Can suicide be immoral?

[noname223]

Recently have watched a philosopher on YouTube . He said in order to come closer to the truth you have to imagine the thoughts of the people you disagree with the most. And you have to take their arguments serious and give them a real chance.
First I thought might be a good idea for a thread. But just repeating the talking points of pro-lifers (definiton for me: people who are against assisted suicide) was kind of boring. Then I thought about analyzing their arguments in detail and giving my opinion on them. But this seemed to be for me too one-sided. I am pretty much in favor of assisted suicide as a human right. And I think there are already a lot of threads with exactly this content.

So I thought about a topic which I can analyze with nuances. Here we go.

In which way can it be immoral to commit suicide. In the past in most countries suicide was a crime. In some countries commiting suicide is still a crime. Which is kind of cyncial in my point of view. Just punishing the people further. I think this also stems from religions which considered suicide as a sin. Also with the punishment of rotting in hell for it forever. Also a very cruel notion which increased my pain when I was suicidal and partly religious. Many Western religions consider suicide as an evil crime. They consider suicide as immoral. I think even some churches doubt this dogma more and more. But the vast majority of believers or clergy men deny the right of assisted sucide completely. Personally I deny most of their argumentations: God's plan, evil sin etc.


I think there is one way of committing suicide which I consider as fully immoral though murder-suicide. In my county it is rather called extended suicide if we translate it literally. I think this happens quite some times. And taking innocent people with into death is immoral if they want to live. I can remember one German mentally ill pilot who probably killed himself with a plane full of innocent civilians. This must be horrible for the innocent people and their loved ones. I can remember when that happened. I was in a mixed manic depressive episode and wished I would have been in this airplane but of course only as a passenger.
Then I remember a case which happened some years ago in my country. It had a lot of attention in the media. A mother killed all her 5 children and jumped afterwards in front of a train. She survived (severely) injured. I remember I read severely injured but now I only read injured. My mom was interested in the case. My mom abused me and my sister probably because she felt overburdened. And this mother had a similar motif but chose to kill their children instead. What a horrible tragedy.

But one could argument not the suicide is immoral rather the murder. But sometimes like in the airplane example one cannot make this differentiation.
Then there come the more difficult cases in my opinion. When I think about them in an ethical way.

What if one endangers other people with the method. One thing I consider kind of immoral is suicide by cop if the life of the cop is endangered. Moreover the cop has to deal with the guilt for the rest of his life. In my opinion that is ethically problematic.

The other thing I had in mind. Jumping from a high builing if it is known there are people on the street and one could accidentally kill one.
These cases were all about physical damage that one could cause. Now to even more ethically complex cases. What if mental trauma could be involved?

I am not sure which one is really immoral. You have to decide for yourself. but there are some cases I am ambivalent about. Which invokes ethical questions for me.

I can remember from the time I watched gore or shock videos (as a teenager): A guy called his ex-girlfriend. It was a video call. I hope I remember it correctly. He told her he can't live without her and then jumped out of the window. She must have known he was in a high builidng. I regret having watched stuff like that. I can remember she begged him not to do it. But he did it anyway. Maybe I should not judge. But it must have been very horrible for the woman. I am not sure why he wanted her to see it. It is heartbreaking for both.

Then there is the discussion whether jumping in front of a train is immoral. Due to the fact one might traumatize the traindriver. I don't want to judge about that. This is a pretty difficult question for me. And different people will have different answers for that.

I apologize if this thread offends anyone in case I am too judgmental. But there are already many posts who debate the ethics of jumping in front of a train.

 

[FuneralCry]

I think that with methods like jumping and the train it's the fault of the society for denying the option of a peaceful exit if others get traumatised. Many people are very desperate and have no other option, so that could never be immoral. I don't think that suicide could ever be immoral at all as it's a human right. There is nothing actually wrong with deciding to exit this world. Of course it's something completely different if murder is involved, but suicide is a personal decision.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I do understand where you are coming from and it's an interesting post.

The Germanwings pilot murder/suicide was horrific- I agree. I simply can't get my head around the desire or ambivalence to kill so many people in cold blood alongside yourself. As a method- ok- if you can fly but surely, he could have done so with a privately hired plane on his own. Can only imagine that it was either impulsive in a fit of despair, or it was his intention to kill as well.

I'm probably too messed up myself to really think about a mother killing her children alongside herself in a balanced way. My Mum died of natural causes when I was 3. From a massively selfish standpoint, I find it really upsetting when mothers leave their children. I wish I could have gone with my Mum but it's probably too horrific to think that it would be a good thing for a mother to go with her children.

While I think we all have the right to choose suicide, I can't say there are many cases where I would actually call it socially moral (although- I would say it surely would be better for the planet if a lot of us disappeared). Just about every case will cause suffering to someone but then- WE are suffering having to live each day. Which is more immoral? Ending your own suffering and causing those left behind pain or- expecting someone to live against their will?

