Story But, muh exceptions!

[TAW122]

I recalled a story of a time (several years ago, in 2018 or so) when I lived with roommates who are religious pro-lifers (disgusting) and when I had a debate with one of them on the topic of voluntary euthanasia and free will. He was against voluntary euthanasia even for severely ill people as well as terminally ill people (No surprise especially from a religious pro-lifer). I raised the point regarding 'rights' and free will, then after some points thrown back and forth, I stated well if you respected free will (like you claimed), then it wouldn't be right for others to impose "their" will on what they believe is right and moral.

(Note: The point of this story isn't "oh another religious debate versus a theist", but to illustrate how people use exceptions as justification to violate another person's rights.)

I gave an example of violating free will and he agreed that it would be wrong in just about 99% of other circumstances but not for the 1% or so. I asked him why and he mentioned "exceptions".

So long story short, he is against voluntary euthanasia, the right to die and similar concepts because it violates his (claimed objective) morals and values, then uses "exceptions" to justify it.

(On a different point, probably addressed already in another topic)
Yet another logical roadblock is they view morals and ethics to be objective rather than subjective (again, no surprise) and they simply just refuse to see reasoning and rationality, nevermind questioning or doubting their own beliefs. This is probably one of the reasons why appeal to religion is a logical fallacy.

Anyways, back to this topic. The problem with making "exceptions" like these pro-lifers claim to use is if they use that, then what is stopping others from claiming their own exceptions and imposing their will onto others? (rhetorical question btw) Also, what is stopping other religions from claiming that theirs' is right? (also rhetorical question) When there are too many exceptions, eventually (taken to the extreme) standards and baselines become irrelevant, which defeats the purpose of ever establishing a standard, a baseline, a reference point.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[achromatic]

I think that people who are against euthansia in all cases shouldn't be called pro- life, but pro- misery

 

[Seiko]

I think that people who are against euthansia in all cases shouldn't be called pro- life, but pro- misery

Pro-lifers glorify suffering as human nature. But if we're born to suffer—why not leave?

 

[Forever Sleep]

I can absolutely understand your frustration with this guy. I don't think there can be any reasoning with these types of people though. I think fundamentally- they believe that all our lives 'belong' to God (to do with whatever he sadistically pleases and we're just supposed to accept it and be 'grateful' for the experience).

We DO actually have free will to do whatever we want- but there are consequences if we break human laws and supposedly religious ones too. I suppose to legalise assisted suicide globally would be saying that it's perfectly fine to do it (which it is- to us- but not to many religions of the world).

I suppose (to him) it's a bit like saying- we should legalise murder and theft and in some cases. I know that may sound ludicrous as those are atrocities committed against other people but trying to see it the way they do- murdering oneself is still an act against God because (supposedly) he/she/it resides in all of us. I'd like to say- that's not at all my view- just the way I imagine they see it.

Interestingly though- talking about 'exceptions'- there are more 'exceptions' being permitted within mainstream religion now- women can be ordained. I'd like to hope there is greater acceptance of the gay community within religions now.

The way I see it- the Church/ religion in general is a business- it tries to hold on to power and it tries to make money. In general- people (in my mind) are becoming more hungry for freedom. Not that I know the bible that much but look at the Old Testament compared to the new. God seems to need a makeover now and again to become less of a heartless, narcissist dictator (we have enough of them in the real world). People get sick of being hemmed in by strict rules, so they turn away in droves. Sometimes, it seems to bring them back, they give religion a more accepting, welcoming face.

I think it could take decades but I do wonder if religions WILL eventually reconsider their ideas on assisted suicide as the world becomes more 'level headed' just to stay in fashion and stay relevant and people like your dogmatic friend may not grow up being ingrained with such views to begin with... We can hope.

 

[TAW122]

I think that people who are against euthansia in all cases shouldn't be called pro- life, but pro- misery

That's another name for them, yes.

