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FrickKuromi345

FrickKuromi345

"Call no man fortunate who is not dead"
May 12, 2020
2
So on Stan's Suicide Guide to SN I notice Stan doesn't really discuss whether putting it in food is a bad idea. They say that putting it in a liquid other than water is no good because you don't want to change the chemical properties of the SN by putting it in Orange juice and having it turn to Nitrate.

But if I put Sodium Nitrite in a Burger? Like if I just lifted up the bun and poured 25 MG of SN in there? Or maybe a Taco Bell Burrito? Something small so I don't run the risk of vomiting. I think that it'd lower the effectiveness because you'd have some food in you, but it would probably reduce the risk of vomiting on ingestion because the taste would not be so much.

What are your thoughts?
 
L

Living sucks

Forced out of life before I wanted to leave
Mar 27, 2020
3,143
Stans guide clearly states you should fast and have an empty stomach... however there are people who have not prepared and still ctb'd with food in their stomach.
It's funny.. I know it's not recommended but I have thought the same thing.. if I just put some SN on my food and pretend like I'm not ctbing.
btw you're going to get ripped apart for suggesting it. Have fun
 
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GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
Jan 11, 2020
6,727
Use the site search with terms "SN food."
 
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FrickKuromi345

FrickKuromi345

"Call no man fortunate who is not dead"
May 12, 2020
2
Use the site search with terms "SN food."

I went through 5 pages of results after searching and didn't find a concrete answer. Only one thread was actually relevant. I'm hoping I can get more opinions with this.
 
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GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
Jan 11, 2020
6,727
I went through 5 pages of results after searching and didn't find a concrete answer. Only one thread was actually relevant. I'm hoping I can get more opinions with this.

It might be helpful to comment with the text from your OP on the relevant thread to bump it.
 
autumnal

autumnal

Enlightened
Feb 4, 2020
1,950
I went through 5 pages of results after searching and didn't find a concrete answer. Only one thread was actually relevant. I'm hoping I can get more opinions with this.

The 'concrete answer' is the fact that both the PPH and Stan's Guide clearly require fasting for a given period beforehand. Fasting means not eating, and this includes the whole timeframe ranging from hours beforehand right through to the actual moment of ingestion (and indeed the period after ingestion also).

[...]
I think that it'd lower the effectiveness because you'd have some food in you, but it would probably reduce the risk of vomiting on ingestion because the taste would not be so much.
[...]

The vomiting on ingestion of SN comes about due to the instinctive survival reaction from the body to expel poisons as detected in the stomach. It has nothing to do with our tastebuds finding the 'taste' of something pleasant or unpleasant. The vomiting from SN would occur regardless of whether SN tasted unpleasant, neutral or pleasant.

The only way to reduce this instinctive vomiting is from the use of appropriate antiemetics (or appropriate alternatives).
 
Suez

Suez

Experienced
Feb 27, 2020
279
So on Stan's Suicide Guide to SN I notice Stan doesn't really discuss whether putting it in food is a bad idea. They say that putting it in a liquid other than water is no good because you don't want to change the chemical properties of the SN by putting it in Orange juice and having it turn to Nitrate.

But if I put Sodium Nitrite in a Burger? Like if I just lifted up the bun and poured 25 MG of SN in there? Or maybe a Taco Bell Burrito? Something small so I don't run the risk of vomiting. I think that it'd lower the effectiveness because you'd have some food in you, but it would probably reduce the risk of vomiting on ingestion because the taste would not be so much.

What are your thoughts?
@Jumper Geo and I were having some fun conversations a couple of weeks ago about mixing SN powder with Dark Chocolate, after we had melted the chocolate in the microwave and then cooled it in the fridge. Once cooled the mixture was formed into small balls and consumed. Jumper Geo had actually tried this with some other ingrediant to see how effective it was at disguising the taste and apparently it was very effective. Anyway you should probably go and do a search of threads . Your sure to find all our conversations, there were several of them. Have fun reading them all.
 
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I

I screwed up

Waiting for the damn bus
Sep 11, 2019
883
Actually small nuggets of chocolate mixed with SN is a good idea. The volume of chocolate is not large enough negate the fasting ( unlike more solid food ) but at the same time it will successfully mask the taste.
 
Suez

Suez

Experienced
Feb 27, 2020
279
The 'concrete answer' is the fact that both the PPH and Stan's Guide clearly require fasting for a given period beforehand. Fasting means not eating, and this includes the whole timeframe ranging from hours beforehand right through to the actual moment of ingestion (and indeed the period after ingestion also).



The vomiting on ingestion of SN comes about due to the instinctive survival reaction from the body to expel poisons as detected in the stomach. It has nothing to do with our tastebuds finding the 'taste' of something pleasant or unpleasant. The vomiting from SN would occur regardless of whether SN tasted unpleasant, neutral or pleasant.

