Being suicidal as proof that we are good people

[CryWolf]

I finally joined this site after having the jarring realization that not everyone thinks of suicide. My "friends" were appalled when I casually (drunkenly) mentioned suicide and how I, like everyone else, wants to end it all in some capacity.
They treated me like a bad and selfish person for saying it, because that's how they feel about people who succeed at suicide. (I disagree, of course)
I explained that the reason I don't do it is because of the people in my life that it would hurt, but that if I had no one, I probably would. They still acted like I was a spoiled brat for admitting I would rather be dead. I argued that if anyone was a good person they would consider the possibility as we grow overpopulated and destroy the Earth's resources and the animals that live here. That all of our "human experiences and ego", even the things that we make creatively (the only things I truly love) are essentially worthless if all they do is "inspire" or entertain others in our pathetic society.
At some point I gave up socializing and none of them are my friends anymore. I've realized that they are all narcissistic, shallow, socially manipulative and lacking in empathy. The only thing they value is their ego and material goods.

It got me thinking:
Is being suicidal a symptom of empathy, being a morally "good" or advanced person and being intelligent?
Is it only viewed as selfish and stupid because the majority of people aren't?
Should we all NOT kill ourselves for the simple fact that WE might be the good in the world and it just seems like an impossible undertaking fighting the evil?

(Just thoughts for discussion and maybe a vague reason to not go through with it. I don't believe in black and white, good vs evil, or this world in general. But it is heartbreaking to be surrounded by terrible selfish people bent on world ruin and then come to this forum and hear from so many beautiful wounded souls that don't stick around. If it truly is a battle of good vs. evil. It seems like forfeiting.)

 

[gottago222]

its all subjective. i can see both sides of the argument. i do feel horrible about how i will impact my family, i cry about it everyday and will in my last moments, but my state is unliveable and ive made the decision im better off ctbing

 

[FuneralCry]

I believe that being suicidal is simply a result of not wanting to live. I'm not sure that it is proof of anything. Many of us are suicidal because life is cruel and unfair and there is so much suffering in this world. There really is nothing selfish about suicide, we all have the right to exit at a time of our own choosing. Instead, the selfish thing is expecting someone to suffer against their wishes.

 

[CryWolf]

I feel like both of the above replies are missing the point. As stated I don't think it's selfish, my "friends" were wrong. I think it is in fact, morally correct to want to commit suicide and that any friends and family that would be upset would be selfish and morally wrong as opposed to the ideology of the person who kills themselves.
Of course, being suicidal is because you want to kill yourself, lol.

I'm simply wondering if part of the difference between those who go through life experiencing the same bullshit, but would never kill themselves and those who would/do is something along the lines of having more empathy/intelligence. That maybe it's somewhat of a "special" or evolved trait in humans?

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Definitely not true for me. I'm killing myself BECAUSE I'm a terrible person who will just continue to contribute to all of society's ills by existing. I'm also selfish because rather than face my punishment in life, I'd rather just kill myself to end the suffering.

That's not to say everyone who is suicidal is evil, but certainly not every single suicidal person is guaranteed to be good either. People are more complicated than that and having the will to die just adds more layers of complexity and nuance to the morality of it all, which I guess is something humans in general have even less of a capability to deal with.

 

[CryWolf]

Definitely not true for me. I'm killing myself BECAUSE I'm a terrible person who will just continue to contribute to all of society's ills by existing. I'm also selfish because rather than face my punishment in life, I'd rather just kill myself to end the suffering.

That's not to say everyone who is suicidal is evil, but certainly not every single suicidal person is guaranteed to be good either. People are more complicated than that and having the will to die just adds more layers of complexity and nuance to the morality of it all, which I guess is something humans in general have even less of a capability to deal with.

Definitely not true for me. I'm killing myself BECAUSE I'm a terrible person who will just continue to contribute to all of society's ills by existing. I'm also selfish because rather than face my punishment in life, I'd rather just kill myself to end the suffering.

That's not to say everyone who is suicidal is evil, but certainly not every single suicidal person is guaranteed to be good either. People are more complicated than that and having the will to die just adds more layers of complexity and nuance to the morality of it all, which I guess is something humans in general have even less of a capability to deal with.

