Discussion Challenging Pro Lifers preaching & What do You think or say?

[purplemoon]

For all the pro-lifers and anyone frustrated with their preaching...

If they really wanted to help, they would have offered real support at the very least...Yet they don't...

It's almost like they're wanting to limit methods to just make themselves feel better momentarily, not because they actually care?!?

My question for those people is...
if you 'care' so much, what are you actually doing about it?

What are you actually doing that makes a real difference for the very people like us who are tired of suffering?

Beyond a bunch of pro-life preaching That doesn't actually help any of us in real life?!

It seems for many (not all) people on here, if they just had real support, real people that are actually there (for free) for them, real safety nets in poverty struggles, and if people actually asked them what they need to possibly feel better, they might not be as suicidal in the first place. Possibly.

Pro lifers need to stop blaming the victim, and
also need to stop this nonsense of 'just get help', etc.

the so-called help out there with counseling, shrinks, rarely works for most people. It's an illusion of 'help' for many.

When I could no longer afford any counseling, my counselor could care less when I didn't have the money.

The counseling didn't even really help, all these people have told me over the years is...

"have you tried deep breathing or meditation? Have you tried journaling?"

Oh yeah, that'll definitely completely turn things around for me...seriously?!?

Ohhh... Umm, SURE... if I just "journal and breathe differently", I will suddenly no longer be in physical pain, or suffer from having almost no family, and my PTSD will just magically disappear if I just "journal and meditate"?

Do we really have to pay money for people to pretend to ''care"???

So that's "getting help"?!?

Counselors and shrinks are a Complete waste of my time my entire life, and I gave them a chance.
They are just human beings that take your money in exchange for asking stupid questions and use idiotic theories that don't even work in REALITY.

I really did try everything they said even though I thought it was an unintelligent approach, I tried all levels of counselors, shrinks, medications, everything. Even when I disagreed internally, years ago I still tried to follow whatever formula they suggested.

Absolutely nothing ever worked. Nothing. None of their little ideas or approaches even put a dent in it. I also have a university degree in Psychology. It's a subjective science that constantly fluctuates and is based merely on opinions.

This only avenue of so-called "help" is NOT helping.

It's a fallacy and an ILLUSION.

also, in many countries, and especially the United States, there are almost NO resources, very few support groups, and the United States government that has the authority, power, and plenty of money, could care less. They COULD do something to help but they DON'T.

Other people on a personal level COULD HELP but they DON'T. Why is that?

Is it all about money? Or If helping a suicidal person is just a downer for you or interrupts your lifestyle, or your lunch plans, should you really be preaching from your easy armchair?

If it weren't for so many heartless people, I certainly wouldn't be as depressed.

What about just doing what's right? Or does that just not exist anymore?

There is greed out of control everywhere. The majority of the population can barely pay their rent. There are no controls in place. Violence is skyrocketing, homelessness, pressures are skyrocketing, and the government people in power do absolutely nothing. Hey, all they know or care about is they're doing just fine, so they don't even think about it.

If I had their job for even one day, regardless of the system in place, I'd be doing everything I can to make the world a better place in any way I could. I would make a real effort.

What's even more terrifying is that more and more, most people have no conscience, most people are increasingly cruel, rude, and disrespectful to each other, and everything is unpredictable. No morals, no manners. When I actually DO encounter a genuine or a kind person, it's like a miracle. I feel like half the population are a bunch of cold hearted narcissists or psychopaths.

It just feels like chaos to me, all I want to do is hide at home directly after work, and hopefully I can still make my rent to even have a home to have peace in...

and to not feel surrounded by darkness and cruelty everywhere around me.

And why wouldn't anyone want to escape that?!?

To liberate themselves?

To free their soul from immense suffering?

Basic safety, food, basic shelter, and a feeling of peace should be minimum human rights for everyone. There are more and more people that are tired of being used or abused, and it's hard to find true friends.

More and more people isolate themselves not because they haven't tried... but because they are tired of trying seeing no help, no caring, nothing tangible in reality.

They have tried, they did try, they may even continue to try, and over and over again, all they see is nothingness. Nobody cares.

People on this board, on this website, at least for the most part, have demonstrated MORE CARING than any pro lifer, with very few exceptions.

In the United States alone, there is more money and funding available, but they choose to use it on almost anything else but helping their own citizens. People preach, just do this or just do that, I have done 'this and that'...I have tried everything already.

People say life is precious...