I guess in some people's minds, they believe their exit will actually benefit their families. Saw a documentary on the mysterious death of 'Peter Bergman' (false name). He checked into a hotel, gradually disposed of all identifying papers over the coming days and was found dead on a beach. He was suffering from heart disease and prostate cancer. Authorities believed that he likely intended to commit suicide but may have collapsed and died before doing so. One theory is that he disposed of all identifying material to circumvent a life insurance policy clause. I guess suicide isn't always covered. While I suppose it would be dishonest to the insurance company, that struck me as an honourable thing to do- to try and look after his family (if that was the case).

I know what you mean. It's hard to fairly pass judgement on the very public suicides that involve other people first hand- jumping in front of trains, or off of bridges, or, provoking someone else to kill you. Personally, I would like my suicide to be as less upsetting as possible to complete strangers. While we might think society as a whole is shit, we have no way of controlling who will see/be affected by seeing or actually being complicit in a suicide. Still- I probably haven't been as 'abused' by society as other people. I guess it depends on your experiences as to what you are willing to do.

Overall though, I feel like morality is a man-made construction built mainly on religious beliefs. Supposedly, suicide is seen as equivalent to murder in religion- so- sinful. It likely will cause premature grief to our loved ones which I suppose is immoral and it may result in hell (depending on your/their beliefs) which could also separate you from them forever- depending on where they go.

Still- it all really does depend on your own belief system. I think the most unfair part of it is that we didn't choose to be born and we didn't agree to abide by these rules. We're just stuck here with all these problems.

 

[Euthanza]

Short answer: Yes, suicide can be immoral, not because it's suicide, but because the society has to pay their ignorance and denial of euthanasia and assisted suicide, it's a dumbfounded societal cost of modern times.

Long answer: No, suicide shouldn't have to be immoral, instead the society is becoming so deluded that majority of people forgets to even think that suicide can be a very moral act one can do to respect his/her own dignity or to protect the interests of the rest of the life when (historically) practised as self-sacrifice.

In the past, when there were no suicide prevention and no assisted suicide nor euthanasia, some people chose to stab themselves rather than to be defeated in war (are we still in the age of war? Probably) but now we add new peaceful means to suicide which shouldn't have to be as complex as suicide before modern times if only the society is honest enough to themselves and to each other.

I see suicide is not a matter of intelligence or smartness rather than a matter of honesty; Eventhough I believe low IQ makes suicide impossible just like suicide prevention makes peaceful suicide impossible.

What's is bothering me and is not happening, is that why are mostly the good people that commit suicide? Why not those lying politicians, the greedy billionaires or war heads corruptor that commit suicide? Who is being immoral here? When suicide is seen as immoral, I think those who force living is more than immoral, they are cruel and barbaric.

 

[No Entertainment]

I understand if any of you might disagree with me. But I think suicide can be immoral.

For example a parent with little kid who chooses suicide. I think this is wrong because you still have a responsibility to fullfil, which is to raise your kid to certain age (I'm thinking around 18 years). Killing yourself before fulfilling this responsibility is a selfish thing to do in my opinion. Kid left without parental figure usually become mentally broken. This is an immoral thing in my opinion.

Another example (this is a hypothetical one) is when the fate of the world rest on you. If humanity suffer from some magical plague that make majority of people infertile. The fertile person would be selfish if they commit suicide because the burden of producing next generation relies on them. (Again this is a fantasy/hypothetical scenario but I cannot think about it).

 

[Hollowillow]

Recently have watched a philosopher on YouTube . He said in order to come closer to the truth you have to imagine the thoughts of the people you disagree with the most. And you have to take their arguments serious and give them a real chance.
First I thought might be a good idea for a thread. But just repeating the talking points of pro-lifers (definiton for me: people who are against assisted suicide) was kind of boring. Then I thought about analyzing their arguments in detail and giving my opinion on them. But this seemed to be for me too one-sided. I am pretty much in favor of assisted suicide as a human right. And I think there are already a lot of threads with exactly this content.

So I thought about a topic which I can analyze with nuances. Here we go.

In which way can it be immoral to commit suicide. In the past in most countries suicide was a crime. In some countries commiting suicide is still a crime. Which is kind of cyncial in my point of view. Just punishing the people further. I think this also stems from religions which considered suicide as a sin. Also with the punishment of rotting in hell for it forever. Also a very cruel notion which increased my pain when I was suicidal and partly religious. Many Western religions consider suicide as an evil crime. They consider suicide as immoral. I think even some churches doubt this dogma more and more. But the vast majority of believers or clergy men deny the right of assisted sucide completely. Personally I deny most of their argumentations: God's plan, evil sin etc.


I think there is one way of committing suicide which I consider as fully immoral though murder-suicide. In my county it is rather called extended suicide if we translate it literally. I think this happens quite some times. And taking innocent people with into death is immoral if they want to live. I can remember one German mentally ill pilot who probably killed himself with a plane full of innocent civilians. This must be horrible for the innocent people and their loved ones. I can remember when that happened. I was in a mixed manic depressive episode and wished I would have been in this airplane but of course only as a passenger.
Then I remember a case which happened some years ago in my country. It had a lot of attention in the media. A mother killed all her 5 children and jumped afterwards in front of a train. She survived (severely) injured. I remember I read severely injured but now I only read injured. My mom was interested in the case. My mom abused me and my sister probably because she felt overburdened. And this mother had a similar motif but chose to kill their children instead. What a horrible tragedy.

