Asian beauty standards are worshipping white features

[nex]

There may be very well universal features like golden ratio and facial symmetry and such, I just fail to see how European people somehow generally fit better into that than other peoples.

As for European sculptures: Greek sculptures worshipped the body and actually there's nothing that's genuinely white/European about them. They could have been African just as well. Roman sculptures were different, usually they were mostly about the face of a certain person, much less than about a beauty ideal. They tended to be portraits of actual people, rather than ideals of human beauty like Greek statues were.

 

[Snake of Eden]

There may be very well universal features like golden ratio and facial symmetry and such, I just fail to see how European people somehow generally fit better into that than other peoples.

As for European sculptures: Greek sculptures worshipped the body and actually there's nothing that's genuinely white/European about them. They could have been African just as well. Roman sculptures were different, usually they were mostly about the face of a certain person, much less than about a beauty ideal. They tended to be portraits of actual people, rather than ideals of human beauty like Greek statues were.

You would like to tell me that there were other races of people other than europeans who had bodies like the greeks and romans in sculptures and frescos. You said it yourself that there were modelled after real people rather than a idyllic imaginative portrayl to what should be like. This is more evidence that europeans (at least to when it comes to male physqiues) had the most appealing characteristics that there is. It was much more natural and prevalent to find a european person with those beauty ideals (male physique again than any other races). personally aside from europeans only American native populations showed to possess such a standard like europeans to male physics. Arabs, Indians and East asians sure didnt. Maybe africans but from what i observed from uncontcted tribes in Africa they dont have such physique nor uncontacted tribes in the amazon.

Edit: it is so obvious that male physique ideals mostly are prevalent in europeans. Do arabs have that as prelavent? No not even close. Do indians have that? Dont even get me started. Do asians have that? Not really. I am not trying to be an ass here but I am also not trying to be conformist just to be politically correct and sound neutral because I dont think it is the reality of this subject is being discussed with honesty even though I realize it is uncomfortable discussion but fuck someone has to say it.

P.S. i am not a white people worshipper. I think they suck MAJORLY in myriad of other ways more than other races and their beauty creates more problems for them than it solves. I am just saying it how I see it when it comes to the physical appearance

 

[nex]

You would like to tell me that there were other races of people other than europeans who had bodies like the greeks and romans in sculptures and frescos.

No, I would not like to tell you that. What I'm telling you is that those Greek sculptures are a fantasy that is as far removed from Europeans as it is from Africans.

You said it yourself that there were modelled after real people rather than a idyllic imaginative portrayl to what should be like. This is more evidence that europeans (at least to when it comes to male physqiues) had the most appealing characteristics that there is.

I said that ROMAN sculptures were mostly modelled after real-world people. Greek sculptures were nothing like that, they were power fantasies similar to the artwork of a Manowar album. There is no indication or evidence whatsoever that links Greek sculptures to real life, European or otherwise.

 

[little helpers]

I think they looked much better before the enhancement surgeries tbh

I've seen like aaaaaall the stuff you posted on this thread before this one so I'm gonna need amnesty from comment wars lol.

you can like people of whichever type of appearance. truly doesn't matter. I'm secretly envious of redheads. dyed my own hair once and oh man you wanna see a pool of fake blood in the bathtub. I know I was being unrealistic with myself. but that's whatever. I wanted to be a carrot top for at least a month lol.

I assume the reason you find the Eurocentric standards more attractive, is becuz you've been primed to view them as "normal". a better way to put this, is "normalized". Japanese and Chinese people used to literally freak out at Caucasian appearances. everyone pick the kind of faces they've been conditioned to.

but I do want to reiterate, that beauty standards are a social creation. what one finds socially acceptable, and socially attractive. it's heavily dictated by status. and it's very biological. privilege of social resources dictates reproductive success. chubby was good becuz they were rich enough to feast and indulge. skinny became the new rule as fast food is cheap and thus, "trash". it takes a lot to "eat healthy" these days. all of that. the White standard itself goes through constant changes and re-definitions.

Edit: okay, fuck me. I definitely misread your comment cuz, em, you were basically preaching Eurocentrism throughout your other comments. 'kay, misread it. now I honestly don't know where you were going with this. though I don't give a shit which you think is better. unless you're running a beauty salon on SS now lol.

