whitefeather

whitefeather

Thank the gods for Death
Apr 23, 2020
518
July 29, 2022

Be careful who you tell

Be careful who you tell is the message from Exit's long-time Melbourne Chapter Coordinator, Chris Lovelock.

After long and careful consideration and forethought Chris had made an Exit Plan. Chris told a 'close friend' about this plan. Unfortunately, the so-called 'close friend' then told the Police.

Here is what happened next to Chris in July 2022.

Exit-Chapter-Coordinators-2019-700x364.jpeg

Chris Lovelock (front left) with fellow Exit Chapter Coordinators, Australia 2019

CHRIS' STORY

July 11 Monday 2022

At [a regular] current affairs Zoom class, [my friend] Jeff Hall announced that he would not be available for the next four weeks and suggested that Helen and myself might be prepared to stand in for him.

Not wishing to disclose my reasons for declining the invitation in front of the whole class, I merely said that I could not do it the next week.

July 12 Tuesday

Jeff emailed the class telling them that I would do the next but one week and also a fortnight later. I had not agreed to that. I emailed Jeff saying that I would be unavailable at any time in the future and believing that he was entitled to an explanation, I told him that I was intending to end my life on the evening of July 14.

July 13 Wednesday

At 0850 I received a phone call from Jeff saying "What's going on", and I explained fully but briefly. Jeff said that he would "have to" report my proposed action to "The Authorities".

I believe that he mentioned the police. I told him that I did not want him to do that and the conversation was terminated.

At about 1030 two police officers from the Boronia station arrived. I was expecting a visit from my daughter Alana around that time and met all three at my front door.

There was a brief discussion between the four of us and then SC Ray Rinderhagen asked if he could speak with Alana privately.

As I am unable to stand for any length of time I suggested that I go inside the house and talk to PC Danielle Day.

I then went inside with PC Day where we had a brief amicable discussion and were shortly joined by SC Rinderhagen and Alana.

The discussion continued amicably except that I told them that I was not prepared to go anywhere with them unless they could produce an arrest warrant.

It was then explained to me that they did not intend to arrest me but they had some sort of a document relating to the Mental Health Act which gave them the authority to detain me, using force if necessary, and transport me to a hospital of their choice where my mental health would be assessed by a suitably qualified person.

I think it was at that stage that I was told that an ambulance was on its way.

I pointed out that there was a chronic shortage of ambulances and I did not want to make that situation worse and would prefer to be transported in their divvy wagon, but when it was explained that the divvy wagon was frequently used by some less than salubrious detainees, I opted for the ambulance.

I don't believe that I really had a choice and I realise that they were acting in my best interests, at least as far as transport was concerned, and when the ambulance arrived shortly thereafter, I entered it without further objection.

I arrived at Maroondah Hospital somewhere around 1130 where I was briefly transferred from the ambulance stretcher to a hospital wheel-chair and left in the ED corridor with both ambulance officers and both police officers standing guard, and told I would be assessed by a psychiatrist when one became available, with at least one person (a drug user who was "smoking" a vape) ahead of me in the queue.

Mental-Health-Act.jpeg


After a couple of hours the ambulance officers left and I was transferred to a cubicle, still within the ED corridor but without the wheelchair.

At about 1600, the person that I was told was ahead of me in the queue walked past, her visit to the psychiatrist obviously complete.

About this time I was transferred to another cubicle outside the corridor. An hour later I was interviewed by a "mental health professional" but not a psychiatrist, and told that I was to be transferred to Box Hill.

This happened about 2330 in another ambulance.

July 14 Thursday

On arrival at Box Hill I spent half an hour in the ED then taken to the psychiatric ward 1 East room 12 where I was relieved of my belt (but not my shoe laces) and given a "pair" of pyjamas consisting of a top too small to wear and bottoms at least 12 inches too long. I slept until 0700.

At about 1100 I was interviewed/assessed by psychiatrist Chamath Rangoda and Jessica ? who introduced herself as "almost qualified as a gerontologist".