The only way to reduce this instinctive vomiting is from the use of appropriate antiemetics (or appropriate alternatives).
I would really have to question where that information came from @autumnal regarding "Vomiting on ingestion of SN is due to instinctive survival reaction from the body to expel poisons detected in the stomach?" Sodium nitrite has long been used as a medication for Pulmonary vasodilation and also as an antidote in cyanide poisoning, so if the body were to voluntarily want to expel this medication in response to an "instinctive survival reaction" when administered to patients in these circumstances there would have been alot more dead people about I would imagine.
 
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autumnal

autumnal

Enlightened
Feb 4, 2020
1,950
I would really have to question where that information came from @autumnal regarding "Vomiting on ingestion of SN is due to instinctive survival reaction from the body to expel poisons detected in the stomach?" Sodium nitrite has long been used as a medication for Pulmonary vasodilation and also as an antidote in cyanide poisoning, so if the body were to voluntarily want to expel this medication in response to an "instinctive survival reaction" when administered to patients in these circumstances there would have been alot more dead people about I would imagine.

It's just basic science and physiology. It is also mentioned in Stan's Guide if you need a reference for it:

'You are drinking a toxic liquid and your body defences will recognise this and may try to cleanse your body. One of the defence systems is vomiting'.

There's a saying in science which is 'the dose makes the poison'. This refers to the fact that some things can be completely safe (or even beneficial) in some amounts, but harmful in other amounts.

Sodium nitrite does have medical uses as you mention, however as a cyanide antidote it is warned that...

4.1 Therapeutic indications​

Sodium nitrite is indicated for sequential use with sodium thiosulfate for the treatment of acute cyanide poisoning that is judged to be life-threatening. When the diagnosis of cyanide poisoning is uncertain, the potentially life-threatening risks associated with sodium nitrite should be carefully weighed against the potential benefits, especially if the patient is not in extremis. [my emphasis].​


...and...

Sodium nitrite can cause serious adverse reactions and death in humans, even at doses less than twice the recommended therapeutic dose. Sodium nitrite causes hypotension and methemoglobin formation, which diminishes oxygen carrying capacity. Hypotension and methemoglobin formation can occur concurrently or separately. Because of these risks, sodium nitrite should be used to treat acute life-threatening cyanide poisoning and be used with caution in patients where the diagnosis of cyanide poisoning is uncertain.​


So there is nothing incompatible about SN having both poisonous and cyanide-antidote effects. I'm not a chemist, and can't really explain the mechanism of action any clearer than this tech-speak does:

Sn cyanide antidote mechanism of action


Well, I can give it a shot: The cyanide is obviously harmful. The SN creates methemoglobin, which are basically blood cells which are unable to transport oxygen. However, methemoglobin also has a high attraction to cyanide. So the cyanide joins with the methemoglobin to create a harmless compound called cyanomethemoglobin. So the cyanide is rendered harmless by the SN.

Once the cyanide is rendered harmless, I don't know whether the patient then needs to be treated with methylene blue to reverse the other life-threatening effects of the SN. Or whether the dequential use of sodium thiosulfate addresses this. Or whether all of the SN given is already used up in binding with the cyanide, and so there is no unused SN present to cause any life-threatening effects. Someone from a chemistry background will know this.

I don't know anything about SN being a treatment for pulmonary vasodilation, however presumably the doses used for this are much lower than those used as a suicide method. Remember, 'the dose makes the poison'.
 
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A

Aap

Enlightened
Apr 26, 2020
1,856
You're on the right track. The dose alone determines toxicity ;) A prof said that on day 1.
 
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Suez

Suez

Experienced
Feb 27, 2020
279
It's just basic science and physiology. It is also mentioned in Stan's Guide if you need a reference for it:

'You are drinking a toxic liquid and your body defences will recognise this and may try to cleanse your body. One of the defence systems is vomiting'.

There's a saying in science which is 'the dose makes the poison'. This refers to the fact that some things can be completely safe (or even beneficial) in some amounts, but harmful in other amounts.

Sodium nitrite does have medical uses as you mention, however as a cyanide antidote it is warned that...

4.1 Therapeutic indications​

Sodium nitrite is indicated for sequential use with sodium thiosulfate for the treatment of acute cyanide poisoning that is judged to be life-threatening. When the diagnosis of cyanide poisoning is uncertain, the potentially life-threatening risks associated with sodium nitrite should be carefully weighed against the potential benefits, especially if the patient is not in extremis. [my emphasis].​


...and...

Sodium nitrite can cause serious adverse reactions and death in humans, even at doses less than twice the recommended therapeutic dose. Sodium nitrite causes hypotension and methemoglobin formation, which diminishes oxygen carrying capacity. Hypotension and methemoglobin formation can occur concurrently or separately. Because of these risks, sodium nitrite should be used to treat acute life-threatening cyanide poisoning and be used with caution in patients where the diagnosis of cyanide poisoning is uncertain.​


So there is nothing incompatible about SN having both poisonous and cyanide-antidote effects. I'm not a chemist, and can't really explain the mechanism of action any clearer than this tech-speak does:



Well, I can give it a shot: The cyanide is obviously harmful. The SN creates methemoglobin, which are basically blood cells which are unable to transport oxygen. However, methemoglobin also has a high attraction to cyanide. So the cyanide joins with the methemoglobin to create a harmless compound called cyanomethemoglobin. So the cyanide is rendered harmless by the SN.