YET We depressed people are simply told "you're on your own", or "that's your problem", or "just go get counseling", YET almost nobody wants to invest even a molecule of their time to help beyond a mere phrase, etc.

And you wonder why more people are suicidal or depressed?!?

There are many different types of circumstances where people cannot do it all on their own anymore, for whatever reason. Why does the society preach it is 'your responsibility', etc.,

this has NOTHING to do with 'responsibility'...

it has EVERYTHING to do with "I'm suffering and I can't take it anymore".


People are not robots designed to meet your definition of 'responsible' in this hardcore brutal place, they're organic beings with needs and feelings.

The majority of the time, I feel like life is just work slavery, with very little time left over to actually enjoy anything anymore. Even worse, it's very difficult to find trustworthy people to even enjoy life with.

And if you were to tell me that "life is beautiful, or life is precious", well maybe for YOU it is…

For Me...this is like a prison planet with really nice scenery & a bunch of illusions that shatter, horrifying experiences with very few moments of beauty or peace or love or goodness. I know this world is out of balance, but I cannot try to save it anymore without losing part of myself in it.

Life for me is constant stress physically and emotionally.

Life for me is 90% suffering.

Life for me is a collection of traumatic experiences with people I loved and trusted that turned out to be predators and parasites or abusers.

Maybe if I had...what you have... I would feel differently.

Shrinks or counseling certainly cannot replace our basic needs not being met.

I myself have helped many people throughout my lifetime. I've had people tell me I'm one of the nicest people they know, or one of the greatest friends they've ever had, etc. I myself have practiced what I hope for and ask for, YET 99% of people are NEVER there for me in return, not even for small things.

I no longer want to be an opportunity for people to be good or evil, evil is draining me. I can only contain so much damage to my nervous system. I can only contain so much trauma to my soul.

I feel like a Rose, surrounded by evil weeds in a chaotic garden
that's falling apart.

​

I don't have low self-esteem, I have a very high self-esteem and I consider myself highly worthy.

That's why I want to leave this place.

I DESERVE BETTER THAN THIS WORLD.​

Most people are selfish, and when you call on the hand they're playing and preaching, they usually fold and walk away, making EXCUSES not to make the effort to help you.

Most human beings only want a direct reciprocal benefit; they don't actually care.

They don't necessarily value the person, they just value what benefit they can get from you. There are exceptions to this, but then again they are exceptional human beings with amazing souls inside. It's very difficult to find in this world. Very rarely can you find a friendship, much less a relationship, etc. where the other person just values you for who you are, whether they benefit or not.

it's like the time that I saw a homeless man with no legs, rolling himself on a skateboard with bloody hands but had crusted over, a long scraggly beard, and he was emaciated from starving. When I ran over to him, as i saw all of his pain, felt concerned and asked him, Sir may I do anything to help you?

All of the filth and dirt covering his face was cleaned by his tears rolling down his face as he looked shocked, as he was literally trembling he said, and I quote, "you're the first person to speak to me in over a year."... I spent just an hour and a half my time, hearing his story, listening to him, and that he was an Iraq war veteran that lost his legs from a landmine and the bus driver would never let him on because he needed help getting onto the bus, nobody ever helped him, nobody cared.
I told him today someone cares!!
that day I made phone calls to shelters, found a taxi driver that was willing to help lift him in and out of the taxi, and the shelter manager Assured me that they would make sure that he got help getting a showered, fed, etc.
All he needed was someone to care for an hour and a half.

That's all it took. Just a mere 1.5 hours changed a person's life for the better...

Why don't more people do that?

Is it so hard just to be kind??​

For pro lifers that feel 'sad'... Think that's hard?
Try living my life, then you know what sadness is...

Only I can decide what's right for my life, only I know how much more I can take, and I am the only one that has to live my life, under my circumstances, and you don't get to decide for me or my existence whether or not I just can't take it anymore.

ONLY i decide if MY life is worth living anymore...

I'm the ONLY one that has to live it, therefore, I'm the one that gets to DECIDE.​

For all the pro-lifers that preach from their easy chair but never actually help directly:

If a person is in despair, if they are exhausted, if they are at THEIR breaking point... you don't get to define what their breaking point 'should' be... Ask HOW you can help the suicidal person...

don't simply give them the lazy easy brief answer of "why don't you just go get help?"

The REAL question is...

WHY aren't YOU yourself helping?


IF you really 'CARE' so much...

ANSWER ME... Tell me HOW You personally are going to help me or help people suffering in your local area?

I myself volunteered to help domestic violence survivors, especially as I am one myself.