I had a reasonable discussion (mainly with Cham) lasting over an hour, during which time he verbally acknowledged that in his opinion I was not suffering from depression or anxiety but told me that I would be held for up to 28 days for treatment for my mental illness because it would be impractical for me to receive such treatment outside the hospital.

Cham told me that I was entitled to ask for a second opinion which I then did.

At about 1400 I was given a copy of form MHA110 Temporary Treatment Order which included Cham's observation "You are at risk of suicide with a clear plan and intent. You are wanting to leave hospital despite the risks."

This document also included a statement to the effect that "….. the person has a mental illness…… " but did not specify what that mental illness might be.

I was also given a nine page document "Temporary Treatment Order – Statement of Rights" and another form with which to lodge an appeal to the Mental Health Tribunal. I immediately lodged an appeal.

The Statement of Rights advised that "A psychiatrist will also look at your advance statement if you have one" but at no time was an advance statement EVER mentioned.

Later that day, or possibly the following day, I asked Jessica what was my mental illness, to which she replied that it was "Adjustment Disorder".

Upon my enquiring as to when I might expect to see my "second opinion" I was told that it would be "as soon as possible".

July 15 Friday

No sign of my second opinion.

July 16 Saturday

Still no sign of my second opinion.

About 1600 I reported that I was cold and shaking and was given a blanket and another covid test. I had previously (don't remember when) been given a couple of tests which were negative. I was shaking when I went to bed to sleep. I requested some form of medication to help me sleep but the request was ignored.

July 17 Sunday

When I woke about 0700 I was told that my latest covid test was positive. So much for the hospital's "duty of care".

At 1330 Alana arrived to deliver some "goodies" and sundry other items including nail clippers and electric shaver which were both promptly declared contraband.

At 2115 I was transferred to the covid ward and an hour later a guard arrived, taking up residence in my bedside chair.

His name was Kurkura and despite the fact that I experienced language difficulties, he insisted on bashing my ear about how lucky I was that someone had intervened to save my life

July 18 Monday

First thing this morning Kurkura was replaced by nursing aide Peter, a vastly different kettle of fish.

At 1100 I was examined (chest/lungs) by two doctors, and questioned. Where am I? What year is it? What month?

At 1200 I saw my "second opinion", psychologist Jo (Jonathon) Storke plus two others. Jo agreed that I have no mental illness and said that he would confer further with Cham.

wp4119562-700x473.jpg

The infamous One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
An hour or so after seeing Jo, Ben Taylor (he had been taking notes during Jo's interview) brought me form MHA112 Revocation of Temporary Treatment Order or Treatment Order with Jo's comments "You do not have features of a significant mental illness at the current time.

While you still consider ending your life as an option, you do not have an immediate plan and you are willing to discuss community support."

I was free to go but was required to wait for "patient transport" (not an ambulance). Expected about 1700, then 1800, 1830, 1900, then not before midnight.

Eventually I was told that I could arrange my own transport, as I had suggested that I do some five hours earlier, and Alana arrived 2115 and I was taken home.

Summary

  1. This little exercise resulted in two non-essential ambulance trips (2 x 2 paramedics plus equipment) at a time when other people were waiting on urgent medical attention.
  2. The services of two police officers who were tied up (idle) for about six hours, then another two following a change of shift. They could have been out chasing criminals.
  3. I occupied a bed in the psychiatric ward for five days.
  4. I occupied a bed in the covid ward for one day plus.
  5. I "utilised" the services of two psychiatrists, sundry students/interns, and innumerable trained nursing and other ancillary staff.
  6. I received no treatment for my "mental illness" other than an unopened box of Mirtanza [anti-depressent] tablets given to me (with an invoice) on my release.
  7. I acquired COVID-19, despite my maximum and recommended four inoculations.
  8. During the course of my six day incarceration, I freely discussed my thoughts on matters such as
a. Why was I brought here as I had not committed any crime?

b. Why was I being held?

To both of these questions I was given the vague answer to the effect that "they" had a duty of care to me.

At no time, with the exception of the "guard" that I had to suffer on Sunday night, did I encounter anyone who disagreed with my basic philosophy that a rational adult person had the right to determine their own future.

