Discussion Can I Still Go to Heaven?

[esse_est_percipi]

Without bringing up a deep religious conversation

This was inevitably going to happen lol

 

[lost guy]

I suggest that perversion stems in great part from a prior perversion of the introduction of Mahayana Buddhism, which rewrote the dhamma and and included other beliefs from Hinduism and tantra.

Also, Westerners didn't pervert Buddhism, but Buddhists who brought it to the West. There may be other examples, but I'm specifically referring to Chogyam Trungpa, founder of Shambala Buddhism and Naropa University.

Edit: I will allow that Westerners may have played a role. I personally think there was social engineering at play in the introduction, same with the introduction of Hinduism with Swami Vivekananda and the second wave with the Beatles' guru. Much of this began, at least out in the open, with Theosophy, which was also active in England.

Hope OP is okay with this derailing. Every thread like this seems to derail in such a fashion. One reason why I threw in that beating to the punch.

Not a problem. I enjoyed it, a learning experience. I guess it's a matter of my own belief whether or not if I will will go to heaven after I CTB. I am still unsure and it bothers me a bit. Everyone gave some great perspectives. Thank you!

This was inevitably going to happen lol

Yes, I kind of knew it was going to happen. But, it was great to see the different perspectives.

 

[muffin222]

I don't believe that we're condemned for committing suicide. Suicidal thoughts are not necessarily a choice, in my opinion. Painful circumstances, trauma, abuse, or mental illness push a lot of people to the point where they feel hopeless and trapped and want out, so suicide seems like a viable option. I can't imagine any loving creator would punish vulnerable souls for that

 

[Meditation guide]

just look into near death reports, there is no hell, just pure bliss.

Actually there have been a few that mentioned hell. Most do seem to prefer where they ended up at to this world. It's hard, listening to them talk, not to sometimes wonder if they are lying when they revert to talking about Christianity. They sound like preachers, the way they deliver their stories sometimes. I listened to a few on youtube, and they ended up talking about things that sounded like they wanted to convince people to be Christians. However people report experiences that fit into their religion, no matter what it is.

 

[bigdog]

No, since heaven does not exist. And you can't go to hell either, for the same reason. If you ctb you will simply cease to exist. There won't be any "you" to go anywhere.

Yeah unfortunately no more adventures

 

[Myforevercharlie]

I'm not religious..I was brought up that way. The Bible says that God loves all his children. I don't see love in sending away a child who needs help.
So imho you are welcome in heaven

 

[esse_est_percipi]

I would suggest reading through CTB related NDEs and OBEs. As they're probably the closest testimonials you'll get on this subject.

Could some of these not just be attributed to a sort of neurochemical death spasm? (dmt discharge from the pineal gland or something..although even if it was, I suppose this still wouldn't explain why a dmt discharge causes these specific transcendental and life-changing experiences).

Also, quite a few talk about things like harps, mirrors, music, boats, tables etc. It all just seems very implausible that human artefacts would have anything to do with something as mysterious and profound as the continuation of consciousness after death.
Some of the accounts just seem all too human products of imagination.

I'm not dismissing all of them or saying that they don't tell us anything, I'm just a bit skeptical.

 

[Nymph]

I'm not religious but if you hate life so bad that you'd rather die I feel like you deserve to go to heaven.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

I'm not religious but if you hate life so bad that you'd rather die I feel like you deserve to go to heaven.

yes that's a good way of looking at it.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Could some of these not just be attributed to a sort of neurochemical death spasm? (dmt discharge from the pineal gland or something..although even if it was, I suppose this still wouldn't explain why a dmt discharge causes these specific transcendental and life-changing experiences).

Also, quite a few talk about things like harps, mirrors, music, boats, tables etc. It all just seems very implausible that human artefacts would have anything to do with something as mysterious and profound as the continuation of consciousness after death.
Some of the accounts just seem all too human products of imagination.

I'm not dismissing all of them or saying that they don't tell us anything, I'm just a bit skeptical.

Not to get into tinfoil hat stuff, this isn't the thread for it, but I find NDEs suspicious. They vary from person to person, some have hellish experiences, some heavenly, some mundane, some weird. They generally have similarities throughout Western culture, but they're totally different in Indian culture, in which one usually finds themselves in a bureaucratic type of office where the ones who brought them there are chewed out for bring the wrong person with the same name, the one who died is treated rudely by that being, and then they're sent back. They don't have a white light experience and see loved ones.