I myself volunteered my personal time and my energy for friends, even strangers, that were depressed and sad.

I myself have given part of my lunch to a starving homeless person randomly and frequently. I even talk to them to give them some of their dignity back.

I myself have helped innocent children have a better life, reported abuse to authorities, and volunteered for agencies that create safe environments for them.

I myself, every single day, no matter how bitter or tired I am, continue to be kind to everyone around me.

So what exactly are YOU DOING today, beyond any preaching, about innocent people suffering?

What are you ACTUALLY doing to make the WORLD a BETTER place?!?


I already know where I'm going to go Again, since I had an NDE years ago, for myself I know I will be in a wonderful place, not in this world.

I'm tired of trying to fight off all of the evil here, I'm exhausted.

I deserve better, WE DESERVE BETTER.

For the world that crushes goodness...
you don't deserve us...

For all of the people that claim or pretend to care but Abandon us in our despair...
you don't deserve us...​

 

[WhiteDespair]

I kinda want to respond when I have more available time

 

[angele]

Sadly I don't think they really care all that much. If they truly cared they would do their research and everything you just talked about would be addressed.

I think they want to feel good about themselves, and making blanket statements like "All lives are worth living" are very easy for them.

This isn't to invalidate your anger or anything, I completely agree with your points.

I just don't have hope that they're listening.

 

[Santiago]

I dislike both sides. Neither of them understand the other their point of view and neither are open to a genuine discussion. The same goes for many political subjects.

 

[angele]

I dislike both sides. Neither of them understand the other their point of view and neither are open to a genuine discussion. The same goes for many political subjects.

"Both sides"? Are you not pro-choice? Why are you here?
Not trying to be rude, just genuinely curious

 

[Santiago]

"Both sides"? Are you not pro-choice? Why are you here?
Not trying to be rude, just genuinely curious

Good question. I am pro-choice (in the context of suicide only) in that sense that I think people should be able to end their life peacefully when they decide to. Then again I think there should also be limits and anyone applying should be evaluated.

I don't see myself as part of this group that just hates on the other side under the name 'pro-choice' and I believe that listening to the 'pro-lifers' is important aswell. I don't see any benefits of making the gap even bigger under the motto 'they don't understand us so they are wrong.'

 

[Empty Smile]

Normal people don't want to help because:

A. They have no time to deal with us and our problems, but expect us to be there for them in their time of need.

B. They want to be good Samaritan's by talking us out of suicide.

C. They've not a clue what to say because they've never experienced what we are going through.

D. Even if they knew what to say, we know how to counter their statement.

Example; Them: "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem".

Us: "How do you know my problem is temporary if I haven't told you what my problem is?

The government won't help because:

A. We are making money for them by paying the doctors and psychiatrics, whom have to pay the taxes to the government.

B. We are just a burden to society so they just sweep us under the carpet and pretend we aren't there.


The biggest reason the government DOESN'T want us to commit suicide;

If we kill ourselves, that's one less person alive to work and pay taxes to help keep them living in million dollar homes, and driving expensive cars....

 

[purplemoon]

Normal people don't want to help because:

A. They have no time to deal with us and our problems, but expect us to be there for them in their time of need.

B. They want to be good Samaritan's by talking us out of suicide.

C. They've not a clue what to say because they've never experienced what we are going through.

D. Even if they knew what to say, we know how to counter their statement.

Example; Them: "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem".

Us: "How do you know my problem is temporary if I haven't told you what my problem is?

The government won't help because:

A. We are making money for them by paying the doctors and psychiatrics, whom have to pay the taxes to the government.

B. We are just a burden to society so they just sweep us under the carpet and pretend we aren't there.


The biggest reason the government DOESN'T want us to commit suicide;

If we kill ourselves, that's one less person alive to work and pay taxes to help keep them living in million dollar homes, and driving expensive cars....

You are correct in all of those points...

My favorite though is...

Example; Them: "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem".

Us: "How do you know my problem is temporary if I haven't told you what my problem is?

Exactly.
And I would further have this conversation with such a person making those assumptions that it's a "temporary" problem:

What if the person has spent so many years, the majority of their life, struggling with the problem(s) And everything they try, whether it's of their own initiative or what others suggested... it always fails to get any better?

What if the person not only has emotional pain, but also physical pain that's literally has impacted them for years, it is 100% permanent, and will only get worse as they get older, and they will become in even more physical pain?

Where do you draw the line or the limit?

Have you lived in such physical pain, on top of having almost no want to count on?