 

[Snake of Eden]

No, I would not like to tell you that. What I'm telling you is that those Greek sculptures are a fantasy that is as far removed from Europeans as it is from Africans.


I said that ROMAN sculptures were mostly modelled after real-world people. Greek sculptures were nothing like that, they were power fantasies similar to the artwork of a Manowar album. There is no indication or evidence whatsoever that links Greek sculptures to real life, European or otherwise.

I totally disagree with that point of view. There doesnt need to be evidence that those depictions were modelled on their respective real life people. All cultures depcited their people as accurately as they cared to depict them. Why is it that romans, europeans were so adept at sculpting and painting in such an aesthetically appealing manner more than other civilizations? The reason Is because they knew they looked good and they saw that as worthy of immortalizing it through art. They were in love with those ideals because it existed irl. Other civilizations, not so much, why? Because they didnt look that good. As simple as that

 

[Snake of Eden]

chubby was good becuz they were rich enough to feast and indulge. skinny became the new rule as fast food is cheap and thus, "trash". it takes a lot to "eat healthy" these days. all of that. the White standard itself goes through constant changes and re-definitions.

Yes maybe when it comes to female standard of beauty that has some truth to it even though i think it is a bit exaggerated to say overweight women at some point were the beauty ideal. forgive me for Being crass but when it comes to men. It is really really hard for me to imagine at any point in history where fat men were objects of lust and sexual fantasies. Male beauty is pretty much fixed throughout history. Maybe only very recently that women started to gravitate towards fem looking guys but even that sounds like a niche thing

 

[DeutscheKartoffel]

you know what kickstarted Korea's plastic surgery industry?
View attachment 83130
View attachment 83126

thank you for coming to little helpers' history lesson.

To the American troops?
Aren't they supposed to be stationed in Japan then. Lol

———————————————————————————————-
I despise plastic surgery immensely.
Babies gonna return to "day one."

Unless they've thought about fixing that also.
But then again if someone from the other race is attracted to this sets of appearances,
why not just date within their own race in the first place and they'd still be better off.

Plastic surgery is literally self-hatred.
They should have never promoted that.

 

[nex]

I totally disagree with that point of view. There doesnt need to be evidence that those depictions were modelled on their respective real life people. All cultures depcited their people as accurately as they cared to depict them. Why is it that romans, europeans were so adept at sculpting and painting in such an aesthetically appealing manner more than other civilizations? The reason Is because they knew they looked good and they saw that as worthy of immortalizing it through art. They were in love with those ideals because it existed irl. Other civilizations, not so much, why? Because they didnt look that good. As simple as that

Well, glad to hear that there doesn't need to be evidence. Why is it that the artists of Manowar albums depict men in such a glorious manner? Has to be because men are that glorious, right? Certainly has nothing to do with fans being fucking nerds living out fantasies. Same for Greek statues. The way Greek statues look says absolutely fucking nothing about how people looked. It's a fucking fantasy.

 

[motel rooms]

forgive me for Being crass but when it comes to men. It is really really hard for me to imagine at any point in history where fat men were objects of lust and sexual fantasies. Male beauty is pretty much fixed throughout history. Maybe only very recently that women started to gravitate towards fem looking guys but even that sounds like a niche thing

I'm not a smarmy, overly PC white guy who is saying this just to kiss non-European ass: I honestly don't find Asians' eyes & Africans' facial features unattractive. What's unattractive about big kissable lips? I confess that I'm pretty superficial when it comes to looks & that I've never had a one-night stand with a guy whose face I found unappealing. I'm only into other "stereotypically masculine" men & I need them to be (reasonably) fit, but I don't really care how tall they are & how big their junk is. I live in a big sleazy city & I've had sex with guys from all over Europe & North America, Africans, Arabs, Latinos, Pakistanis & East Asians. I definitely don't think that tall, blond, blue-eyed men are more handsome than everyone else.

Same for Greek statues. The way Greek statues look says absolutely fucking nothing about how people looked. It's a fucking fantasy.

It's true that the Greeks were all about idealization & perfect proportions, it was a cultural thing/(homoerotic) fantasy. I don't know if folks from other parts of the world are aware of this, but people from Mediterranean countries tend not to have perfect little straight noses.