I can absolutely understand your frustration with this guy. I don't think there can be any reasoning with these types of people though. I think fundamentally- they believe that all our lives 'belong' to God (to do with whatever he sadistically pleases and we're just supposed to accept it and be 'grateful' for the experience).

We DO actually have free will to do whatever we want- but there are consequences if we break human laws and supposedly religious ones too. I suppose to legalise assisted suicide globally would be saying that it's perfectly fine to do it (which it is- to us- but not to many religions of the world).

I suppose (to him) it's a bit like saying- we should legalise murder and theft and in some cases. I know that may sound ludicrous as those are atrocities committed against other people but trying to see it the way they do- murdering oneself is still an act against God because (supposedly) he/she/it resides in all of us. I'd like to say- that's not at all my view- just the way I imagine they see it.

Interestingly though- talking about 'exceptions'- there are more 'exceptions' being permitted within mainstream religion now- women can be ordained. I'd like to hope there is greater acceptance of the gay community within religions now.

The way I see it- the Church/ religion in general is a business- it tries to hold on to power and it tries to make money. In general- people (in my mind) are becoming more hungry for freedom. Not that I know the bible that much but look at the Old Testament compared to the new. God seems to need a makeover now and again to become less of a heartless, narcissist dictator (we have enough of them in the real world). People get sick of being hemmed in by strict rules, so they turn away in droves. Sometimes, it seems to bring them back, they give religion a more accepting, welcoming face.

I think it could take decades but I do wonder if religions WILL eventually reconsider their ideas on assisted suicide as the world becomes more 'level headed' just to stay in fashion and stay relevant and people like your dogmatic friend may not grow up being ingrained with such views to begin with... We can hope.

Excellent post, and yes, we all are thrust into life against our will. We had no say in being conceived and was never our decision to exist.

As for religion, I'm sure there are some religions (including ones that we never hear about or are no longer practiced as the practitioners of said religion(s) are no longer around) allow for CTB or at least doesn't outright reject it. Jainism and Buddhism (some parts of it- can't really comment on any other religion other than Christianity, especially the Western version as that is the most dominant and prominent one that I know about) are ones that come to mind.

Regarding the point about religion and the Church being a 'business', yes that is true and as we know by how businesses work, they want to generate revenue and to do so, it must attract the masses and what not. This is also one of the major turning points and allowed my skepticism and critical thinking to grow especially when I was younger and when my family went to church (not because they were religious or practiced it, but to instill 'good morals' and thinking it is a good social activity). Additionally, the atheist experience and other similar shows, videos, also helped fuel my critical thinking and reinforced my skepticism about religion. Good examples of these are women's rights, abolition of slavery, LGBTQ rights, and more; it just seemed that it wasn't religion that shaped human behavior, morals, and values, but rather what humans thought of and shaped religion to match it. Religion (before psychiatry and pseudo-science became a way to control social order) was the authority on things back in the older times, like even a century or few ago. Therefore, it makes sense to look at religion as a 'business' and businesses do whatever it takes to attract and retain customers (parishioners and followers in this case), even if it means re-interpretation of various parts, rewriting the narrative to fit the times, and so forth.

(Of course apologists will try to deny that, or twist and paraphrase it in a sense that defends their religion but that's another point altogether..)

 

[Pluto]

I wouldn't place any stock in the views of fundamentalists. Their primary aim in life is to 'get to heaven' when they die - a goal rooted in fear of hell. Their secondary aim is to have ongoing social support by strictly conforming to the views of their religious peers; this time rooted in fear of abandonment.

All of this corrupts their critical thinking skills to the extent that they are unlikely to have anything of intellectual substance to offer. Note that their 'proof' of their world-view comes from the same Bible that makes the claims in the first place (circular reasoning). Also note that these people often make exceptions when an issue affects them personally, such as a loved one being gay, a woman in the family needing an abortion, etc. What is really sad is that these people make up a huge percentage of the population and they vote.