Who are you to decide how much more trauma that I can take?

or How much more he or she can tolerate in life?

Their "theories" may work inside their minds or their brainwashed peers, but I dare to challenge any of them...

have you actually gone through what I've gone through?

You are not me and only I know what I can or cannot tolerate anymore.

Maybe you can tolerate those circumstances but I cannot?

Don't preach to me... LISTEN to me.
Listen To Us.​

That's what I wish more people would try, REALLY try to understand... with their HEART, not just jump to conclusions.

Without merely deciding 'they have mental problems because they have anxiety, or depression' etc. Seriously?! What planet of luxury are they on? Have you looked around outside recently? People are being traumatized in so many ways, on a daily basis. You also cannot just 'forget' your experiences. I think they're the ones that are crazy.

Without interrupting someone, just hear them out.

Without making instant snap judgments that any 5-year-old would make (if A then always B, etc) and actually use intelligent and mature thinking and responses.

Without Only using your own frame of reference to define everything and everyone, try to develop some empathy,

and respect the fact that person from that background, in those particular circumstances, with only so many resources, that they can only do so much...

it's not about what you could do... it's about what they are telling you that they can or cannot do, what they can or cannot tolerate.

Without Telling a depressed person that they should "just tough it out", if it were that easy for that person to "just tough it out"...
they would have already done so.

Depression is a NATURAL REACTION to a Toxic environment, to a lack of resources, to experience(s) that leave them feeling devastated, damaged, or abandoned. How else are they 'supposed' to react?

They've likely been doing their best, trying THEIR best, for a long, long time.

 

[Thereisalwaysachoice]

You don't argue. You don't bother with them. Personally, I just tell them to fuck off. That's is my approach. Not recommendeding it for anyone else. Anyone who wants to commit suicide needs to first get rid of all these people. Friends, family members ,ect. Create distance first, then carry out a plan where they aren't in a position to save you, preach, or interfere with CTB. I'm finding purging everyone is helping me be free of the troubles, dangers and complications you all are having.

 

[lightsoutnow]

adding on, people preach that we can choose to seek help when we're in trouble. but I think that "choice" is conditional and sometimes, an illusion.

i.e. my mental illness has crippled me physically to the point where i am unable to hold down a job.

but i can just go see a therapist and psychologist to get better, right?

but who's going to pay for it? i can't work, and even with clinics offering sliding scale/discount costs, there is still a sum of money needed to afford treatment.

I'm homeless, because i escaped an abusive family environment so i have worry about paying for a roof above my head.

so even if i choose to try and work for a future again, I have exhausted and have no more viable resources.

I know people who have amazing support but I don't have that. I don't have someone in my life who can provide shelter and treatment for X amount of time till i can stand on my feet. i'm not going to burden my debt-ridden friends. no charity is going to help an able-bodied person either.

so what choice can i make?

to continue living but be in constant pain? I'm tired of trying to break out of that.

no thanks.

side-note: no, this illness isn't one of those things where it will just "go away" eventually.

 

[purplemoon]

adding on, people preach that we can choose to seek help when we're in trouble. but I think that "choice" is conditional and sometimes, an illusion.

i.e. my mental illness has crippled me physically to the point where i am unable to hold down a job.

but i can just go see a therapist and psychologist to get better, right?

but who's going to pay for it? i can't work, and even with clinics offering sliding scale/discount costs, there is still a sum of money needed to afford treatment.

I'm homeless, because i escaped an abusive family environment so i have worry about paying for a roof above my head.

so even if i choose to try and work for a future again, I have exhausted and have no more viable resources.

I know people who have amazing support but I don't have that. I don't have someone in my life who can provide shelter and treatment for X amount of time till i can stand on my feet. i'm not going to burden my debt-ridden friends. no charity is going to help a able-bodied person either.

so what choice can i make?

to continue living but be in constant pain?

no thanks.

side-note: no, this illness isn't one of those things where it will just "go away" eventually.

I'm so sorry for your situation, and I wish I could win the lottery to just donate to everyone who is homeless as a priority. Finland government decided homelessness is unacceptable, and they basically have resolved it. Other countries should follow their example.

Enduring even 1 day of being homeless, is too much. It's not right, nobody should ever have to endure that.

If you are in a big city, consider moving to a more rural area possibly by bus? Not sure where you are (and you don't have to say)... but many times people go to a forested area near a river and build their own shelter of sorts, but I know that's not always possible for many with physical or cognitive disabilities.

The wrong type of people are in power, in the higher echelons of government, to not do much about it. I'd like to see them experience what you do for even 1 day.

