deviant and perverted by the dominant "in power " political system. )

( I think it goes really really deep down to evolutionairy behaviour , in the social world across the spectrum from fawning subservience to bullying almost at a genetic level , contrasted with culturally liberating ideas of progress and alleviating suffering ... (the contrast between the 'natural law' of authoritarianism that thinly veils the organically opressive characteristic of 'raw nature' , and the politically progressive 'cultural' world )( artificial and invented and possibley 'rational' ? ) that slowly struggles to use ideas to fight against the tyranny of tradition . )

Why is this relevant ?

Well , I think we end up often talking across this divide using the same words and ideas BUT those words and ideas mean
something different in either camp .

So , to "convince" someone that something is rational , when their entire world view is inside another bubble is immediately
problematic.

We 'feel' the truth of our views and attach the label of 'rational' after the fact ?
( "look at the furrows of worry on my brow , this must be real" ... Bill Hicks. )

( there is a Jonathon Haidt (?) book about the righteous mind , I have only listened to it a bit , but I think it addresses those ideas .)

( I grew up brainwashed as a fundamentalist , so 'belief' 'logic' etc are part of my world view jungle ... as far as making sense of the world , and how I 'transact' with it .)

To conclude ( cough ) ... I have also come to the point of settling for the innately synthetic nature of culture and all associated processes .. and having been a victim of child inculcation ( and who hasn't to some degree ? ) , and seeing no
firm 'rational truth ' within reason , I have opted to potentially jump on the self brainwashing anti suffering , compassion for the self and others bandwagon ... NOT because of it's truth ( the world is dog eat dog it seems ) . but because it seems to offer some 1, personal hope i going easy on myself , and 2 , seems to offer some social mechanism for alleviating suffering .

Not really practicing this yet though , but it is early days .

 

[Reyki6667]

Pointless.
If they segregate, for them, you are unfit /unable to be rational and that for wathever you do.

 

[MeltingHeart]

Pointless.
If they segregate, for them, you are unfit /unable to be rational and that for wathever you do.

How do you mean segregate ?
I'm go

Some of my thoughts about the place of 'rational' in our world and why it may be tricky ...
( Sorry if it's a bit waffley , and feel free to ignore it , I'm probably just affirming my own perspective ... )


I have recently settled on a conclusion , ( open to revision ... ) that 'society is split down the middle between
the conservative (cultural conformists , those who define themselves by the dominant propoganda which is usually spun as positive and righteous ) and those who are progressive , ( characterized as deviant and perverted by the dominant "in power " political system. )

( I think it goes really really deep down to evolutionairy behaviour , in the social world across the spectrum from fawning subservience to bullying almost at a genetic level , contrasted with culturally liberating ideas of progress and alleviating suffering ... (the contrast between the 'natural law' of authoritarianism that thinly veils the organically opressive characteristic of 'raw nature' , and the politically progressive 'cultural' world )( artificial and invented and possibley 'rational' ? ) that slowly struggles to use ideas to fight against the tyranny of tradition . )

Why is this relevant ?

Well , I think we end up often talking across this divide using the same words and ideas BUT those words and ideas mean
something different in either camp .

So , to "convince" someone that something is rational , when their entire world view is inside another bubble is immediately
problematic.

We 'feel' the truth of our views and attach the label of 'rational' after the fact ?
( "look at the furrows of worry on my brow , this must be real" ... Bill Hicks. )

( there is a Jonathon Haidt (?) book about the righteous mind , I have only listened to it a bit , but I think it addresses those ideas .)

( I grew up brainwashed as a fundamentalist , so 'belief' 'logic' etc are part of my world view jungle ... as far as making sense of the world , and how I 'transact' with it .)

To conclude ( cough ) ... I have also come to the point of settling for the innately synthetic nature of culture and all associated processes .. and having been a victim of child inculcation ( and who hasn't to some degree ? ) , and seeing no
firm 'rational truth ' within reason , I have opted to potentially jump on the self brainwashing anti suffering , compassion for the self and others bandwagon ... NOT because of it's truth ( the world is dog eat dog it seems ) . but because it seems to offer some 1, personal hope i going easy on myself , and 2 , seems to offer some social mechanism for alleviating suffering .