Once the cyanide is rendered harmless, I don't know whether the patient then needs to be treated with methylene blue to reverse the other life-threatening effects of the SN. Or whether the dequential use of sodium thiosulfate addresses this. Or whether all of the SN given is already used up in binding with the cyanide, and so there is no unused SN present to cause any life-threatening effects. Someone from a chemistry background will know this.

I don't know anything about SN being a treatment for pulmonary vasodilation, however presumably the doses used for this are much lower than those used as a suicide method. Remember, 'the dose makes the poison'.
I am a Scientist and also an MD so thats why I queried what you said because of its use in medicine. So to make a blanket statement that its your defence systems basic survival instinct that will kick in is not true because in certain doses it is acceptable. Your defence system is a
It's just basic science and physiology. It is also mentioned in Stan's Guide if you need a reference for it:

'You are drinking a toxic liquid and your body defences will recognise this and may try to cleanse your body. One of the defence systems is vomiting'.

There's a saying in science which is 'the dose makes the poison'. This refers to the fact that some things can be completely safe (or even beneficial) in some amounts, but harmful in other amounts.

Sodium nitrite does have medical uses as you mention, however as a cyanide antidote it is warned that...

4.1 Therapeutic indications​

Sodium nitrite is indicated for sequential use with sodium thiosulfate for the treatment of acute cyanide poisoning that is judged to be life-threatening. When the diagnosis of cyanide poisoning is uncertain, the potentially life-threatening risks associated with sodium nitrite should be carefully weighed against the potential benefits, especially if the patient is not in extremis. [my emphasis].​


...and...

Sodium nitrite can cause serious adverse reactions and death in humans, even at doses less than twice the recommended therapeutic dose. Sodium nitrite causes hypotension and methemoglobin formation, which diminishes oxygen carrying capacity. Hypotension and methemoglobin formation can occur concurrently or separately. Because of these risks, sodium nitrite should be used to treat acute life-threatening cyanide poisoning and be used with caution in patients where the diagnosis of cyanide poisoning is uncertain.​


So there is nothing incompatible about SN having both poisonous and cyanide-antidote effects. I'm not a chemist, and can't really explain the mechanism of action any clearer than this tech-speak does:



Well, I can give it a shot: The cyanide is obviously harmful. The SN creates methemoglobin, which are basically blood cells which are unable to transport oxygen. However, methemoglobin also has a high attraction to cyanide. So the cyanide joins with the methemoglobin to create a harmless compound called cyanomethemoglobin. So the cyanide is rendered harmless by the SN.

Once the cyanide is rendered harmless, I don't know whether the patient then needs to be treated with methylene blue to reverse the other life-threatening effects of the SN. Or whether the dequential use of sodium thiosulfate addresses this. Or whether all of the SN given is already used up in binding with the cyanide, and so there is no unused SN present to cause any life-threatening effects. Someone from a chemistry background will know this.

I don't know anything about SN being a treatment for pulmonary vasodilation, however presumably the doses used for this are much lower than those used as a suicide method. Remember, 'the dose makes the poison'.
Well I am a Scientist and also an MD and that why i asked about where you got your information as to make a blanket claim that your bodys defence system will go into survival mode when you ingest a poison as that is simply not true. As I said we have been using Sodium Nitrite in Medicine both for Vasodilation and also in cyanide poisoning cases for a long time. I think you need to be carefull about "quoting"information of a medical nature when you dont fully understand it. I think thats where confusion can set in for people and misinterpretation and sometimes that can lead to some pretty awfull mistakes being made when people believe what they are reading, particularly so when this is a suicide forum and people will be using this forum to gather information about how much of a certain drug to take etc etc .
Cutting and pasting in information you have seen about a Poison, writing things in bold and underlining them for effect, using quotation marks, saying "the concrete answer is" may work for some people that are desperate and looking for answers. The judicious use of formatting to divert a persons attention to things of importance or to give text meaning does influence people. The "Its just Basic Science and Phsiology" advice you gave me would not have got any of us through our first year in Med school Im afraid. And regards using Stans Guide as a reference, unless I knew him or knew of his work or that he is a published author or at the very least co-author of a publication in a journal of similar quality to BMJ then I would not reference him.
Im only interested in getting facts out there. At the bottom of your post, it seems you are wanting to educate me when you say "Remember the dose makes the poison" An adage that was intended to indicate what is the most basic principle of toxicology that "All things are poison, and nothing is without poison; the dosage alone makes it so a thing is not a poison" often condenced to "The dose makes the poison" credited to Paracelsus. You also said that "presumably" the doses used for Vasodilation are much lower than those used as a suicide method" The doses of Sodium Nitrite we typically use (to reduce systolic blood pressure/reduce levels of oxidative stress) is around 15 mg/kg/day, while this administration is over the course of a day, Im sure i dont need to do the calculations for you to see that this still represents a significant quantity of Sodium Nitrite and not much lower as you assumed. Also with regards to Cyanide Poisoning , we use DBL™ Sodium Nitrite Injection as the antidote to cyanide. In an adult the usual dose administered would be 300 mg (10 mL of a 3% solution) administered intravenously at a rate of 75 to150 mg/min. Sodium thiosulfate is typically administered immediately following the sodium nitrite dosage, so the 10ml dose you see is only Sodium Nitrite alone.