Tell us what we can do to help ease your suffering?

 

[Stan]

I have personally nothing more to add as everything I would have said has been laid out better above. I just wanted to say that this is the type of conversation that needs to be had more here so I applaud the OP who spent a lot of time and thought putting it together and everyone else putting forward some fantastic opinions. I have read this thread over and over a few times which is an absolute rarity for me.

 

[purplemoon]

I have personally nothing more to add as everything I would have said has been laid out better above. I just wanted to say that this is the type of conversation that needs to be had more here so I applaud the OP who spent a lot of time and thought putting it together and everyone else putting forward some fantastic opinions. I have read this thread over and over a few times which is an absolute rarity for me.

Thank you for the recognition, I just poured out my heart, and hope that it helps somewhere and somehow.
If it helps even 1 person, it's worth the effort...

Hugs to all...

 

[lightsoutnow]

I'm so sorry for your situation, and I wish I could win the lottery to just donate to everyone who is homeless as a priority. Finland government decided homelessness is unacceptable, and they basically have resolved it. Other countries should follow their example.

Enduring even 1 day of being homeless, is too much. It's not right, nobody should ever have to endure that.

If you are in a big city, consider moving to a more rural area possibly by bus? Not sure where you are (and you don't have to say)... but many times people go to a forested area near a river and build their own shelter of sorts, but I know that's not always possible for many with physical or cognitive disabilities.

The wrong type of people are in power, in the higher echelons of government, to not do much about it. I'd like to see them experience what you do for even 1 day.

Tell us what we can do to help ease your suffering?

Honestly, just being understood is comforting. And I felt understanding from your posts, so thank you for sharing your thoughts. :)

So good to hear what finland has done! i'm glad some people have received help that they need.

I live in a place where people pretend homeless people don't exist or are ignorant about it because it's an affluent country.

unfortunately it's not possible to find a rural area either.. I would have attempted to build a self-sustainable lifestyle, like a cob house. it's also illegal to "live off a land" in this country.

I was bitter about my circumstances but I think that i've reached some level of acceptance? it's been long happening in history that people who are not able to receive help just struggle or die.

in the past, many people who can't afford vaccines or live in countries that are too poor to help its people suffer and die from diseases that affluent countries don't.

nowadays, that accessibility to healthcare extends to mental health. and i'm part of the group of people who cant afford help.

the difference is that i have the choice (and even privilege?) to walk out of this life with some form of dignity, i suppose.

 

[MeltingHeart]

What I want to say to them (some not all) is f**k off- it is not me you are protecting but yourself!

I got no help when I was being mentally abused as a child. I got no help when I was neglected, not when I had an eating disorder for years, self harmed, was homeless, struggling finanicially, suffering from panic attacks, had severe insomnia, had no one to turn to, no where to go, no safety net, no one had the time to listen- now that I've had enough & want out of this life- people step in to "help" - whilst also projecting huge amounts of anger & disgust onto me/ or totally ignoring me (unless it's to stop me doing something to myself) as well as leaping to label me with any 'mental illness' they think can fit the bill now that I want out of life! Well news flash!: It's too damn late now. Thanks for nothing!- I just want to say - back off & leave me alone- like you always did before!!!

 

[purplemoon]

Honestly, just being understood is comforting. And I felt understanding from your posts, so thank you for sharing your thoughts. :)

So good to hear what finland has done! i'm glad some people have received help that they need.

I live in a place where people pretend homeless people don't exist or are ignorant about it because it's an affluent country.

unfortunately it's not possible to find a rural area either.. I would have attempted to build a self-sustainable lifestyle, like a cob house. it's also illegal to "live off a land" in this country.

I was bitter about my circumstances but I think that i've reached some level of acceptance? it's been long happening in history that people who are not able to receive help just struggle or die.

in the past, many people who can't afford vaccines or live in countries that are too poor to help its people suffer and die from diseases that affluent countries don't.

nowadays, that accessibility to healthcare extends to mental health. and i'm part of the group of people who cant afford help.

the difference is that i have the choice (and even privilege?) to walk out of this life with some form of dignity, i suppose.

That's incredibly brave of you.

For you I would say this...


Those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind...

in this world they have money and material things, but in the afterlife their tiny black dot of a spirit will have just the opposite.

You will have the opposite of what you have here... you will have joy, safety, and peace

One day you will only have goodness and love around you, and we shall be friends in heaven.

Don't let the cold world change who you are,
and this physical realm is not who you are on the inside...