 

[little helpers]

Yes maybe when it comes to female standard of beauty that has some truth to it even though i think it is a bit exaggerated to say overweight women at some point were the beauty ideal. forgive me for Being crass but when it comes to men. It is really really hard for me to imagine at any point in history where fat men were objects of lust and sexual fantasies. Male beauty is pretty much fixed throughout history. Maybe only very recently that women started to gravitate towards fem looking guys but even that sounds like a niche thing

so we're talking 'bout sexual dimorphism here. and true, when we average out individual preferences, the general consensus is the more dimorphic the better, as is driven by reproduction. *however*, baby face Asians (like me, lol) simply do not reach that level of divergence. it's all about finding the hottest person *you* can meet. thus geographically isolated communities have, for the longest time, developed their own standards of beauty. *plus*, making babies is no longer a big deal nowadays. newborns' survival was a tough problem in historical times that you need to put a lot of care into choosing your sexual partner. now that's not our current situation.

there's just *so much* anthropology going into this. marriage, sex, romance, child-raising, each of these things have existed and/or *not* existed very differently throughout time. you can read it up if you hope to gain some insight. though one thing is for sure. diversity of the gene pool is so very important. and with that comes diversified appeals and preferences.

and while body fat in amab people is associated with certain degrees of feminization, I can tell you which fat men are really sought after:

the gay bear :)

 

[motel rooms]

I can tell you which fat men are really sought after:
the gay bear :)

Hey! Some of us get our backs & butts shaved each week & look like this:

But these boys have all the fun:

 

[Snake of Eden]

Hey! Some of us get our backs & butts shaved each week & look like this:

But these boys have all the fun:

Jesus christ

 

[little helpers]

Jesus christ

exactly what I was gonna say

 

[Amumu]

I totally disagree with that point of view. There doesnt need to be evidence that those depictions were modelled on their respective real life people. All cultures depcited their people as accurately as they cared to depict them. Why is it that romans, europeans were so adept at sculpting and painting in such an aesthetically appealing manner more than other civilizations? The reason Is because they knew they looked good and they saw that as worthy of immortalizing it through art. They were in love with those ideals because it existed irl. Other civilizations, not so much, why? Because they didnt look that good. As simple as that

I'm going to disagree with that since sculpting was exclusively a Greek and Roman fetish at the time, Scandinavians and other "barbarians" weren't really fans of that. As for painting, well it was definitely more developed in Ancient Greece or in the Roman Empire than in Northern Europe.

Blue eyes were considered ridiculous for men in the Roman Empire...

Some features seem to be universally considered attractive (symmetry, big muscles for men, curves for women), others seem to be purely cultural.

And I'll point it out again, Asian features or blond hair are not evolutionary assets so they only appeared because of genetic mutations that LOTS of people found very attractive.

 

[blueclover_.]

It's pretty prominent but I'm sure asian people are aware of that beauty standard we put ourselves in, it's just that they don't see anything wrong with it. It's been the status quo.

Just the amount of skin whitening products advertised in asian countries is abysmal, even glutathione pills to achieve that fair white skin. (Sometimes even through IV)

You can't blame them tho. It's become an ingrained complex.

"If you have white skin, you're rich. "
"If you have dark skin, you do manual labor. You're poor."

You can trace back from olden times how asian people are shamed for their appearance much like black people. there's the media also.

It's a whole can of worms really.

.

This. My OWN MOTHER told me to buy whitening skin products. I was like hell nah i like my golden skin, probably because i grew up watching progressive american cartoons (hence why i'm a left-leaning centrist now). My friends from the village though, all of them were obsessed to be fair-skinned. They grew up listening to their parents that their NATURAL skin color is ugly. Luckily i have eurocentric features, so my skin color was 'pardoned' and i was considered attractive. Only the rich kids could afford to buy all that whitening lotions, so there is a clear correlation between wealth and beauty here. It is sad that people are pressured to look a certain way in order to be considered worthy of positive attention.

Do you honestly think that's an objective fact? Is it possible that you've never heard that beauty is in the eye of the beholder?