There is not doubt that this is a shocking story and an awful experience for any 80 year old man of sound mind to have to go through.

Exit will now explore the avenues open for redress and seek a legal opinion that can serve as a warning to others should they find themselves in Chris' shoes.

To comment on Chris' story, join the discussion at the
Peaceful Pill Forums

Beyon-Bedlam-Museum-700x294.jpg

Bedlam, founded in 1237 as England's first mental asylum – Now Bethlam Museum of the Mind, London
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H

Hope:-)

Enlightened
Jul 3, 2022
1,120
They banged me up in a psych ward for a year.

Each time they kept putting me on the same medication I said was making things worse . They later admitted that it was not a good medication for me...after 16 yrs of misdiagnosis and 1 whole year involuntarily on a ward . Screw them.x

I'm telling no one.
 
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FuneralCry

FuneralCry

Just wanting some peace
Sep 24, 2020
38,279
It really is a bad idea in my opinion to tell others about ctb plans. After all, we live in a world where suicide is so stigmatised and our right to die is not respected. It sounds so horrifying ending up in a psych ward. It would be ideal if we had the option of euthanasia and then we could tell others in advance about our plans and they would have no choice but to accept it. It's so unfair how people are denied that option and they are expected to just suffer.
 
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Salvation_

Salvation_

"Please, finish my story."
Nov 25, 2020
234
It's a bad idea. The person you tell will be looking over your shoulder for the next number of years. Then theyll feel tremendous guilt if you CTB while they're determined to save you.
 
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F

Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
9,420
Oh my God! Thanks for sharing this. It's really scary the way you can be 'detained' for wanting to harm yourself. That's always really hit home to me- attempting to murder yourself is almost treated the same as attempting to murder someone else- ok- not prison but you are being detained against your will... Maybe for not as long but I guess that depends on how well you can lie and say you no longer feel suicidal to get yourself released.

Surely, if my body belongs to me, I can do what I like with it? The only justification for detaining you for hurting your own body is if that body belonged to someone/something else. Which makes me think we must belong to the state (in their eyes anyhow). Our lives do- we have to abide by the law or be punished but they seem to act like our bodies do too.

Poor guy- going through all that AND contracting covid. Wonder- if he had succumbed to it and died- whether the hospital could be accused of manslaughter.
 
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SofterSoftest

SofterSoftest

Student
Dec 30, 2021
186
This is so awful - my heart goes out to this man. Thank you so much for sharing.

At the same time, unfortunately we do live in a world where we can't really share our CTB plans concretely with anyone we love because we risk putting them in trouble with the law (often in very serious ways). I've told both my SO and my childhood best friend that I have thought extensively about CTB in the past, and my best friend in particular knows that there is a very real likelihood I might end my life. That being said, I've also told my best friend I'd never 'announce' my CTB plans to her, because that would be a very serious legal liability to her, and I've asked her to do her best to prepare for my CTB 'at some point in the future.'

This is all terrible of course. I really do wish we had the capacity to have meaningful end of life conversations with people we loved before CTB, but we all know that that's not possible right now.
 
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Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
9,420
It really is a bad idea in my opinion to tell others about ctb plans. After all, we live in a world where suicide is so stigmatised and our right to die is not respected. It sounds so horrifying ending up in a psych ward. It would be ideal if we had the option of euthanasia and then we could tell others in advance about our plans and they would have no choice but to accept it. It's so unfair how people are denied that option and they are expected to just suffer.
Actually, I started looking into Euthanasia clinics- in the desperate hope that they might consider me but I know they won't. Nothing terminal (yet) and no medically documented history of depression.

What did strike me though is that you need someone with you (to identify you- alive and then dead I believe). It kind of got me thinking- if I were ever eligible- who could I ask to go with me? Telling people your plans is one thing but asking someone to go along with you is another. I have one suicidal friend who I thought would be the best candidate (hypothetically) but I think even they would probably be reluctant.
 
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Againstthewind

Againstthewind

Victory
Jul 10, 2022
230
I'm glad you posted this, I could relate to this clearly and felt myself getting angry and rolling my eyes as I read on. I, as much as others have probably been in a situation like this before, let me give you some friendly advice.

