Discussion Cluster Bs on SaSu, how do you feel about the phrase 'narcissistic abuse'?

[illvoid]

I am curious about other people's feelings surrounding phrases like this one. No judgement, just want people's honest opinions as I've seen some varying thoughts on the matter.

 

[WAITING TO DIE]

My Mother was a malignant narcissist, so I use the term to describe past experiences.
Talking about it doesn't bother me as much as it used to because the bitch has been dead for over 10 years now.

 

[hmskms]

i think the gaslighting has done enough damage for me to decide my existence is irrecoverable. the only lesson ive learned is that this world belongs to sociopathic winners and the people who worship them.

 

[D1byRam3n]

As long they not disturbing me so directly to myself I don't care

 

[Anonymoususer1234]

Absolutely hate it. Anyone can be an abuser and there's no meaningful difference between so called "narcissistic abuse" and just plain abuse. As I see it "narcissistic abuse" is a term used largely by armchair psychologists to stigmatize a disorder they either don't understand or severely misunderstand.

It's a buzzword at best.

Not that I particularly blame people who use the term. There's a lot of misinformation about narcissism that exist in our culture. It just frustrates me, is all.

(Sidenote: Heal NPD has some really great videos on narcissism and narcissistic thinking, if that's of any interest to anyone here)

Edit: Not a cluster B. Didn't read the whole title before posting my reply. I will delete this reply if asked. Apologies.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Sorry- I'm not your target member. I feel like I have experienced (suspected) narcissistic abuse. In fact- it's the reason I became suicidal in the first place. I would never outright call them a narcissist or call it narcissistic abuse. I would always use 'suspected' in front of the term- because it is only mine (and others) suspicion. That said- it can have such a devastating effect on people's lives and it does follow specific traits- gaslighting, use of 'flying monkeys', manipulation, victim shifting, aggression, lack of empathy. It doesn't surprise me that people who have been so damaged by such abuse in their lives seek to find out why.

From a personal perspective, their behaviour was so extreme and bizarre. It was a massive relief for me when I found out about narcissism- years later. All their behaviours were there. It was a relief for me because- while I could never prove it- now there was a known term for all this fuckery. For a long time- I thought I had indeed provoked some of their behaviour- I even considered whether I had slept walked to do some of the things they had accused me of!

I just think- from the person who has been so impacted by this behaviour- it will have messed them up and part of the healing is trying to understand why this happened. Were they at fault in any way? Having a label to put on the person that did this can in some ways help. Although- I can understand- to the narcissist, it can't feel all that great. Especially if they feel it is a misdiagnosis.

I guess I have a skewed perspective due to my own experience. In truth- narcissists frighten me. I'm not entirely convinced they feel the same sort of remorse other people do- although, I suppose they feel pain in the form of shame which has got to feel bad. I guess I find it hard to sympathise with narcissists if they have hurt people but I suppose their own pain is great also. Maybe they were raised by a narcissist themselves. It has to come from somewhere. It's not a term I would use outright but it's definitely one I would suggest or allude to. For those of us who have encountered the kinds of games they get up to- I think it's liberating to be able to identify them and protect ourselves.

 

[Fulminare]

It's absolutely brain dead and if I see this term on social media one more time, I will genuinely explode.

 

[Ah.ow]

Absolutely hate it. Anyone can be an abuser and there's no meaningful difference between so called "narcissistic abuse" and just plain abuse. As I see it "narcissistic abuse" is a term used largely by armchair psychologists to stigmatize a disorder they either don't understand or severely misunderstand.

It's a buzzword at best.

Not that I particularly blame people who use the term. There's a lot of misinformation about narcissism that exist in our culture. It just frustrates me, is all.

(Sidenote: Heal NPD has some really great videos on narcissism and narcissistic thinking, if that's of any interest to anyone here)

Edit: Not a cluster B. Didn't read the whole title before posting my reply. I will delete this reply if asked. Apologies.

I was surprised to hear the second to last paragraph after the beginning. I didn't expect citing someone who uses psychiatric things. 'narcissism' seemed to point to a common thing, but maybe after not much things i try to say about it, I get overwhelmed. might you be able to help my confusion?

for example, I wondered If labels might help in the sense that certain people might accept them about themselves and then think the problems are more approachable?

narcissism seemed not like that, rarely someone identifying with that? but maybe related terms that often imply narcissism, like estrangement?

estrangement too is too mild, but I've heard it described with narcissistic parent examples?

 

[sserafim]

How do you know if you're cluster B?

 

[derpyderpins]

How do you know if you're cluster B?

I found this thread interesting so I've been reading a bit about the different "clusters."

It seems like actually diagnosing "this person is cluster B" is rarely going to be straightforward.

I think it's very important with all of this diagnosing/labeling to realize what the potential benefit of the label is. If the diagnosis is so we can say "I'm cluster X so I can't help but behave badly and hurt people," there's no point to it. It seems to me the clusters are helpful for saying "I have a problem with X, so maybe I should self-evaluate if I also have a problem with Y, because both are in the same cluster."