Please Im asking that you treat all Medical information with the sensitivity and accuracy that it deserves. It is clear from what you have said that you do not know what you are saying about Sodium Nitrite, its actions & interactions & interactions with other medications, Its formulations, its chemistry how it is metabolised in the body, what it interacts with, its pharmacodynamic properties, pharmacokinetic protperties. People are very suggestable and when they are desperate they lap up this kind of information. Because it sounds so technical to them they think that the person writing it must know what theyre talking about and so they believe it, hook line and sinker. Please just think about this when you go to post more information about medications or drugs. You cant just make blanket statements like you did.
 
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A

Aap

Enlightened
Apr 26, 2020
1,856
Thank you for posting this. It needed to be said and said often.
 
Quarky00

Quarky00

Enlightened
Dec 17, 2019
1,956
This was explained before .

Body will expel (vomit) poison. The more content you have (food, water) it will expel more SN, thus reduce fatality. There's a reason for using 50ml of water and not 200ml. Member here who drunk 1.5L water survived. Volume and digestion are significant. SN ingestion in a fast and easy way is important. Anything you put in your GI will cause more churning of stomach, secrection of stomach juices, pancreatic enzymes, delayed intestinal processing, etc -- and will significantly slow down the digestive system (while increasing chances of vomiting). This means prolonged death with much stomach discomfit (to put it mildly).

TLDR: Don't add food to SN.

Liquids travel rather quickly. Water in stomach empties into intestines within 5-10m. It undergoes no processing, absorbed to blood within 30-60m (osmosis).
Water could be minimized 2h before – and halted 1h before.

Small amounts of simple sugars are relatively quick. But they do involve some stomach churning/breakdown (~15m). They do change pH (for ~ 1.5h). And they take longer to be absorbed in intestines (~ 1.5h-2h).
Simple sugars could be minimized 4h before – and halted 2h before.

Stomach pH returns to balance around 1h after it empties.

And of course there is a graph .

If I really really really had to – I would drink a glass 2h before, at most. That should be rather safe to empty 90% intestines and return stomach pH to balance.

In graph we're interested in hours 3.0-4.0, and pH (green) return to normal:

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/attachments/main-qimg-5d817ecc1777b0b2cdaaaa4e204c177b-c-jpeg.24689/

As nitrogen explained , stomach pH is lowered (more acidic) even by the thought of food . It's not the acidity that is a problem but the entire arousal and springing into action of the digestive system when there is actual food in it. This graph is not about pH but used as indicative of how long it would take the stomach to 'calm down' after digestion .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sodium nitrite has long been used as a medication for Pulmonary vasodilation and also as an antidote in cyanide poisoning, so if the body were to voluntarily want to expel this medication in response to an "instinctive survival reaction" when administered to patients in these circumstances there would have been alot more dead people about I would imagine.
You have detailed practices of "administering SN" in which it is given by IV -- not oral ingestion. These amounts, 15 mg/kg/day or 300mg, are lower. It's 60 times lower so I think you are wrong to say it's not "much lower". autunmnal suggestion is indeed correct, as prokinetic AEs target chemoreceptor trigger zone from stomach, and I don't see a reason to question this basic common well-researched vomiting process. CTZ is the instinctive reaction for poisons/toxins in the GI.

I did not fully understand your goal -- are you questioning CTZ or saying SN is not poisonous? I honestly don't know.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/attachments/vomiting-centres-png.12442/


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Suez , @Jumper Geo , @I screwed up , I would be very cautious with "chocolate SN" . Taking something sweet and low in calories afterward is a different practice than actually introducing 100cal+ food with caffeine, acidity, fats, and perhaps even lactose to stomach -- right before SN. If you do float these ideas just for fun, it's better to be sure that this is clear to the reader. If you are exploring them seriously, better research it thoroughly.
 
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autumnal

autumnal

Enlightened
Feb 4, 2020
1,950
I am a Scientist and also an MD so thats why I queried what you said because of its use in medicine. So to make a blanket statement that its your defence systems basic survival instinct that will kick in is not true because in certain doses it is acceptable. Your defence system is a