 

[MeltingHeart]

You are correct in all of those points...

My favorite though is...

Example; Them: "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem".

Us: "How do you know my problem is temporary if I haven't told you what my problem is?

Exactly.
And I would further have this conversation with such a person making those assumptions that it's a "temporary" problem:

What if the person has spent so many years, the majority of their life, struggling with the problem(s) And everything they try, whether it's of their own initiative or what others suggested... it always fails to get any better?

What if the person not only has emotional pain, but also physical pain that's literally has impacted them for years, it is 100% permanent, and will only get worse as they get older, and they will become in even more physical pain?

Where do you draw the line or the limit?

Have you lived in such physical pain, on top of having almost no want to count on?

Who are you to decide how much more trauma that I can take?

or How much more he or she can tolerate in life?

Their "theories" may work inside their minds or their brainwashed peers, but I dare to challenge any of them...

have you actually gone through what I've gone through?

You are not me and only I know what I can or cannot tolerate anymore.

Maybe you can tolerate those circumstances but I cannot?

Don't preach to me... LISTEN to me.
Listen To Us.​

That's what I wish more people would try, REALLY try to understand... with their HEART, not just jump to conclusions.

Without merely deciding 'they have mental problems because they have anxiety, or depression' etc. Seriously?! What planet of luxury are they on? Have you looked around outside recently? People are being traumatized in so many ways, on a daily basis. You also cannot just 'forget' your experiences. I think they're the ones that are crazy.

Without interrupting someone, just hear them out.

Without making instant snap judgments that any 5-year-old would make (if A then always B, etc) and actually use intelligent and mature thinking and responses.

Without Only using your own frame of reference to define everything and everyone, try to develop some empathy,

and respect the fact that person from that background, in those particular circumstances, with only so many resources, that they can only do so much...

it's not about what you could do... it's about what they are telling you that they can or cannot do, what they can or cannot tolerate.

Without Telling a depressed person that they should "just tough it out", if it were that easy for that person to "just tough it out"...
they would have already done so.

Depression is a NATURAL REACTION to a Toxic environment, to a lack of resources, to experience(s) that leave them feeling devastated, damaged, or abandoned. How else are they 'supposed' to react?

They've likely been doing their best, trying THEIR best, for a long, long time.

Big yes!!! We reached breaking point for trying so so hard for so long- working hard in soul-destroying low pay jobs for years on end, battling their problems year after year, all the while trying to be damn positive in the face of adversity- to protect others from any "negativity" (as we all now how much people "can't deal with that"- but now we are broken beyond repair- are deemed lazy (for not 'wanting' to get better, irrational (or mentally ill) for feeling this way & of course selfish- when so often it's the least selfish people that get so destroyed by others - precisely because they didn't protect or just look out for themselves in the first place!

 

[Stan]

What I will say is that what @Santiago said really needs to be analysed. If any problem of a size like this gets resolved, dialogue is needed. Being entrenched in an opinion and not listening to the other side is the state of play, then no solution can be agreed. It is down to us to educate them, and we have to adopt to a degree their language and lexicon to get the message across. Being militant is probably understandable as it is personal to us, but its not the way to be successful over such an ethical subject matter. Anger won't get us over the line, educating the other side will be. For me the solutions go across the spectrum of medicine to society as a whole.

 

[SawItOnce]

You don't argue. You don't bother with them. Personally, I just tell them to fuck off. That's is my approach. Not recommendeding it for anyone else. Anyone who wants to commit suicide needs to first get rid of all these people. Friends, family members ,ect. Create distance first, then carry out a plan where they aren't in a position to save you, preach, or interfere with CTB. I'm finding purging everyone is helping me be free of the troubles, dangers and complications you all are having.

Same here... And I wish everybody had the possibility to do this. Some people are really in positions where they can't influence the distance between them and the unsupportive people.

 

[Empty Smile]

I have personally nothing more to add as everything I would have said has been laid out better above. I just wanted to say that this is the type of conversation that needs to be had more here so I applaud the OP who spent a lot of time and thought putting it together and everyone else putting forward some fantastic opinions. I have read this thread over and over a few times which is an absolute rarity for me.

Were you, by chance, eating popcorn as you read this thread over and over?