Not really practicing this yet though , but it is early days .

I'm gonna have to re- read this a few times it seems beyond by academic/ intellectual capacity/ realm of knowledge to entirely grasp the meaning of! -don't I feel dumb! :/

 

[GreyMonkey]

Depends how you want to define mental illness.

If we go by the idea of physical health versus physical illness. A physically healthy person has vitality, strength and an overall sense of physical wellbeing.
A physically ill person does not have vitality, strength or an overall sense of physical wellbeing.

So for mental health. A mentally healthy person has contentment, happiness, resilience and an overall sense of mental/emotional wellbeing.
A mentally ill person then does not have contentment, happiness, resilience or an overall sense of mental/emotional wellbeing.

The desire to die due to emotional and mental distress - discontent, inability be happy, dissatisfaction with life is therefore a sign of mental illness.

Whether it's diagnosed or not. A healthy person does not want to kill themselves.

I understand the desire to not feel the label of mental illness and the stigma associated with it. Yet at a basic level this is just what it is.

I hate the idea that I have mental illness yet in reality the extreme amount of despair, anxiety and discontent I feel are not signs of health. They are illness.

If we are on this site contemplating ending our lives we are not well. Its pretty simple yet confronting to admit.

Rationality is subjective. It depends on rational to what. Yes if the pain is so overwhelming then it's rational to want to end it, the way in which we approach ending it denotes how 'healthy' it is.

 

[Temporarilyabsurd]

I'm gonna have to re- read this a few times it seems beyond by academic/ intellectual capacity/ realm of knowledge to entirely grasp the meaning of! -don't I feel dumb! :/


dude !

I'm a waffleaholic ....

Like I said ... I'm just affirming my own bias .

( As long windedly as possible . )

 

[MeltingHeart]

This all m

Depends how you want to define mental illness.

If we go by the idea of physical health versus physical illness. A physically healthy person has vitality, strength and an overall sense of physical wellbeing.
A physically ill person does not have vitality, strength or an overall sense of physical wellbeing.

So for mental health. A mentally healthy person has contentment, happiness, resilience and an overall sense of mental/emotional wellbeing.
A mentally ill person then does not have contentment, happiness, resilience or an overall sense of mental/emotional wellbeing.

The desire to die due to emotional and mental distress - discontent, inability be happy, dissatisfaction with life is therefore a sign of mental illness.

Whether it's diagnosed or not. A healthy person does not want to kill themselves.

I understand the desire to not feel the label of mental illness and the stigma associated with it. Yet at a basic level this is just what it is.

I hate the idea that I have mental illness yet in reality the extreme amount of despair, anxiety and discontent I feel are not signs of health. They are illness.

If we are on this site contemplating ending our lives we are not well. Its pretty simple yet confronting to admit.

Rationality is subjective. It depends on rational to what. Yes if the pain is so overwhelming then it's rational to want to end it, the way in which we approach ending it denotes how 'healthy' it is.

This all makes a lot of sense to me in many way- I don't have a problem with the stigma or label per se- if was ever to be 'diagnosed' (I have seen psychiatrist, docs etc - and they have never said that I do have 'anything wrong' with me in that diagnostic sense anyway- I guess what being rather forced upon me by this person I mentioned is that I have always maybe had an 'illness' in me and that is what has caused this not allowing the scope that maybe, just maybe external factors (for me- directly relating to how various people have treated me in my life). And almost suggesting that whatever had happened in my life - this would have occurred anyway- as in I was genetically predisposed to end up feeling this way- it's hard to explain with going into wayyy more detail about certain experinces and that I can not help but feel they want to convince themselves and me of this to alleviate their own ( and someone else's) guilt factor -I am not blaming them- but expressing that you have been incredibly let down & very hurt by people is just admitting a truth in my mind - not as simple as pinning blame. Also the only other problem for me is this idea that as an illness - it can be treated and you can get better- whereas I know the concept of "getting better" can not be applied here- it is not about that. As nothing - meds, therapy etc won't change anything so in that sense I see it not so much as an llness but rather an assessment of my life - and to be quite frank- simply not liking the outcome - of the past, present or so called future. thanku for yr well written response & I certainly can agree with some points.