Beauty standards are always changing. This was the feminine beauty ideal in Europe in the 17th century (fleshiness & cellulite, baby!) :

That's a bit of an exaggeration , but there's definitely a significant number of European men who find petite Asian women with cute little noses very attractive.

Universally white people are considered more attractive than any other races. Many Asians practically worship white people, and most of them experience the Halo Effect just because of the white skin alone. Asia is pretty big so that is like 30% of the world. For Africa and the Middle East, the beauty standards vary more between regions and tribes.

 

[Aurora Vanderlux]

I feel that the standards of Latin beauty are worse, since they make women want to become a very plastic person

 

[blueclover_.]

m Asian but I'm also heavily Americanized so I wonder if my opinion is ultimately invalid. I think where I live though, it's the opposite of what you've described though since many people I know (at least among the straight men) prefer Asian women way more than Caucasian ones to the point where some Californian women are doing the reverse of what you mentioned and are trying to apply Eastern beauty practices to themselves. I guess what this ultimately means is that attraction can be mainly about whatever is exotic and thus intriguing.

Dude, you live in California, the most progressive state in the US. Asian Americans are culturally different than mainland Koreans, Indonesians, Filipinos, etc. Beauty standards are ingrained in culture, your culture heavily influence your perception of things (unless you actively take a stance against the cultural doctrines and become a rebel to society). I agree with all of your previous statements though.

I've seen like aaaaaall the stuff you posted on this thread before this one so I'm gonna need amnesty from comment wars lol.

you can like people of whichever type of appearance. truly doesn't matter. I'm secretly envious of redheads. dyed my own hair once and oh man you wanna see a pool of fake blood in the bathtub. I know I was being unrealistic with myself. but that's whatever. I wanted to be a carrot top for at least a month lol.

I assume the reason you find the Eurocentric standards more attractive, is becuz you've been primed to view them as "normal". a better way to put this, is "normalized". Japanese and Chinese people used to literally freak out at Caucasian appearances. everyone pick the kind of faces they've been conditioned to.

but I do want to reiterate, that beauty standards are a social creation. what one finds socially acceptable, and socially attractive. it's heavily dictated by status. and it's very biological. privilege of social resources dictates reproductive success. chubby was good becuz they were rich enough to feast and indulge. skinny became the new rule as fast food is cheap and thus, "trash". it takes a lot to "eat healthy" these days. all of that. the White standard itself goes through constant changes and re-definitions.

Edit: okay, fuck me. I definitely misread your comment cuz, em, you were basically preaching Eurocentrism throughout your other comments. 'kay, misread it. now I honestly don't know where you were going with this. though I don't give a shit which you think is better. unless you're running a beauty salon on SS now lol.

Honestly i was kinda scared about comment wars like this, one dude snaps and boom everyone's throwing personal insults on each other. I would like to see rational arguments about de-establishing the Eurocentrism around the world, not people being rude to each other. I was gonna post this on twitter but that would've been a horrible idea, lol. And i totally agree with your opinion. Social values are always changing, adapting to its new correlations and meanings while being ingrained to people's minds through the culture and the media.

 

[Snake of Eden]

Honestly i was kinda scared about comment wars like this, one dude snaps and boom everyone's throwing personal insults on each other. I would like to see rational arguments about de-establishing the Eurocentrism around the world, not people being rude to each other. I was gonna post this on twitter but that would've been a horrible idea, lol. And i totally agree with your opinion. Social values are always changing, adapting to its new correlations and meanings while ingrained to the people through the culture and the media.

You have every right to be upset about derailing your own thread by other users back and forth but There hasnt been any throwing personal insults at all here. It was rational argument and those can get heated too as in all debates and arguments

 

[blueclover_.]

You have every right to be upset about derailing your own thread by other users back and forth but There hasnt been any throwing personal insults at all here. It was rational argument and those can get heated too as in all debates and arguments

Yes, fortunately, but i've noticed some comments were disagreeing in a... passionate manner. It could've led to some unnecessary dispute over some unrelated things to the topic, but fortunately nothing happened. I've been through this situation many times but i knew SS was a different place, people actually think here. That's why i decided to not open this forum for two days to mentally prepare myself and see what happens in the comment section, lol. As i've expected everyone managed to keep their calm and were putting their inputs into the discussion, which i greatly appreciate! :>

 

[zzdam]

First of all, please read the whole post before accusing me of being every -ist there is. If you agree or disagree, feel free to leave some comments below so that we can have a polite and fruitful discussion about this topic.