NEVER

EVER

EVER

EVER
Tell ANYONE about any plans you have. You'll end up worse off in the long run. As much as it may boil inside you for a long time and you finally achieve the strength to tell someone, and you think, they're going to lovingly embrace me with open arms and they are going to say 'oh my goodness, I'm so sorry, what can I do to help.' LOL my ass will they.
We always get told time and time again, reach out, talk to someone, share how you feel - that has got to be the biggest load of horseshit repetitive line I've heard now, over and over again. In a weird twist of fate in todays world, what you think will help you, wont even come close to what you need,, These services think that they need to take you to a 'place of safety', when really they would love to strap on a straight jacket go home to Linda and say 'hey honey I just saved a life today' - no you didn't you bloody moron.
Depending on what country you are in of course, it highlights the services inability to really help someone in a place of crisis, and this is why we are losing people daily, because there interventions do not work and make people worse, and then on the flip side people knowing this alternative wont help them and so they really are out of options to be helped.

Nothings really to help the people in need, its just to put you in a place that releases them/authorities etc all responsibility so they are not liable.
 
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TheLastK

TheLastK

You can just call me K
Aug 6, 2022
109
We always get told time and time again, reach out, talk to someone, share how you feel - that has got to be the biggest load of horseshit repetitive line I've heard now, over and over again. In a weird twist of fate in todays world, what you think will help you, wont even come close to what you need,, These services think that they need to take you to a 'place of safety', when really they would love to strap on a straight jacket go home to Linda and say 'hey honey I just saved a life today' - no you didn't you bloody moron.
Depending on what country you are in of course, it highlights the services inability to really help someone in a place of crisis, and this is why we are losing people daily, because there interventions do not work and make people worse, and then on the flip side people knowing this alternative wont help them and so they really are out of options to be helped.
This is exactly what I have been thinking for so long. People are always saying how if you feel anything bad just reach out to people and they will be willing to help, at worst its like you said you'll be put into psych involuntarily or maybe get the police called on you, but there's also the looks of pity, disgust and fear from peers, including those that also suffer from mental health issues. Even mentioning that you have problems, in my experience, makes others uncomfortable despite how much they had said before about reach out this and here to listen that. So yeah, telling people is a bad idea, they will either distance themselves or inform some sort of authority like you said to make it feel like they saved a life.
 
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whitefeather

whitefeather

Thank the gods for Death
Apr 23, 2020
518
And the hospital even gave them COVID while forced-hospitalized ! Wonder - could they sue the system ? "LIE-ABLE" / liable. "LIE-ABILITY"/LIE-ABILITY...
 
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Ethereal Knight

Ethereal Knight

Seja um bom soldado, morra onde você caiu.
Jan 10, 2022
817
indeed, never tell anyone anything. and lie to people if they put you against the wall or become invasive. in these cases, lying is moral, right and beautiful, because you're literally just protecting yourself.

also, learn the basics of digital safety. if you're not careful, they may be spying on you digitally.
 
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Euthanza

Euthanza

Self Righteous Suicide
Jun 9, 2022
1,431
It turns out like bullied gay people when they are coming out of the closet, right? It comes with a life time bad consequences that public will dehumanized the gay person; One thing to notice is that gay people keep coming out over time! I'm not suggesting suicidal person to tell our CTB plan, but I think we should talk about suicide (there's a difference) more often in public and even louder until they accept us just like they accept gayness out of DSMx, may be until the stigma wears off suicide.

Being suicidal is not a mental illness and it needs no prevention based on denials, instead of acceptance and facilitation.
 
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Ethereal Knight

Ethereal Knight

Seja um bom soldado, morra onde você caiu.
Jan 10, 2022
817
@euthanza it may take many many centuries for a significant change in society to happen, though.

I personally think this wouldn't happen, because it's against the interest of societies. like Rajneesh (Osho) said:

"No society wants you to become wise: it is against the investment of all societies. If people are wise they cannot be exploited. If they are intelligent they cannot be subjugated, they cannot be forced into a mechanical life, to live like robots. They will assert themselves —they will assert their individuality. They will have the fragrance of rebellion around them; they will want to live in freedom.