 

[Brick In The Wall]

Could some of these not just be attributed to a sort of neurochemical death spasm? (dmt discharge from the pineal gland or something..although even if it was, I suppose this still wouldn't explain why a dmt discharge causes these specific transcendental and life-changing experiences).

Also, quite a few talk about things like harps, mirrors, music, boats, tables etc. It all just seems very implausible that human artefacts would have anything to do with something as mysterious and profound as the continuation of consciousness after death.
Some of the accounts just seem all too human products of imagination.

I'm not dismissing all of them or saying that they don't tell us anything, I'm just a bit skeptical.

Yes of course, and I should've elaborated a bit more about that being the possibility in some cases. I believe it's mentioned as well on the website.

There almost is no wrong answer to the question the OP posed. The science is lacking, teachings rely on faith, and we're left to speculate as to the real truth.

 

[Starseedchip]

I'm no longer a believer but was raised Catholic. Jesus as depicted in the Bible is loving and forever forgiving. Ignore anyone who tries to speak for him. Much of what you hear about the Christian/Catholic faith is altered to fit the narrative of others. Most religious folks have zero knowledge of the faith. So if it's Jesus and God you believe in then know you will be fine. You will be forgiven and loved.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

Yes of course, and I should've elaborated a bit more about that being the possibility in some cases. I believe it's mentioned as well on the website.

There almost is no wrong answer to the question the OP posed. The science is lacking, teachings rely on faith, and we're left to speculate as to the real truth.

Yes, all that being said, it is interesting to read those NDE accounts.

Have you heard of the neurosurgeon eben alexander, who wrote 'Proof of heaven: a neurosurgeon's journey into the afterlife'?
Certainly not a proof, but interesting anyway.

 

[Joey]

Yes, all that being said, it is interesting to read those NDE accounts.

Have you heard of the neurosurgeon eben alexander, who wrote 'Proof of heaven: a neurosurgeon's journey into the afterlife'?
Certainly not a proof, but interesting anyway.

DMT is a powerful drug

 

[degeneratewaste]

There is literally no way to discuss this without it getting religious. Heaven/hell/purgatory, whatever you believe in, it's all centred around God and religion. Personally I don't believe any of it exists, and it doesn't matter which way you die, you're gonna just end up in the ground. But it's all dependent on your belief and no one should be condescended for whatever belief makes them comfortable. Very subjective question to ask. Sorry you are worrying so much about it and I hope you can find peace in whatever you choose.

 

[Brick In The Wall]

Yes, all that being said, it is interesting to read those NDE accounts.

Have you heard of the neurosurgeon eben alexander, who wrote 'Proof of heaven: a neurosurgeon's journey into the afterlife'?
Certainly not a proof, but interesting anyway.

I didn't read the book he wrote, but I saw a lecture he did on it. Someone had posted it to the last thread that was like this. These kinda threads always bring fascinating opinions together.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

DMT is a powerful drug

I would say that DMT is no proof one way or the other concerning whether consciousness can survive the death of the brain.

All conscious experiences are modulated by some neurochemical or other (serotonin, dopamine etc).
The real question is whether the brain and its chemicals act as a filter or reducing valve for a pre-existing (quantum?) consciousness, or more as a spontaneous generator of consciousness (which would therefore cease when the brain dies.)

No one knows.

 

[Deleted member 19276]

If anything, I don't think you will go to hell for it.
I don't think a God of any kind, that cares for it's creations will send a person with a mental illness there.
Not really religious, but at least my bet so far.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

If hell exists and God sends people's souls to it to be tormented for eternity after they ctb (or disobey any of his commands),
then there is no God.
Only the Devil.

 

[Meditation guide]

So if it's Jesus and God you believe in then know you will be fine. You will be forgiven and loved.

I wonder why we are only fine after we die but not here in this world? I've seriously wondered if THIS world is actually hell and we simply do not get told that. Or maybe this is one of many levels of hell.

Jesus and God don't mind if we suffer here do they?

 

[esse_est_percipi]

I've seriously wondered if THIS world is actually hell and we simply do not get told that

This could be the greatest cover-up in history.

 

[Joey]

I would say that DMT is no proof one way or the other concerning whether consciousness can survive the death of the brain.

All conscious experiences are modulated by some neurochemical or other (serotonin, dopamine etc).
The real question is whether the brain and its chemicals act as a filter or reducing valve for a pre-existing (quantum?) consciousness, or more as a spontaneous generator of consciousness (which would therefore cease when the brain dies.)