But one could argument not the suicide is immoral rather the murder. But sometimes like in the airplane example one cannot make this differentiation.
Then there come the more difficult cases in my opinion. When I think about them in an ethical way.

What if one endangers other people with the method. One thing I consider kind of immoral is suicide by cop if the life of the cop is endangered. Moreover the cop has to deal with the guilt for the rest of his life. In my opinion that is ethically problematic.

The other thing I had in mind. Jumping from a high builing if it is known there are people on the street and one could accidentally kill one.
These cases were all about physical damage that one could cause. Now to even more ethically complex cases. What if mental trauma could be involved?

I am not sure which one is really immoral. You have to decide for yourself. but there are some cases I am ambivalent about. Which invokes ethical questions for me.

I can remember from the time I watched gore or shock videos (as a teenager): A guy called his ex-girlfriend. It was a video call. I hope I remember it correctly. He told her he can't live without her and then jumped out of the window. She must have known he was in a high builidng. I regret having watched stuff like that. I can remember she begged him not to do it. But he did it anyway. Maybe I should not judge. But it must have been very horrible for the woman. I am not sure why he wanted her to see it. It is heartbreaking for both.

Then there is the discussion whether jumping in front of a train is immoral. Due to the fact one might traumatize the traindriver. I don't want to judge about that. This is a pretty difficult question for me. And different people will have different answers for that.

I apologize if this thread offends anyone in case I am too judgmental. But there are already many posts who debate the ethics of jumping in front of a train.

You gave great examples I never tought of. An idea of immoral suicide would be a mother finding her husband raping her child, having a gun with 1 bullet, but using it to commit suicide instead to kill a pedo & save a child.

I think suicide should be done ourselves. Otherwise it's murder and that's not a human right. But an easy mean should be available. But it could cause murders. I guess supervised suicide... But the most deserving of released are the paralyzed... I wouldn't condemn the killerz but I wouldn't force a doctor to kill. Especially since people still believe in hell.

 

[Euthanza]

I understand if any of you might disagree with me. But I think suicide can be immoral.

For example a parent with little kid who chooses suicide. I think this is wrong because you still have a responsibility to fullfil, which is to raise your kid to certain age (I'm thinking around 18 years). Killing yourself before fulfilling this responsibility is a selfish thing to do in my opinion. Kid left without parental figure usually become mentally broken. This is an immoral thing in my opinion.

Yes there's a responsibility to become a parent and it's not negotiable. But what if I put my anecdotal shoes of the suicidal parent; what if s/he has loan that's too huge to pay a life time or if s/he's a chronic addict convicted in jail that's only burden to the family, or s/he's even an abuser that's not good for everyone else including for him/her self, instead if s/he died then the insurance will cover the cost of education the children? I think that's moral.

 

[No Entertainment]

Yes there's a responsibility to become a parent and it's not negotiable. But what if I put my anecdotal shoes of the suicidal parent; what if s/he has loan that's too huge to pay a life time or if s/he's a chronic addict convicted in jail that's only burden to the family, or s/he's even an abuser that's not good for everyone else including for him/her self, instead if s/he died then the insurance will cover the cost of education the children? I think that's moral.

That's good point. I have to agree. But I'm not too sure if there any insurance that cover suicide. Usually insurance cover accidental death such a car crash or work incident. And there's nothing accidental about suicide.

 

[Euthanza]

That's good point. I have to agree. But I'm not too sure if there any insurance that cover suicide. Usually insurance cover accidental death such a car crash or work incident. And there's nothing accidental about suicide.

Prudential and Manulife do covers suicide and homicide.

 

[Rational man]

During the second world war, the Japanese pilots acted by Kamikaze by honouring their Emperor/ GOD. Probably not dissimilar to the modern day acts we see today, for example 9/11, middle east terrorists. Any sane person would see this as delusional and murderous, but for the fact that it appears to be done as perceived service to something that is non existent. Humankind, therefore writes his own moral code. That innocent and healthy people DIE because of a belief system and that people with suffering and pain find it hard to find dignity in dying....what sort of loving god is that?. We need to forgot about god and focus how humankind can help each other.

 

[Hercules]

That's good point. I have to agree. But I'm not too sure if there any insurance that cover suicide. Usually insurance cover accidental death such a car crash or work incident. And there's nothing accidental about suicide.

Suicide is covered. Most companies have a suicide clause in the policy that says that they will pay out in cases of suicide after the first 2 years. Make sure you read through the entire policy carefully -especially the suicide clause- and understand exactly what the exemptions are before you sign up.

 

[Julgran]

I believe that suicide is immoral if the suicidal person involves other people against their will - by using them as the means of suicide - or if the suicidal person is leaving a person or animal behind for whom they are responsible.