So, for me, just reading the descriptions of cluster A, B, and C, I instinctively think C might fit me the most. Anxiety, fear of rejection, etc., so I'm looking at WebMD here, and the cluster C disorder I check the most boxes for is actually OCD. Now, I don't think for a second that that means I have OCD, but it does suggest to me that I'm susceptible to Cluster C type symptoms.

One aspect of my personality I want to work on is my tendency to get fixated and unable to let something go when I think I'm right. (You've seen this ...). So, the Cluster C designation can give me some hints as to why I'm that way while also giving me other symptoms I may want to look out for:

• Perfectionism
• Single-mindedness
• Insisting on following rules I've set
• Seeking affirmation at any cost

So, maybe to work on my issue with not letting arguments go, I should look out for and try to limit these potential underlying causes. The great thing is that even if I'm full of shit with connecting myself to type C, it can never be a negative to try and work on these traits.

Apparently, Cluster B is particularly difficult because the traits themselves make the sufferer think there is no issue. I'd say if you think you fit one or two cluster B traits it's a good idea to consider that you might unknowingly suffer from others. Couldn't hurt to try and work on them, regardless of having a formal diagnosis.

One thing I like in these articles is the emphasis on understanding people with the clusters. If someone is cluster B, that doesn't mean they are an irredeemable devil, it just means they have some issues like we all do. So, for example, as a cluster C, let's say I share something personal with someone. I'm probably going to put way too much weight on their response, because of my fear of rejection and disapproval. But, if I suspect they're cluster B, maybe they have their own reasons for struggling to give me the type of response I want, and I should try to be extra patient.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

How do you know if you're cluster B?

Easy, you get diagnosed by a professional and then you see someone else to confirm the diagnosis. Cluster B personality disorders are generally characterized by emotional, erratic, and dramatic behaviours. People with those disorders often have issues with moral reasoning, impulse control, and regulating their emotions.

Source - My textbook


Also, on a side note, while I don't have a personality disorder, I do find the terms like "narcissistic abuse" to be ableist. "Narcissistic abuse" doesn't even seem to differ that much from just plain ole' emotional abuse/mental abuse/verbal abuse, so I don't get why people don't just use those terms instead. If I were to start using a term like "depression abuse" people would come after me for it, but it's fine for me to use terms like "narcissistic abuse"? We should be working to stop the stigma surrounding disorders like NDP, not further encouraging it.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

Easy, you get diagnosed by a professional and then you see someone else to confirm the diagnosis. Cluster B personality disorders are generally characterized by emotional, erratic, and dramatic behaviours. People with those disorders often have issues with moral reasoning, impulse control, and regulating their emotions.

Source - My textbook


Also, on a side note, while I don't have a personality disorder, I do find the terms like "narcissistic abuse" to be ableist. "Narcissistic abuse" doesn't even seem to differ that much from just plain ole' emotional abuse/mental abuse/verbal abuse, so I don't get why people don't just use those terms instead. If I were to start using a term like "depression abuse" people would come after me for it, but it's fine for me to use terms like "narcissistic abuse"? We should be working to stop the stigma surrounding disorders like NDP, not further encouraging it.

You need a truly honest mental professional with integrity to accurately make that diagnosis. Needle in a haystack as far as that goes. Or rather hay in a needlestack.

A problem arises because the narcissism conflates two things, both a clinical disorder and personality traits. I know several online support communities have been riven in two over the debate as to the appropriateness of that term.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

A problem arises because the narcissism conflates two things, both a clinical disorder and personality traits. I know several online support communities have been riven in two over the debate as to the appropriateness of that term.

I think a good rule of thumb is that if a term goes on to negatively affect a marginalized demographic (in this case, those with NDP), then we shouldn't bother using it anymore and look for alternatuve terms instead. The term is considered bad because people conflate it with NDP, leading to the stereotype of people with NDP being abusers. We should just replace that term altogether, in my opinion.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

I think a good rule of thumb is that if a term goes on to negatively affect a marginalized demographic (in this case, those with NDP), then we shouldn't bother using it anymore and look for alternatuve terms instead. The term is considered bad because people conflate it with NDP, leading to the stereotype of people with NDP being abusers. We should just replace that term altogether, in my opinion.

There was and continues to be a lot of debate because there are those who were abused by people with bona fide NDP (which of course exists despite the Internet's dilution of that diagnosis) and who felt unfairly silenced by any sort bans of that term. Any mental disorder can be conducive to someone's being a victim and causing harm (depending on countless factors) and if someone had a lot of trouble with someone autistic or with BPD (me having those diagnoses though who knows with the latter as professionals are overy lax with dispensing that label) in their life I wouldn't blame them for saying the other person's autism or BPD really was problematic because I know they can be. Such statements however require a !ot of tact and perspective however which admittedly a lot of people are not capable of or inclined towards, especially when they suffered a lot.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

There was and continues to be a lot of debate because there are those who were abused by people with bona fide NDP (which of course exists despite the Internet's dilution of that diagnosis) and who felt unfairly silenced by any sort bans of that term. Any mental disorder can be conducive to someone's being a victim and causing harm (depending on countless factors) and if someone had a lot of trouble with someone autistic or with BPD (me having those diagnoses though who knows with the latter as professionals are overy lax with dispensing that label) in their life I wouldn't blame them for saying the other person's autism or BPD really was problematic because I know they can be. Such statements however require a !ot of tact and perspective however which admittedly a lot of people are not capable of or inclined towards, especially when they suffered a lot.