Beauty standards were established in every country for different reasons. Historically, Asian countries have always deemed fair skin as a symbol of high status and wealth. But because of the European colonization, Asian countries even have more reasons now to justify their obsession with unnaturally fair skin tone in this modern age.

What attributes that exactly fit into the Asian beauty standards?

Fair skin, straight hair, large eyes, pointed/sharp noses, prominent chin, high cheekbones, and deep-socket/deep-set eyes, etc. Northern Europeans would easily fit into the Asian beauty standards since birth because those features are written on their DNAs.

Do Asians themselves consciously want to be European/White? No.

Asian people have been conditioned by the Asian & Pop Cultures to think that changing their ethnic features is an acceptable behavior in order to achieve upper social mobility within the Asian community itself. Asians don't want to change their features to look Europeans, Asians want to change their features in order to fit into the Asian beauty standards which in itself is heavily influenced by Eurocentric beauty standards. In other words, Asians don't even realize that their beauty standards are literally putting European features on a pedestal due to its long historical socio-cultural dynamics.

Why do you think so many people in South Korea want to get double-eyelids surgery despite having beautiful monolids? Because the Korean beauty standards itself promotes European features such as large blue eyes and blonde hair. South Korean people however do not realize that, in their minds they are only following SK's beauty standards. Historically Asian countries were heavily influenced by European colonization, and one of those impacts is the subtle white supremacy that is still prevalent 70+ years later in Asian beauty standards today. This happens all across East & Southeast Asia, while countries in other parts of Asia are not so heavily impacted socio-cultural wise.

Take a look at my country, Indonesia. Most Indonesians love white people despite everyone knowing that the Dutch exploited our lands for 350 years. We have a popular saying of 'Marrying a white person so that we can fix our offsprings'. Indonesians also put half-white kids on a pedestal as they are deemed more attractive and wealthier. If someone says, "You look kind of European," then that's literally a compliment.

The obsession of white people is crazy and saddening at the same time. Why do we have to look like Europeans in order to be 'beautiful'? Are our ancestors not beautiful enough? Yet this is the world we live in and not much will change during my life span. I simply wish people would start to admit that the Asian beauty standards are literally worshipping white features, and we should start to change the perception that a beautiful face must look a certain way. That way, we can slowly START making a change so that people will begin to appreciate and love their ethnic features more.

TL;DR: Asian beauty standards are putting white features on a pedestal. Asians themselves don't realize that by changing their ethnic features, they are unconsciously submitting themselves to the post-colonialism white supremacy by enabling the Eurocentric beauty standards to keep influencing Asian beauty standards. We need to start appreciating our ethnic features (e.g. brown skin, slanted eyes, curly hair, etc.) as just as beautiful as white features (e.g. blonde hair, fair skin, blue eyes, etc.). There should be nothing that is deemed inherently ugly about having a dark skin or slanted eyes. ALL FACIAL FEATURES ARE BEAUTIFUL NO MATTER WHAT THE BEAUTY STANDARDS ARE TRYING TELL YOU HOW 'BEAUTY' IS SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE. PERIOD.

Thank you for reading and have a nice day

Looking ambiguous and atypical from your ethnicity is attractive in any part of the world, tbh.

 

[blueclover_.]

I'm not a smarmy, overly PC white guy who is saying this just to kiss non-European ass: I honestly don't find Asians' eyes & Africans' facial features unattractive. What's unattractive about big kissable lips? I confess that I'm pretty superficial when it comes to looks & that I've never had a one-night stand with a guy whose face I found unappealing. I'm only into other "stereotypically masculine" men & I need them to be (reasonably) fit, but I don't really care how tall they are & how big their junk is. I live in a big sleazy city & I've had sex with guys from all over Europe & North America, Africans, Arabs, Latinos, Pakistanis & East Asians. I definitely don't think that tall, blond, blue-eyed men are more handsome than everyone else.