Well I am a Scientist and also an MD and that why i asked about where you got your information as to make a blanket claim that your bodys defence system will go into survival mode when you ingest a poison as that is simply not true. As I said we have been using Sodium Nitrite in Medicine both for Vasodilation and also in cyanide poisoning cases for a long time. I think you need to be carefull about "quoting"information of a medical nature when you dont fully understand it. I think thats where confusion can set in for people and misinterpretation and sometimes that can lead to some pretty awfull mistakes being made when people believe what they are reading, particularly so when this is a suicide forum and people will be using this forum to gather information about how much of a certain drug to take etc etc .
Cutting and pasting in information you have seen about a Poison, writing things in bold and underlining them for effect, using quotation marks, saying "the concrete answer is" may work for some people that are desperate and looking for answers. The judicious use of formatting to divert a persons attention to things of importance or to give text meaning does influence people. The "Its just Basic Science and Phsiology" advice you gave me would not have got any of us through our first year in Med school Im afraid. And regards using Stans Guide as a reference, unless I knew him or knew of his work or that he is a published author or at the very least co-author of a publication in a journal of similar quality to BMJ then I would not reference him.
Im only interested in getting facts out there. At the bottom of your post, it seems you are wanting to educate me when you say "Remember the dose makes the poison" An adage that was intended to indicate what is the most basic principle of toxicology that "All things are poison, and nothing is without poison; the dosage alone makes it so a thing is not a poison" often condenced to "The dose makes the poison" credited to Paracelsus. You also said that "presumably" the doses used for Vasodilation are much lower than those used as a suicide method" The doses of Sodium Nitrite we typically use (to reduce systolic blood pressure/reduce levels of oxidative stress) is around 15 mg/kg/day, while this administration is over the course of a day, Im sure i dont need to do the calculations for you to see that this still represents a significant quantity of Sodium Nitrite and not much lower as you assumed. Also with regards to Cyanide Poisoning , we use DBL™ Sodium Nitrite Injection as the antidote to cyanide. In an adult the usual dose administered would be 300 mg (10 mL of a 3% solution) administered intravenously at a rate of 75 to150 mg/min. Sodium thiosulfate is typically administered immediately following the sodium nitrite dosage, so the 10ml dose you see is only Sodium Nitrite alone.

Please Im asking that you treat all Medical information with the sensitivity and accuracy that it deserves. It is clear from what you have said that you do not know what you are saying about Sodium Nitrite, its actions & interactions & interactions with other medications, Its formulations, its chemistry how it is metabolised in the body, what it interacts with, its pharmacodynamic properties, pharmacokinetic protperties. People are very suggestable and when they are desperate they lap up this kind of information. Because it sounds so technical to them they think that the person writing it must know what theyre talking about and so they believe it, hook line and sinker. Please just think about this when you go to post more information about medications or drugs. You cant just make blanket statements like you did.

I clearly stated in my response and/or in posts elsewhere that I'm not a scientist, chemist or healthcare professional.

Are you suggesting that the body does not reflexively vomit to expel poisons when they are detected in the stomach?

In regards to SN as a cyanide antidote, I was very clear that I did not understand exactly how the life-threatening qualities of SN were avoided. I stated:

Once the cyanide is rendered harmless, I don't know whether the patient then needs to be treated with methylene blue to reverse the other life-threatening effects of the SN. Or whether the sequential use of sodium thiosulfate addresses this. Or whether all of the SN given is already used up in binding with the cyanide, and so there is no unused SN present to cause any life-threatening effects. Someone from a chemistry background will know this.

As a scientist and medical doctor, I'm sure you will be able to advise which of these scenarios is the case, or whether there is another answer.

In regards to SN as a medication for vasodilation, I clearly used the word 'presume' to show that I was making a presumption rather than speaking from any kind of experience or based on a reference. I'm not sure what your understandably greater level of knowledge on that topic is supposed to prove was wrong with my initial use of wording.

My use of the phrase 'the concrete answer' was not in regards to the pharmacology of SN, it was in response to the OP stating there was not a 'concrete answer' as to whether or not they could viably consume their SN inside non-insignificant quantities of food. I directed them to the fact that the two most definitive SN guides (The PPH written by doctors, and Stan's Guide written by a forum member) both clearly require fasting as part of the SN protocol. This response wasn't intended to suggest I had more medical knowledge than anyone else, it merely highlighted the fact that the OP clearly didn't have an understanding of what 'fasting' meant in practice, which as I explained:

Fasting means not eating, and this includes the whole timeframe ranging from hours beforehand right through to the actual moment of ingestion (and indeed the period after ingestion also).

As a scientist and medical doctor, are you suggesting that my definition of fasting is somehow incorrect?

You clearly have the knowledge and experience to elaborate on the areas I covered briefly. However, I don't see that I did anything wrong or even incorrect in covering them briefly myself, especially with the disclaimer that I'm not in any way an expert in them. You may well have a personal dislike for my tone or use of formatting in my posts, but that doesn't necessarily equate with them being technically incorrect.

My comment about the mechanism behind vomiting from SN was made to distinguish it from the opinion of the OP who incorrectly thought that this occurred due to the taste, as experienced in the tastebuds. It was in reference to the high dosage of SN when used for suicide. It was not meant to imply that any dosage of SN would necessarily cause vomiting. Because this is a suicide forum, there will be times when members (including myself) refer to things in shorthand based on the understood assumption that the context applies only to suicide scenarios. So for example, the (hypothetical) statement 'SN usually leads to death in x minutes' is understood to actually mean 'The dose recommended for suicide, being 25g of SN usually leads to death in x minutes'.