My point exactly. You want to kill yourself because you are empathetic and intelligent enough to see that your contribution to society's ills is unavoidable. Even if you were to "face your punishment in life" it would still come with a lifetime's worth of destroying the earth and adding to the ills of the world (or more than a lifetime if reproducing).
You think about these things. No matter what you have done, or how terrible you think you are, you are special compared to the billions of people who feel the same but insist on living to old age/reproducing.
You are good compared to those who don't think there is anything wrong with them or the world around them and shallowly work for their own ego.

 

[yive]

i think suicidal people are generally more sensitive than "normies", and this is the reason why they can't understand us properly. also, some people were just unlucky and at a certain stage they saw the dark side of life, which did not happen with so-called "normal" people.
[also i think it matters here for what reason a person is suicidal]

in my experience, suicidal people are definitely better than "normal" people, it seems that people who are well adapted to life really do not have much empathy. personally i would never consider well-adapted to life individual a good and moral person, natalists especially, no way.

i agree with your point that suicidal people are more empathetic/good/wise. do you know about efilism? survival game encourages psychopathy, callousness and cruelty. as you know, in this world "nice guys finish last", and that is clearly saying something

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

My point exactly. You want to kill yourself because you are empathetic and intelligent enough to see that your contribution to society's ills is unavoidable. Even if you were to "face your punishment in life" it would still come with a lifetime's worth of destroying the earth and adding to the ills of the world (or more than a lifetime if reproducing).
You think about these things. No matter what you have done, or how terrible you think you are, you are special compared to the billions of people who feel the same but insist on living to old age/reproducing.
You are good compared to those who don't think there is anything wrong with them or the world around them and shallowly work for their own ego.

Thanks, though I'm not sure I fully I agree. I don't think people would say Hitler was empathetic and intelligent for wanting to die even if it was spur-of-the-moment, which we have no way of really knowing maybe he always felt suicidal. Sorry for invoking Godwin's Law but I see myself as no better than him or anyone else. The only main difference is I have more time to plan and I'm just too lazy to act on all my genuinely terrible thoughts and beliefs. I don't feel like I'm trying to be empathetic by offing myself, just cowardly. Not cowardly enough to stop doing it though which is also why I'm selfish.

 

[aplacetogo]

Caring about other people can put you at a higher risk for being taken advantage of, which in turn can put you at a higher risk for suicidal ideation. Thus, if we restrict ourselves to looking at people who have suicidal ideation (and who have not yet chosen to die by suicide due to a sense of obligation to others), it stands to reason that we would get a more "caring" bunch than the general population. But the full spectrum of suicidal folk is likely comprised of many subtypes, some of which are a lot less "caring" than others.

However, we should be careful about labels like "good" and "bad". The fact that we associate "selfishness" with "bad" is probably a reason in itself for a lot of misery; people don't feel like they have a "right" to advocate for and take care of themselves, because it's got this "bad" association. Your former friends are a prime example of this; they didn't like the idea of you dying, so they shamed you as 'selfish' for contemplating it.

I do wish the subtypes of suicidal ideation were categorized in more detail. Because approaches that work for some subtypes really might not work for others. Most "normal" folk seem to treat it as a "one size fits all" deal. Hate getting tossed those hotline numbers.

Maybe I should quit my life in tech and do research in psychology instead so we as a society can be slightly less terrible at this.

 

[completely-done]

I'm probably just selfish. I dunno, it doesnt matter anymore I guess lol

 

[ixkitty]

Okay, so I wouldn't use my reasoning as being morally good or bad. I basically don't cope very well with life. I'm too kind, gets walked on, etc etc. I look at my wanting to CTB as an act of kindness on myself. Of course I've been told it's selfish and whatnot but in reality, it saves so much headache down the line because there will be a say someone won't be able to defend me, stand up for me, etc etc.

I guess I'll sit as an act of kindness to the world. :)

 

[CryWolf]

Thanks, though I'm not sure I fully I agree. I don't think people would say Hitler was empathetic and intelligent for wanting to die even if it was spur-of-the-moment, which we have no way of really knowing maybe he always felt suicidal. Sorry for invoking Godwin's Law but I see myself as no better than him or anyone else. The only main difference is I have more time to plan and I'm just too lazy to act on all my genuinely terrible thoughts and beliefs. I don't feel like I'm trying to be empathetic by offing myself, just cowardly. Not cowardly enough to stop doing it though which is also why I'm selfish.