It's true that the Greeks were all about idealization & perfect proportions, it was a cultural thing/(homoerotic) fantasy. I don't know if folks from other parts of the world are aware of this, but people from Mediterranean countries tend not to have perfect little straight noses.

Good for you, hotelbeneathground. That is called personal preferences and i am glad that you recognize your preferences in that regard.

However, beauty standards are basically set up by the majority. You love all kinds of facial features and i think that is amazing that you managed to avoid the culturally-ingrained doctrine of eurocentric beauty standards. Unfortunately, you are the minority here. Most people (globally) still certainly prefer the eurocentric features over other ethnic features. That should not have been the case, but due to our history of European Colonization, Eurocentrism was bound to happen.

That is why i made this thread, to try to convince more people that we should and we can to de-establish Eurocentrism around the world. Maybe a few generations later, there won't be skin whitening or tanning products anymore. Everyone is content with what they have, and that is ultimately the purpose of this post.

 

[Snake of Eden]

Good for you, hotelbeneathground. That is called personal preferences and i am glad that you recognize your preferences in that regard.

However, beauty standards are basically set up by the majority. You love all kinds of facial features and i think that is amazing that you managed to avoid the culturally-ingrained doctrine of eurocentric beauty standards. Unfortunately, you are the minority here. Most people (globally) still certainly prefer the eurocentric features over other ethnic features. That should not have been the case, but due to our history of European Colonization, Eurocentrism was bound to happen.

That is why i made this thread, to try to convince more people that we should and we can to de-establish Eurocentrism around the world. Maybe a few generations later, there won't be skin whitening or tanning products anymore. Everyone is content with what they have, and that is ultimately the purpose of this post.

You are another one who agree with me that eurocentric looks are preferred by majority. I would disagree on the claim that it is exclusively due to european colonization, eurocentrism. I think even without those things as a global society the majority of people will innately find european features as more aesthetically appealing. I think this is just how it is. I dont want to continue this as an argument. Just making my point clear again because most people who disagreed with me on this thread denied totally that there is such a thing as majority of people preferring eurocentric features which to me is a bizzare assertion when it clearly is not the case at all

 

[blueclover_.]

Looking ambiguous and atypical from your ethnicity is attractive in any part of the world, tbh.

Not really. If i had curly hair or slanted eyes, i would've been considered ugly by Indonesians. Only white features can save a dark skinned person here. In my classmates eyes, i was basically like the half-white kids they've always idiolized on TV. Half-black kids are discriminated heavily.

So looking racially ambiguous wasn't what saved me from bullying and prejudice in this country, but having particulary eurocentric features was. Indonesians only like white features, even they hate east asian features such as slanted eyes. We literally had a genocide of Chinese Indonesians (1998) during Soeharto's regime.

They are literally obsessed with bules (white tourists). Black bules however are only seen as cool because of rap (which is also only cool because of the Western Media and our former dictator Soeharto encouraged pro-American propagandas during the Cold War), they are still considered ugly just because they have dark skin, curly hair, wide noses, etc.

Americans may love being racially ambiguous (due to its own history of the New World), but for Indonesians and most Asians, they just can't escape Eurocentric beauty standards due to history.

You are another one who agree with me that eurocentric looks are preferred by majority. I would disagree on the claim that it is exclusively due to european colonization, eurocentrism. I think even without those things as a global society the majority of people will innately find european features as more aesthetically appealing. I think this is just how it is. I dont want to continue this as an argument. Just making my point clear again because most people who disagreed with me on this thread denied totally that there is such a thing as majority of people preferring eurocentric features which to me is a bizzare assertion when it clearly is not the case at all

I totally agree with you. There is a biological reason for that. But for the sake of avoiding conflicts, i'll just say that there is nothing wrong with acknowledging how fucked up humans are that our own brains discriminate its kind just for survival. All of this pain and discrimination of being alive, ultimately, is for power and survival. A meaningless, non-stop survival through procreation and suffering. No one is to blame. Nature has always been cruel. It is for the greater good that humans realize this, and START making changes for that so we can live harmoniously side by side.

America is literally a migrant country. lol
People need to understand if u have a passport, you are a citizen.