No one knows.

/explainlikeimfive

Sorry :(

 

[esse_est_percipi]

/explainlikeimfive

Sorry :(

Sorry, I wasn't being very clear.

I just meant to say that DMT experiences/NDEs may or may not show that consciousness is independent of the brain.

Because we still don't know what conscious is or how it is related to the brain.

Consciousness may just be produced by the brain and stop when the brain dies.

Or the brain might act more as a receiver which tunes in to an independent (of the brain) consciousness, so on this model consciousness would continue to exist after the brain dies.

Consciousness is still a mystery.

 

[TrailerTrash]

Just as with my personal situation, when a person can bypass their normal, instinctive, and primal survival instinct(s) within themselves to take their own life, there is something seriously going wrong in their life, mind, thinking, and possibly their body - all areas are going wrong for me by my own admission. This is why I feel/hope/trust that God will be the only One able to fairly judge, including all the complexities going on behind the scenes with each person. I'll find out soon enough - sadly, dead men tell no tales. Just part of the decision to stay or go and, as in life, you can choose many paths, but not the consequences that go with the path(s) chosen. Wishing everyone the best no matter what they decide.

 

[Meditation guide]

Because we still don't know what conscious is or how it is related to the brain.

Physicists know that something like consciousness exists and in some way controls our perception of reality or what we think of now as reality. Things do not actually exist at all until we become aware of them.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

Things do not actually exist at all until we become aware of them.

This is one interpretation of quantum mechanics and the measurement problem.
It would be imprudent to extrapolate one interpretation of quantum mechanics and say it's true of everything at every scale.

e.g. nothing in physics says that energy or spacetime or stars or galaxies only exist once we become aware of them.
That kind of idealism belongs to philosophy

Physicists know that something like consciousness exists and in some way controls our perception of reality

yes I agree with this.

But neuroscientists do seem to have pinned consciousness down to at least depending on brain states in some way, the so-called neural correlates of consciousness (NCCs).

Now whether brain states actually generate consciousness like a machine generates heat, or whether they act more like a filter which allows a pre-existent consciousness to operate within the bandwidth of visible light (which is only 0.0035% of the whole electromagnetic spectrum) is another question.

 

[MeriDeath]

Hear me, im jewish and i live in israel. and I dont think bible says directly that you go to hell if you take your own life. But big preaches/rabbies here like to blabber about it since they think of life as something with a great value and of course they are so pro-religion and pro- life thar they try to get us off the idea whenever they can. But honestly I think once you get up "there" you wont go to hell for suffering, if you Do I swear god is unuseful. I mean, this wouldnt be the god I want but ok. Also, I dont know lots about heaven but I can tell you one thing, it seems to me like neither hell or heaven exist above us. The idea itself sounds really unbelievable. No one gonna punish you, in my eyes. Because that's just not fair. But we can never know I guess. I strongly think tho that when you die your soul continues to live somewhere and reincarnates probably, or you just fade into the nothing. Its less probable that you gonna be standing in line waiting for your long life sentence in front of god and his angels.

 

[mr.smileysad]

Actually, I was in a sarcastic mood when I said I was beating others to the punch about hell, it was more about the fact that on every thread like this, several people will say earth or this life is hell.

earth seems pretty close to hell so they wouldn't be wrong if earth wasn't hell then this website wouldn't need to exist
I found a post on here a while ago maybe its somewhere still Its called the afterlife from an OBE travelers perspective or something like that it brought up a lot of good points and variations of the afterlife

 

[Meditation guide]

nothing in physics says that energy or spacetime or stars or galaxies only exist once we become aware of them.

There is a universal consciousness. It's beyond our ability to understand it given our state of the brain interpreting things habitually in ways that seem to make more sense.

 

[CarbonMonoxide]

Not to get into tinfoil hat stuff, this isn't the thread for it, but I find NDEs suspicious. They vary from person to person, some have hellish experiences, some heavenly, some mundane, some weird.

I find NDEs suspicious as well. The way I see it, soon it will be proven that an NDE is the brain's way of reacting to the extreme trauma of death. For example, extreme physical exertion leads to the release of adrenalin. This enables humans to perform way beyond their ordinary capabilities.

Also, in the event of extreme injury to the body, endorphins are released which enable one to bear terrible pain. I believe that an NDE is the brain's way of making it easier for you to transition into non-existence. This could be why they vary so much in nature depending on one's belief system.