 

[MeltingHeart]

The catch I feel is the other side (only from personal experience) would no way even be willing to enter info a dialogue about it- the stock answer is: 'its wrong' and 'it's very selfish', and of course 'it's irrational', 'your not thinking in your right mind'- if I would try and have any kind of reasoned arguement/ rational conversation about it- I would be shut down- they would rather cover their ears- whilst going "la la la life is a gift-your wrong- your not being rational- your mentally ill-everyone can come out of this- no one that is physically well should EVER want to take their own life" ...how do you even start to have a open discussion when encountering that- it's literally impossible.

 

[Stan]

I think about the upcoming surge of NEET suicides all the time. I imagine this doesn't help.

I consider that to be a 'society' problem.. We are all here for different reasons why I think it is hard for the pro-lifers to comprehend. But I still think the root causes are the best way to tackle the problem.

 

[lightsoutnow]

What I will say is that what @Santiago said really needs to be analysed. If any problem of a size like this gets resolved, dialogue is needed. Being entrenched in an opinion and not listening to the other side is the state of play, then no solution can be agreed. It is down to us to educate them, and we have to adopt to a degree their language and lexicon to get the message across. Being militant is probably understandable as it is personal to us, but its not the way to be successful over such an ethical subject matter. Anger won't get us over the line, educating the other side will be. For me the solutions go across the spectrum of medicine to society as a whole.

agreed. I understand that it's a difficult and challenging conversation because it's a painful subject for anyone, and no one wants to be in pain.

people stop others from suicide because their loss and grief is extremely painful. people commit suicide because their lives are extremely painful.

plus, i think that humans generally react to something that they don't understand with fear and trepidation. not curiosity and an attitude to seek understanding and comprehension. it will be hard work for both sides to attempt to reach some form of understanding..

 

[SawItOnce]

I think the op can and will be heard by at least several "pro-lifers", and this is a big thing. Many people just go with the flow (social conditioning is just too strong), and perpetuate beliefs, repeat phrases, but without feeling them deep enough.

Many normal people are intelligent and inquisitive, but simply victims of inertion (which is so understandable, we too are victims of inertions, of inertions of other circumstances than theirs), and they are vulnerable to cries like this. They may feel resistance to being challenged, but they will feel insecure in repeating some things further, they will feel to some extent exposed in their thoughtless following of mainstream which maybe never felt of substance to them.

Some people *are* like this, some do open their eyes, because they need to feel sense and consistency. Normal people may have weird blindnesses to obvious cruelties of the world, but I'm sure they have plenty of bitterness inside that they have no clue where it comes from, and try to protect themselves by avoiding to look straight at it... Some do have the need to bring the bitterness to light and to see what's what.

Thank you @purplemoon for saying what you said the way you said it, and to those who added to the point.

 

[MeltingHeart]

agreed. I understand that it's a difficult and challenging conversation because it's a painful subject for anyone, and no one wants to be in pain.

people stop others from suicide because their loss and grief is extremely painful. people commit suicide because their lives are extremely painful.

plus, i think that humans generally react to something that they don't understand with fear and trepidation. not curiosity and an attitude to seek understanding and comprehension. it will be hard work for both sides to attempt to reach some form of understanding..

I agree with some of what you say & much of it - for some people & circumstances. But what if the people trying to stop you are doing so not out of a fear of loss & grief, love & care, but purely out of self interest/ preservation, concern about what others will think of it all. It's hard then not to feel anger towards them.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

The catch I feel is the other side (only from personal experience) would no way even be willing to enter info a dialogue about it- the stock answer is its wrong and it's very selfish- if I would try and have any kind of reasoned arguement/ rational conversation about it- I would be shut down- they would rather cover their ears- whilst going "la la la life is a gift-your wrong- your not being rational- your mentally ill-everyone can come out of this- no one that is physically well should EVER want to take their own life" ...how do you even start to have a open discussion when encountering that- it's literally impossible.

I agree. This website SS is the only place online or irL that I've been able to discuss suicide or ask about suicide methods.

Everywhere else besides SS if i say something like i want to commit suicide then people tell me stuff like "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem" .

And these anti-suicide people won't listen . I can't use logic with them and i've had several debates with people online in various platforms like youtube, internet forums etc. .

Of course i don't dare mention suicide or death in real life or in the real world , in person as i know they would call the police on me and get me put in a mental hospital, get me doxed, fired etc.

i have to remain anonymous and underground to even talk about suicide or else we'll be put in a mental hospital ,doxed etc.

I can't use logic like what does my suicide have to do with anyone else? Why can't i purchase something for personal use that will end my unbearable unending pain ? why must i suffer in pain for what reason?

I have no reason to live anyway. And we all die and age anyway. They can't even admit that some people might have a horrible life. They can't see that my choice to commit suicide is a rational reasoned response to the badness of my life not mental illness.