To me, and I may be mistaken, but your response seems a little pedantic and vexatious. I do concede I may have sounded slightly patronising in my earlier response to you, but that was because I had no idea you were a scientist or doctor. At the time your post seemed like an ignorant 'gotcha' attempt from someone, demonstrating a lack of understanding of basic physiology and pharmacology. Even with the further explanation of your current response, that post still seems to have these attributes.

As a scientist and doctor who presumably followed this thread from the early stages, I am unsure why you didn't use your significant experience to answer the original question from the OP. While you make reference to the consumption of SN in very small amounts of chocolate, you leave totally unanswered the significantly different suggestion of consuming SN in much larger quantities of food such as a burger or burrito. Would that not have been a better and more useful application of your skills rather than making a 'gotcha' post and then further nitpicking my tone and formatting?

Thank you for posting this. It needed to be said and said often.

In reference to which post?

I did not fully understand your goal -- are you questioning CTZ or saying SN is not poisonous? I honestly don't know.

I think their goal was mainly criticising me above all else. Per my response, I don't really feel it was warranted or deserved.
 
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L

Living sucks

Forced out of life before I wanted to leave
Mar 27, 2020
3,143
I think their goal was mainly criticising me above all else. Per my response, I don't really feel it was warranted or deserved.
I gently have to say that many people feel this way about your responses to their posts. It's not your message but how you present it. Like you're an expert and we're the idiots even with the disclaimer that you're not a medical provider or scientist. People feel Criticized, degraded, made fun of with sarcasm and graphics, insinuating stupidity. My point in this is to ask you to tread a tiny lighter as most here are at the brink of destruction.
 
autumnal

autumnal

Enlightened
Feb 4, 2020
1,950
I gently have to say that many people feel this way about your responses to their posts. It's not your message but how you present it. Like you're an expert and we're the idiots even with the disclaimer that you're not a medical provider or scientist. People feel Criticized, degraded, made fun of with sarcasm and graphics, insinuating stupidity. My point in this is to ask you to tread a tiny lighter as most here are at the brink of destruction.

Thank you for the honest feedback. None of those things were my intention, but I will take it on board.
 
Suez

Suez

Experienced
Feb 27, 2020
279
I clearly stated in my response and/or in posts elsewhere that I'm not a scientist, chemist or healthcare professional.

Are you suggesting that the body does not reflexively vomit to expel poisons when they are detected in the stomach?

In regards to SN as a cyanide antidote, I was very clear that I did not understand exactly how the life-threatening qualities of SN were avoided. I stated:

Once the cyanide is rendered harmless, I don't know whether the patient then needs to be treated with methylene blue to reverse the other life-threatening effects of the SN. Or whether the sequential use of sodium thiosulfate addresses this. Or whether all of the SN given is already used up in binding with the cyanide, and so there is no unused SN present to cause any life-threatening effects. Someone from a chemistry background will know this.

As a scientist and medical doctor, I'm sure you will be able to advise which of these scenarios is the case, or whether there is another answer.

In regards to SN as a medication for vasodilation, I clearly used the word 'presume' to show that I was making a presumption rather than speaking from any kind of experience or based on a reference. I'm not sure what your understandably greater level of knowledge on that topic is supposed to prove was wrong with my initial use of wording.

My use of the phrase 'the concrete answer' was not in regards to the pharmacology of SN, it was in response to the OP stating there was not a 'concrete answer' as to whether or not they could viably consume their SN inside non-insignificant quantities of food. I directed them to the fact that the two most definitive SN guides (The PPH written by doctors, and Stan's Guide written by a forum member) both clearly require fasting as part of the SN protocol. This response wasn't intended to suggest I had more medical knowledge than anyone else, it merely highlighted the fact that the OP clearly didn't have an understanding of what 'fasting' meant in practice, which as I explained:

Fasting means not eating, and this includes the whole timeframe ranging from hours beforehand right through to the actual moment of ingestion (and indeed the period after ingestion also).

As a scientist and medical doctor, are you suggesting that my definition of fasting is somehow incorrect?

You clearly have the knowledge and experience to elaborate on the areas I covered briefly. However, I don't see that I did anything wrong or even incorrect in covering them briefly myself, especially with the disclaimer that I'm not in any way an expert in them. You may well have a personal dislike for my tone or use of formatting in my posts, but that doesn't necessarily equate with them being technically incorrect.

My comment about the mechanism behind vomiting from SN was made to distinguish it from the opinion of the OP who incorrectly thought that this occurred due to the taste, as experienced in the tastebuds. It was in reference to the high dosage of SN when used for suicide. It was not meant to imply that any dosage of SN would necessarily cause vomiting. Because this is a suicide forum, there will be times when members (including myself) refer to things in shorthand based on the understood assumption that the context applies only to suicide scenarios. So for example, the (hypothetical) statement 'SN usually leads to death in x minutes' is understood to actually mean 'The dose recommended for suicide, being 25g of SN usually leads to death in x minutes'.