I'm gonna have to re- read this a few times it seems beyond by academic/ intellectual capacity/ realm of knowledge to entirely grasp the meaning of! -don't I feel dumb! :/


dude !

I'm a waffleaholic ....

Like I said ... I'm just affirming my own bias .

( As long windedly as possible . )

I don't mind waffle- just hate it when I can't grasp ideas and concepts- I just feel stupid- to be honest my cognitive abilities have declined rapidly since feeling suicidal- I have insomnia so plenty time to re- read! :)

 

[FTL.Wanderer]

but it is literally insane (no pun intended) or at atleast very narrow minded- with a huge lack of imagination (not as in creative imagination-but rather that so called human ability to perceive of other situations and feelings that you may not feel or have direct experience of)- to think that ALL the people that commit suicide are being irrational

This should be an obvious statistical inference. And there is an even more fundamental rational problem with psychology and psychiatry as regards their position on suicide. It's starkly obvious and mind-numbing that any adult could miss it--namely that there doesn't appear to be any such thing as an objectively true (moral) worldview. There are prevalent tastes and there are ways of being that improve survival odds. But neither of those is any evidence of "truth" (other than statistical frequencies of tastes and associations between intent/motivation and survival). But much of modern psychology (the aspects that deal with ascribing moral content to thoughts, feelings, intentions and the like) is a pseudo-science. I'm not bashing religion per se, but instead the definitively anti-liberty position that based on some people's values and beliefs, others' personal/private actions should be prohibited. We've replaced traditional religion in the late 20th/early 21st centuries with psychology and are increasingly commingling psychology and government. Worst of all, the majority are so apathetic towards this horror that enough of us aren't acting to repel the threat against personal autonomy.

What's that saying? "We get the government we deserve" ...

Cheers, mate.

 

[kkatt]

So- I am in my late 30s, I have no physical ailments as such- I had a huge breakdown a year ago- since then I have become what I would call very emotionally distressed & disturbed. My reasons for wanting to ctb are complex and derive from some issues that precipitated my breakdown and also others that stretch back to my childhood. Despite my state of profound despair, rapidly declining cognitive abilities and emotional distress- I would still consider myself to have the ability to think clearly about some things; such as the fact my life can not ever be what I wished it could be now, to see things in as they are in reality (i.e I am not delusional) and also to think rationally. I have being wanting to ctb everyday for a year- though I never really did before that- but I do not consider it irrational & it has certainly been v.well considered- I've probably written over 100 pages on why. However I want to write ONE more note to someone- This person is CONVINCED that purely on the merit of me wanting to ctb i MUST have a mental illness, this so called mental Illness has infected my brain-clouding my judgement- I am not thinking clearly, even thought I can articulate ALL my thoughts and have felt this way for a year. Does anyone agree and think that if you are not in physical pain-but want to ctb-you must be mentalally ill? If not- how can I convince them or explain to them in a suicide note-that it is not as simple as that?

I am also sick to death of people saying I'm so ill because I want to die. I have lived a very full life and done so many things that many people never have the opportunity to do in their lifetime.I am not ill. I have decided that's enpough and cannot expect any drastic improvement,so death is not such a terrible option if you can acquire a painless method.

 

[Reyki6667]

How do you mean segregate ?
I'm go

I'm gonna have to re- read this a few times it seems beyond by academic/ intellectual capacity/ realm of knowledge to entirely grasp the meaning of! -don't I feel dumb! :/

Segetegate with people with mental illnesses, for them suicide =you are insane. Period and it is irrevocable for them.