They can't even see the logic that my suicide will solve all my problems and pain at once and prevent any future , problems, pain, aging and painful death that will happen anyway. To me that's logical . To them i have to suffer and soldier on for what?

 

[Thatdude]

So the thing to know is a lot of people complain to complain. When it comes down to action. Outside of judging and what not. They don't give a crap about going down to the root cause to fix the problem. But at the same time they get mad at those taking ANY action to fix the problem.

I'm personally dealing with this where my drug addict sister and her kids move in. My parents complain about my sister, I tell them to kick her out and I give her solutions to get out. They get PO. They complain about her kids being loud. So I put them in time out, and they threaten to kick me out. (In fact, this is a big reason why I'm on here today. I have no kids, I have been doing what I see to be the right thing, and so on. And I'm already OK with offing myself, and if I get kicked out and have to fend for myself. Then fuck it. That takes away my only reason not to off myself. I mean I have the money to buy the shit anyways.)

In short, many being it is this or anything else. You will find them virtue signaling, and they try to control instead of researching, adapting, and fixing. I tend to ignore them until they stop me from doing something or whatever.

But note, it might be worth listing to what some of them have to say. Some of them actually have researched, adapt their thinking, and this is what they found to be a solution. Like there is no reason to discount a view point without listing to it.

At the risk of outing myself, here is a quote from a book I'm writing.

at no point should your emotions ever rule logic, and it should never rule what you do if it goes against logic. If what is said is uncomfortable but logically sound. Then this is worth exploring. And if the truth isn't logically sound, then you must ask if the truth you are holding is real or fake. If it's true but not logically sound, then the logic is flawed and this should be explored to correct your logic. If however the truth your holding is fake, then logically you must stop believing in it.

 

[lightsoutnow]

I agree with some of what you say & much of it - for some people & circumstances. But what if the people trying to stop you are doing so not out of a fear of loss & grief, love & care, but purely out of self interest/ preservation, concern about what others will think of it all. It's hard then not to feel anger towards them.

I recognize the type of people you've described - i.e. that my death would only tarnish their reputation - and it is ok to be angry. your feelings are valid and real.

i think what matters next, is how i respond to that. i can feel angry, and i can choose my reaction to them.

personally, if my pain is not understood or even their concern then why should i be bothered by people who only care about their own agenda? they can say all they want to say, but unless they take physical action to stop me, words mean nothing.

if they do take physical actions to stop me, well, I can't really comment on that because i've cut those type of people out of my life.

Edit:
going back to the point about sharing and educating pro-choice, the aforementioned type of people will not be suitable because parties involved in the conversation have to be willing to consider others' experiences and well-being. or else it'd be a one-way conversation that leads to nowhere.

 

[MeltingHeart]

I recognize the type of people you've described - i.e. that my death would only tarnish their reputation - and it is ok to be angry. your feelings are valid and real.

i think what matters next, is how i respond to that. i can feel angry, and i can choose my reaction to them.

personally, if my pain is not understood or even their concern then why should i be bothered by people who only care about their own agenda? they can say all they want to say, but unless they take physical action to stop me, words mean nothing.

if they do take physical actions to stop me, well, I can't really comment on that because i've cut those type of people out of my life.

Im trapped thou :(

 

[purplemoon]

I agree with some of what you say & much of it - for some people & circumstances. But what if the people trying to stop you are doing so not out of a fear of loss & grief, love & care, but purely out of self interest/ preservation, concern about what others will think of it all. It's hard then not to feel anger towards them.

Right, because they feel 'sad' upon hearing/knowing you are suicidal, offer up some empty anecdotes, then when you think, Oh this person 'cares' about me... You ask them to chat with you on the phone, or you think surely they will want to see you for coffee, etc but they're too 'busy' but found it convenient enough to relish a minute of feeling superior or heroic telling you what you 'should' do...

Yet they're not really being THERE for you... just pretending.

It's like the type of person who says "call me and let's do lunch sometime" but then they're never available.

What's odd is that I've had literally hundreds of friends over a my lifetime... and they all basically echoed the similar sentiment of what I nice person I am... YET the vast majority of them never reciprocated my help being there for them... but they would thank me and tell me how refreshing it is that I cared to help them... I finally started dropping/dumping 'friends' that basically only talked about themselves, never really asked about me, and everything was only about them, their needs, and the second the subject turned to either me or anyone else, suddenly they had to go/busy/some other time, but would say they 'care'....

What the ??