To me, and I may be mistaken, but your response seems a little pedantic and vexatious. I do concede I may have sounded slightly patronising in my earlier response to you, but that was because I had no idea you were a scientist or doctor. At the time your post seemed like an ignorant 'gotcha' attempt from someone, demonstrating a lack of understanding of basic physiology and pharmacology. Even with the further explanation of your current response, that post still seems to have these attributes.

As a scientist and doctor who presumably followed this thread from the early stages, I am unsure why you didn't use your significant experience to answer the original question from the OP. While you make reference to the consumption of SN in very small amounts of chocolate, you leave totally unanswered the significantly different suggestion of consuming SN in much larger quantities of food such as a burger or burrito. Would that not have been a better and more useful application of your skills rather than making a 'gotcha' post and then further nitpicking my tone and formatting?



In reference to which post?



I think their goal was mainly criticising me above all else. Per my response, I don't really feel it was warranted or deserved.
I dont follow you or any of your posts, so have no idea who you are or what qualifications you have or dont have. Its of no interest to me. Nor do i have any interest in "criticising" you as you suggest, I have neither the time nor the inclination to engage in childish behaviour. I responded to something i saw in your post which said as follows"

"The vomiting on ingestion of SN comes about due to the instinctive survival reaction from the body to expel poisons as detected in the stomach. It has nothing to do with our tastebuds finding the 'taste' of something pleasant or unpleasant. The vomiting from SN would occur regardless of whether SN tasted unpleasant, neutral or pleasant."

That is what I responded to and I feel I was right to respond to it in my medical opinion. I have gleened over the remainder of your post which does not seem relevant to the matter at hand which was about ensuring the accuracy of medical data remained intact as much as possible for the benefits of all who are using this forum. However, despite what I have said you still continue to ask the question as ...

"Are you suggesting that the body does not reflexively vomit to expel poisons when they are detected in the stomach? Innacurately presume

I had a look back at my post. Unfortunately what i seemed to have missed, was at the very beginning I had started to write a small excerpt about how the body defends itself against toxins, but I obviously got distracted as I started the sentence twice it seems. However, regardless of missing out this information at the beginning of my post. It really was not necessary information, in the context of my response. The answer to your question is School Biology stuff but if you want an answer specifically to that question then I will.
Our Brain has Chemoreceptor Trigger Zones (CRTs) that are responsible for receiving inputs from several different areas including the nervous system (around the gut). Nausea and vomiting are important as biological systems for drug side effects, disease co-morbidities, and defenses against food poisoning, so whenever it gets a message that something untoward like a toxin is detected it goes into defence mode and this is when the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system stimulate their responses, increasing salivation, contracting abdominal muscles...can you see where Im going with this?
 
autumnal

autumnal

Enlightened
Feb 4, 2020
1,950
I dont follow you or any of your posts, so have no idea who you are or what qualifications you have or dont have. Its of no interest to me. Nor do i have any interest in "criticising" you as you suggest, I have neither the time nor the inclination to engage in childish behaviour. I responded to something i saw in your post which said as follows"

"The vomiting on ingestion of SN comes about due to the instinctive survival reaction from the body to expel poisons as detected in the stomach. It has nothing to do with our tastebuds finding the 'taste' of something pleasant or unpleasant. The vomiting from SN would occur regardless of whether SN tasted unpleasant, neutral or pleasant."

That is what I responded to and I feel I was right to respond to it in my medical opinion. I have gleened over the remainder of your post which does not seem relevant to the matter at hand which was about ensuring the accuracy of medical data remained intact as much as possible for the benefits of all who are using this forum. However, despite what I have said you still continue to ask the question as ...

"Are you suggesting that the body does not reflexively vomit to expel poisons when they are detected in the stomach? Innacurately presume

I had a look back at my post. Unfortunately what i seemed to have missed, was at the very beginning I had started to write a small excerpt about how the body defends itself against toxins, but I obviously got distracted as I started the sentence twice it seems. However, regardless of missing out this information at the beginning of my post. It really was not necessary information, in the context of my response. The answer to your question is School Biology stuff but if you want an answer specifically to that question then I will.
Our Brain has Chemoreceptor Trigger Zones (CRTs) that are responsible for receiving inputs from several different areas including the nervous system (around the gut). Nausea and vomiting are important as biological systems for drug side effects, disease co-morbidities, and defenses against food poisoning, so whenever it gets a message that something untoward like a toxin is detected it goes into defence mode and this is when the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system stimulate their responses, increasing salivation, contracting abdominal muscles...can you see where Im going with this?

I'm sorry, I genuinely don't understand what it is from my posts you are now supposed to be arguing about?

First off, you specifically quoted and raised issue with my sentence 'Vomiting on ingestion of SN is due to instinctive survival reaction from the body to expel poisons detected in the stomach'. But in your latest post above, you seem to be agreeing with this concept, as does the post and chemoreceptor diagram from @Quarky00.

I also went to the trouble of addressing the other points you raised, which from your lack of further response I can only assume I have satisfactorily addressed unless you elaborate otherwise.
 