You bring up a good point. Many murderers and people who lack empathy are also suicidal or commit suicide. I guess I'm projecting a bit and thinking more of most of the folks I've seen on here, who seem to be depressed and pained to the point of feeling like they have no other choice, through no real fault of their own. I wasn't considering spur-of-the-moment suicides, like to avoid capture/imprisonment or death by another's hand, due to the consequences of their own actions. (Even then though, you're right, who are we to say he wasn't depressed?)
Maybe it would be more accurate to say those who are suicidally depressed due to factors outside of themselves?
Like death by heartache from caring too much. But maybe when someone goes homicidal it's just after being pushed dangerously far after that point, making them (originally) the most empathic of all.

 

[D&D]

If anything, being suicidal, in my view, proves that we are all alone, unseen and unheard in our pain.

In all its shades of which there is an endless variety.

When traumas compound resulting in what modern world named 'depression' to medicate it accordingly, but what is, in most cases, is accumulation of trauma, grief, and loneliness ... when there is nowhere to go - we turn inwards.

 

[Susannah]

I finally joined this site after having the jarring realization that not everyone thinks of suicide. My "friends" were appalled when I casually (drunkenly) mentioned suicide and how I, like everyone else, wants to end it all in some capacity.
They treated me like a bad and selfish person for saying it, because that's how they feel about people who succeed at suicide. (I disagree, of course)
I explained that the reason I don't do it is because of the people in my life that it would hurt, but that if I had no one, I probably would. They still acted like I was a spoiled brat for admitting I would rather be dead. I argued that if anyone was a good person they would consider the possibility as we grow overpopulated and destroy the Earth's resources and the animals that live here. That all of our "human experiences and ego", even the things that we make creatively (the only things I truly love) are essentially worthless if all they do is "inspire" or entertain others in our pathetic society.
At some point I gave up socializing and none of them are my friends anymore. I've realized that they are all narcissistic, shallow, socially manipulative and lacking in empathy. The only thing they value is their ego and material goods.

It got me thinking:
Is being suicidal a symptom of empathy, being a morally "good" or advanced person and being intelligent?
Is it only viewed as selfish and stupid because the majority of people aren't?
Should we all NOT kill ourselves for the simple fact that WE might be the good in the world and it just seems like an impossible undertaking fighting the evil?

(Just thoughts for discussion and maybe a vague reason to not go through with it. I don't believe in black and white, good vs evil, or this world in general. But it is heartbreaking to be surrounded by terrible selfish people bent on world ruin and then come to this forum and hear from so many beautiful wounded souls that don't stick around. If it truly is a battle of good vs. evil. It seems like forfeiting.)

I can relate to how you feel/ think.

I feel I'm too empathic and kind to find joy in a society of greed and selfishness.
I have always been interested in philosophy, psychology, ethics and morality.

When I read about the great philosophers; Socrates, Plato (the cave parables) and Aristotle, I began to see the world and its surroundings in a different way. I'm not religious, but I believe in good and evil, and something Inbetween.

We have moved far from "golden means", unity and cooperation to create common values and norms. I look at my world with a certain contempt now. The focus on individualism has created a society of winners and losers, sharp elbows and cynical choices. I do not feel that I fit into this race to be better, stronger and richer than others.

From experience, I have always lost by following laws and rules, reporting injustice, and following basic ethical and moral principles of society. It has made me understand that no one really cares about acting in accordance with the basic principles of right and wrong.

Then there is no point in anything anymore. The very foundation of a democratic society is that we have a functioning and reliable judicial system. Even here in Norway, the rule of law is just a hoax. I have been subjected to several abuses (violence and sexual violence) from people whom the police regard as dangerous. Yet they are not judged. I'm believed, but nothing more happens. If, on the other hand, I had a lot of money, knew the right people (corruption), I would at least get some kind of redress in the form of, for example, compensation.

I have realized that the rule of law does not apply to everyone. I live in a rich country, but without financial means (after a serious disabling accident), I do not have a chance to pay for lawyers, for example. My kindest friend ever killed himself 6y ago. People without empathy rarely ctb.