Freedom comes with wisdom, intrinsically — they are inseparable — and no society wants people to be free. The communist society, the fascist society, the capitalist society, the Hindu, the Mohammedan, the Christian — no society likes people to use their own intelligence, because the moment they start using their intelligence, they become dangerous, dangerous to the establishment, dangerous to the people who are in power, dangerous to the "haves"; dangerous to all kinds of oppression, exploitation, suppression; dangerous to the churches, dangerous to the states, dangerous to the nations."
 
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Cerulea

Cerulea

Student
Sep 19, 2022
100
@euthanza it may take many many centuries for a significant change in society to happen, though.

I personally think this wouldn't happen, because it's against the interest of societies. like Rajneesh (Osho) said:

"No society wants you to become wise: it is against the investment of all societies. If people are wise they cannot be exploited. If they are intelligent they cannot be subjugated, they cannot be forced into a mechanical life, to live like robots. They will assert themselves —they will assert their individuality. They will have the fragrance of rebellion around them; they will want to live in freedom.

Freedom comes with wisdom, intrinsically — they are inseparable — and no society wants people to be free. The communist society, the fascist society, the capitalist society, the Hindu, the Mohammedan, the Christian — no society likes people to use their own intelligence, because the moment they start using their intelligence, they become dangerous, dangerous to the establishment, dangerous to the people who are in power, dangerous to the "haves"; dangerous to all kinds of oppression, exploitation, suppression; dangerous to the churches, dangerous to the states, dangerous to the nations."

Exactly this. Industry doesn't have laborers to exploit when there aren't enough of them staying alive to perpetuate the system. I've heard from many people that feeling like a wage slave, a cog in the machine, is a large reason they decide to CTB. Understandably so. When I talk about this concept with people I know, the response is usually, "That's such a depressing concept." Yeah, my dude, it absolutely is. That's why people rebel against the idea of living a life for the benefit of capitalism or labor.

If we were all living in an accepting and liberated society, we could freely discuss these things with anyone. We could take safe and comfortable action whenever we decided to, for whatever reason we decided to.

We also have a lot of people around us who love us, or value our lives in some way, and they're deeply attached to ensuring we stay. There's a conditioning to believe that being alive is the right call. They're entitled to believe that, to feel it, but I can't get behind it. I know some people will be hurt when I'm gone. My decision isn't rooted in that knowledge. It is unfortunate and I don't like it, but I did not independently design the systems that prevent me from being open and honest during my experience.

The account of that man who shared a piece of himself with someone who disrespected his wishes is heart breaking. I understand both sides. But, my god, what a traumatic ordeal to go through. What a lonely and helpless experience that must have been.
 
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makethepainstop

makethepainstop

Visionary
Sep 16, 2022
2,032
The X-files got it right "Trust no one." As I would put it Why should I comprise myself, to someone who might make use of the information!
 
Hollowillow

Hollowillow

The only place that allows negative feelings.
Aug 7, 2022
1,515
I scream my plans to everyone, cops are sent dozens of time, I had to demand to be kept in the psych ward (to flee the toxin in my home that hurt me enough to be suicidal). After speding 5 nights hearing the employee laughed, even when I cried, refusing to hear us... I became severely agoraphobic & suicidal. Made 5 "tests" attempts.

It would have been such a delicious irony to lock him for his safety but kill him with covid. But the flu is a fucking joke compared to real diseases...

At 80 you deserve rest. Nature will probably call you soon. I hope with a heart attack in your sleep...
 
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blue_muse

blue_muse

Mage
Jan 31, 2021
552
I'm not afraid of involuntary hospitalisation; one health professional once let the mask slip in telling me, "I don't see the point in detaining you, because your problems will still be there.". This happened after explaining my health problems. Not that I plan on shouting about my suicidality from the rooftops either!

I'm attention seeking or manipulative if I tell anyone and the reasons why. Or, I'm distant and weird when I keep it to myself.
 
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hamvil

hamvil

Wizard
Aug 29, 2022
652
Terrible, in which country did this happen? Is it the same also in other countries?