I do understand that there are a lot of people who have been hurt by those a part of certain demographics, such as those with NDP, but pushing things that further hurt those a part of that community and keeps them from getting the proper help and support they need will only worsen the problem. I was going to say more but I got interrupt because I'm not home right now. I forgot where I was going with this.

 

[sserafim]

I found this thread interesting so I've been reading a bit about the different "clusters."

It seems like actually diagnosing "this person is cluster B" is rarely going to be straightforward.

I think it's very important with all of this diagnosing/labeling to realize what the potential benefit of the label is. If the diagnosis is so we can say "I'm cluster X so I can't help but behave badly and hurt people," there's no point to it. It seems to me the clusters are helpful for saying "I have a problem with X, so maybe I should self-evaluate if I also have a problem with Y, because both are in the same cluster."

So, for me, just reading the descriptions of cluster A, B, and C, I instinctively think C might fit me the most. Anxiety, fear of rejection, etc., so I'm looking at WebMD here, and the cluster C disorder I check the most boxes for is actually OCD. Now, I don't think for a second that that means I have OCD, but it does suggest to me that I'm susceptible to Cluster C type symptoms.

One aspect of my personality I want to work on is my tendency to get fixated and unable to let something go when I think I'm right. (You've seen this ...). So, the Cluster C designation can give me some hints as to why I'm that way while also giving me other symptoms I may want to look out for:

• Perfectionism
• Single-mindedness
• Insisting on following rules I've set
• Seeking affirmation at any cost

So, maybe to work on my issue with not letting arguments go, I should look out for and try to limit these potential underlying causes. The great thing is that even if I'm full of shit with connecting myself to type C, it can never be a negative to try and work on these traits.

Apparently, Cluster B is particularly difficult because the traits themselves make the sufferer think there is no issue. I'd say if you think you fit one or two cluster B traits it's a good idea to consider that you might unknowingly suffer from others. Couldn't hurt to try and work on them, regardless of having a formal diagnosis.

One thing I like in these articles is the emphasis on understanding people with the clusters. If someone is cluster B, that doesn't mean they are an irredeemable devil, it just means they have some issues like we all do. So, for example, as a cluster C, let's say I share something personal with someone. I'm probably going to put way too much weight on their response, because of my fear of rejection and disapproval. But, if I suspect they're cluster B, maybe they have their own reasons for struggling to give me the type of response I want, and I should try to be extra patient.

Do you suspect that I'm cluster B?

 

[derpyderpins]

Do you suspect that I'm cluster B?

Couldn't say yet. I know you have expressed concerns about several cluster B symptoms. I would need to talk with you more. (And by talk with you I mean more than me talking at you and you picking an emoji reaction for me to interpret.)

If I was assigned with arguing that you are in fact cluster B, I'm sure I could make a strong case by going through all of the symptoms listed on that page and matching them with your behavior on here, which I'll resist doing for now. But, for demonstration, let's look at one aspect and see why that doesn't tell the whole story:

Let's look at (1) constant need for attention, and (2) expectation of favors. Now, if I wanted to argue that you display these traits and are therefore cluster B, I'd point out your posting pattern on here. Actually, just this current interaction is enough. We're now offtopic from what the thread was originally about, talking specifically about you at your request, thus you have a need for attention. You also know from our interactions that I will take your short question seriously and give you a detailed answer. On my end, I know when I see "sserafim quoted you" in a notification that I will have to carefully consider the answer, because I probably won't get much in response from you or a chance to follow up. I know I'm unlikely to get an actual "thank you," or any specific remarks justifying all that effort. One could argue that shows an expectation of favors on your part.

On the other hand, rather than assuming you have a personality disorder, the explanation could be that you're "super shy," and you ask open ended questions because you're genuinely curious and trying to figure yourself out rather than attention seeking, plus it saves you from having to offer incite on other's topics which could leave you feeling exposed; and you may give limited response not because you're unappreciative that someone took their time to answer you, but because you don't know quite what to say.

If I had to put money down, I'd say you aren't afflicted with cluster B disorders, because I think you are more than the labels you cling to, but my previous point stands that the diagnosis ultimately doesn't matter. It's not good to "lack remorse", be "arrogant", or display "black and white thinking", and working on those traits will help with things like "emptiness" and "fear of loneliness." So, if you think you might be cluster B, try to look out for and work on the traits listed, as them being grouped together makes sense outside a formal diagnosis.

To me, you're just you. I'm happy to get what interactions I can.