 

[LastFlowers]

I finally joined this site after having the jarring realization that not everyone thinks of suicide. My "friends" were appalled when I casually (drunkenly) mentioned suicide and how I, like everyone else, wants to end it all in some capacity.
They treated me like a bad and selfish person for saying it, because that's how they feel about people who succeed at suicide. (I disagree, of course)
I explained that the reason I don't do it is because of the people in my life that it would hurt, but that if I had no one, I probably would. They still acted like I was a spoiled brat for admitting I would rather be dead. I argued that if anyone was a good person they would consider the possibility as we grow overpopulated and destroy the Earth's resources and the animals that live here. That all of our "human experiences and ego", even the things that we make creatively (the only things I truly love) are essentially worthless if all they do is "inspire" or entertain others in our pathetic society.
At some point I gave up socializing and none of them are my friends anymore. I've realized that they are all narcissistic, shallow, socially manipulative and lacking in empathy. The only thing they value is their ego and material goods.

It got me thinking:
Is being suicidal a symptom of empathy, being a morally "good" or advanced person and being intelligent?
Is it only viewed as selfish and stupid because the majority of people aren't?
Should we all NOT kill ourselves for the simple fact that WE might be the good in the world and it just seems like an impossible undertaking fighting the evil?

(Just thoughts for discussion and maybe a vague reason to not go through with it. I don't believe in black and white, good vs evil, or this world in general. But it is heartbreaking to be surrounded by terrible selfish people bent on world ruin and then come to this forum and hear from so many beautiful wounded souls that don't stick around. If it truly is a battle of good vs. evil. It seems like forfeiting.)

There could be some truth to that deduction, but I think we all know that there's plenty of suicidal people who are far from decent, and may even align more closely with the adjectives used for your ex-friend group.

I think it's possible that those who suffer and/or those who are most indignant regarding the injustices of the world would be more prone to suicidality, as society (aka individuals) make it very difficult to live or thrive in this world, or to uphold one's sense of justice/fight for equality without encountering a journey fraught with obstacles and intensified suffering, etc.
Life is harder for those who give a damn, and for those who have no choice but to give one.
Once your eyes are opened, it is difficult to force them shut.
And in this way, you are correct, we lose some of the best human beings, who could have changed this world for the better-had they been permitted to-by those who have selfishly kept their eyes closed, because they have no reason to look beyond their own fortune.

Poor example, but two people could absolutely adore a film, conclude that it is a masterpiece, and then when finally conversing, realize that they came to their final conclusion by diametrically opposed trains of thought..almost to the point they start arguing with each other and become hostile.
I believe that people can end up deciding on suicide as the right course of action by similarly opposing means.

I feel like both of the above replies are missing the point. As stated I don't think it's selfish, my "friends" were wrong. I think it is in fact, morally correct to want to commit suicide and that any friends and family that would be upset would be selfish and morally wrong as opposed to the ideology of the person who kills themselves.
Of course, being suicidal is because you want to kill yourself, lol.

I'm simply wondering if part of the difference between those who go through life experiencing the same bullshit, but would never kill themselves and those who would/do is something along the lines of having more empathy/intelligence. That maybe it's somewhat of a "special" or evolved trait in humans?

I understand what you're trying to say (I think?) but I would be cautious when using terms such as "special" or "intelligent", these are things that many who would never consider suicide, hide behind to stomp on the likes of others and feel superior.

Though a lack of intelligence could be a factor (in those against the right to die), I think it's more likely to be willful ignorance, even if someone had the "smarts" to understand and cognitively empathize with a topic or point of suffering, doesn't mean they will, sometimes over a trite reason as simple as they don't want to "feel bad" and ruin their day (so it also comes down to ego and selfishness).

If it was an "evolved trait", then it certainly isn't doing us any good, as we're all sooner dead than putting ourselves to use.
But maybe that is because the current status quo and upheld constructs will not allow for us to flourish, our weakness can never become a strength until certain things are abolished, and even then, that would require obtaining the power and influence to abolish them.
Not to mention many people are suicidal from things like pure, unadulterated physical pain, which sometimes can't be helped no matter how many people try to find a solution or give their care and attention (though professionals and loved ones alike can certainly do a better job at being attentive and less apathetic in those situations).

On a side note, I rarely find that there are actually two people who experience the exact same detriments and life story, where one chooses suicide and the other lives a happy life. Even if it seems that way on the surface, there are usually striking differences that we are not accounting for.

 

[dreadpirateroberts69]

I tend to believe suicidal people are not morally superior to "normies", in general. But your ex-friends sounds super shitty, it's dumb to demonize people who are suicidal