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Quarky00

Quarky00

Enlightened
Dec 17, 2019
1,956
That is what I responded to and I feel I was right to respond to it in my medical opinion.
What were you trying to say about vomiting poison/SN? What made you object so strongly? :heart:

You don't need to justify yourself or your credentials (it's cool) nor criticize others, and I understand frustration about inaccurate information.. just say it simply what it is you wanted :)
 
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Suez

Suez

Experienced
Feb 27, 2020
279
I'm sorry, I genuinely don't understand what it is from my posts you are now supposed to be arguing about?

First off, you specifically quoted and raised issue with my sentence 'Vomiting on ingestion of SN is due to instinctive survival reaction from the body to expel poisons detected in the stomach'. But in your latest post above, you seem to be agreeing with this concept, as does the post and chemoreceptor diagram from @Quarky00.

I also went to the trouble of addressing the other points you raised, which from your lack of further response I can only assume I have satisfactorily addressed unless you elaborate otherwise.
Ok really really simple here. You dont make a blanket statement saying that X causes Y when it doesnt always cause that. Please tell me you understand that very very simple concept. Im not going to try & explain this again, a Biology student would have got this by now, which goes to show you shouldnt cut and paste in Medical information and draw conclusions from it when your simply not capable of understanding a simple concept such as this.
 
GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
Jan 11, 2020
6,727
@Suez, I've followed all of this, and I think it would be really beneficial for the thread and for this particular discussion that's going on if you could respond to post 20. To do so would save the discussion from totally spiraling and bring much-needed clarity.
 
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Suez

Suez

Experienced
Feb 27, 2020
279
@Suez, I've followed all of this, and I think it would be really beneficial for the thread and for this particular discussion that's going on if you could respond to post 20. To do so would save the discussion from totally spiraling and bring much-needed clarity.
If I thought there would be benefit I would, but as ive seen throughout from their responses, my attempts to explain why medically this blanket statement should not have been made is only interpreted as argumentative or being mean. Furthermore,as this person is unable to understand what I thought was a relatively simple medical concept I see no point in taking this further, but Thankyou GoodPersonEffed, I always value your input.
 
GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
Jan 11, 2020
6,727
If I thought there would be benefit I would, but as ive seen throughout from their responses, my attempts to explain why medically this blanket statement should not have been made is only interpreted as argumentative or being mean. Furthermore,as this person is unable to understand what I thought was a relatively simple medical concept I see no point in taking this further, but Thankyou GoodPersonEffed, I always value your input.

Do realize that it's @Quarky00's post I'm referring to and not @autumnal's?
 
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Suez

Suez

Experienced
Feb 27, 2020
279
Do realize that it's @Quarky00's post I'm referring to and not @autumnal's?
No I didnt, sorry, I assumed it was all part of the pages upon pages of diatribe of Autumnals. In that case I am more than happy to answer @Quarky00s post, thanks for that.
 
GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
Jan 11, 2020
6,727
I'll just be direct and honest here.

I have not at all felt educated by your posts on this thread, @Suez. Your responses have demonstrated multiple evasion tactics. Folks have asked you direct and reasonable questions for the purpose of clarification and, frankly, your responses have been indirect and slippery, evasive, and even resorted to ad hominem attacks when you can't back up or further explain what you claim to know.

While you negate @autumnal's ability to comprehend biology and point out a rhetorical fallacy of logic, what really stands out is that you don't educate as would an MD and Ph.D in pharmacology. I don't think you're able to, either because you don't have such diplomas and subsequent work experience, or you lost the ability to do such work due to a brain injury. I can come up with no other reasonable explanations.

Something smells very off here, and to be frank, it's not the first time I've caught you trying to pull a fast one. Specifically, it was very recently, on my goodbye letter journaling thread, when you wrote a comment to me as if it were in your own words, but you actually plagiarized a book on narcissistic mothers I'd read only a week before. When I gently called out that I'd read it, you claimed you were quoting a letter you'd received in the past from a friend's mother, and tried in that same defensive comment to redefine for me the reality of what I experienced in reading the plagiarized text.

I say these things publicly because I am responding to what you are doing publicly. It is not my intention to be aggressive and to hurt you, but to be assertive when confronted with covertly aggressive actions. I let it slide on my thread at the time because I didn't see that it would do any good to call out the behavior, but now on this thread, your behavior has the potential to do harm with unmerited influence, and I can't stand by and be okay with it. People in general hear "MD" and place great trust, and I can't stand by and let present and future fellow members believe you just because you make education and work history claims, when your word and actions place great doubt on those claims, and therefore on the reliability of the information you share based on claims of such authority.

I acknowledge I am fallible and may be in error. I hope that is the case, and that you can demonstrate, clearly and directly, where and how I have been in error.
 
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Kyrok

Kyrok

Paragon
Nov 6, 2018
970
Staff here... I've been asked to look at this thread because it has "degenerated into ad hominem attacks."

There's a lot of great discussion, but the attacks one on another harm what otherwise is helpful content to readers. I'm keeping the thread, but closing it.

Please remember that posts don't always accurately reflect intention or sentiment. Please try to give one another the benefit of the doubt.
 
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