Fr. The Founding Fathers were Europeans

 

[nex]

You are another one who agree with me that eurocentric looks are preferred by majority. I would disagree on the claim that it is exclusively due to european colonization, eurocentrism. I think even without those things as a global society the majority of people will innately find european features as more aesthetically appealing.

But how do you know that? The world IS eurocentric, and we don't have another parallel world to compare to. If we had one that's Southeast Asia- or Africa-centric, and people would still prefer European features, that might be compelling evidence. But as a matter of fact, we don't have any such comparison.

I think this is just how it is. I dont want to continue this as an argument. Just making my point clear again because most people who disagreed with me on this thread denied totally that there is such a thing as majority of people preferring eurocentric features which to me is a bizzare assertion when it clearly is not the case at all

Sorry if you don't want to keep this argument going, but nobody denies that the majority prefers eurocentric features. Again, that is the expected outcome in a eurocentric world. My point is that you simply can't prove that eurocentric beauty standards would hold up in a non-eurocentric world, because we don't have one.

 

[Snake of Eden]

But how do you know that? The world IS eurocentric, and we don't have another parallel world to compare to. If we had one that's Southeast Asia- or Africa-centric, and people would still prefer European features, that might be compelling evidence. But as a matter of fact, we don't have any such comparison.


Sorry if you don't want to keep this argument going, but nobody denies that the majority prefers eurocentric features. Again, that is the expected outcome in a eurocentric world. My point is that you simply can't prove that eurocentric beauty standards would hold up in a non-eurocentric world, because we don't have one.

I have nothing further to add. I laid out my full argument already. I dont deny eurocenterism has some influence in shaping majority of people's taste. But I also think majority of people would innately find europeans features as more attractive. There maybe no conclusive way to prove that like you said we live in a eurocentric world and not in an alternative timeline where that didnt happen. Thats my view and shared by another member on this thread.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Dude, you live in California, the most progressive state in the US. Asian Americans are culturally different than mainland Koreans, Indonesians, Filipinos, etc. Beauty standards are ingrained in culture, your culture heavily influence your perception of things (unless you actively take a stance against the cultural doctrines and become a rebel to society). I agree with all of your previous statements though.

Well yeah I was trying to say that where I am from it's the complete reverse but still inherently problematic in its own way plus at least from what I can tell Asian men still aren't very sought after here unless they've got Kpop singer looks.

 

[blueclover_.]

But how do you know that? The world IS eurocentric, and we don't have another parallel world to compare to. If we had one that's Southeast Asia- or Africa-centric, and people would still prefer European features, that might be compelling evidence. But as a matter of fact, we don't have any such comparison.

But we do have the biological argument for that, though.

Humans perceive dark-colored objects as dangerous. Most types of feces, dirt, poisons, dangerous animals, etc. are dark-colored. Therefore, preferring light-colored objects is an evolutionary advantage in order to avoid getting killed off by those dark-colored dangers.

This then applies to how humans see other humans as well. The ape brain sees the melanins on a black person's body as dirt/poison/etc. which could endanger a human's life. Compared to a white person which we can see clearly whether they are clean or covered in mud. So as an evolutionary advantage, we will perceive the white person as a safer subject because we can determine for sure whether that white person is clean or not. In the old times, this was crucial because a simple infection could kill you (no antibiotics).

If you were born into a black family, eventually you will start to register seeing dark-skinned people as normal and it will eventually overrun your brain's primal fear of potential diseases by camouflaged-mud on a dark skinned person. The primal fear of diseases is nothing compared to the developed normalcy and familiarity of the kid's surroundings. Nurture plays a huge factor here.

There will always be exceptions, but most people do not realize that this is very normal and very common amongst animals.

 

[nex]

If I'm reading you right, you're arguing that beauty ideals are connected to evolutionary advantage. And I agree with that.

Now, what is an evolutionary advantage in Africa or anywhere else with massive sun light? Dark skin.

Not sure where that faeces/mud comparison comes from. People can tell if you're covered in faeces no matter your colour, and I wonder how that would even be a thing because it's an unlikely scenario. Why would you walk around covered in mud and faeces? As for dangerous/poisonous animals and plants, they tend to have bright colours, like a striking red or green or yellow. Animals that want to signal you they're poisonous like to have striking bright colours so you don't miss it.

 

[user_name_here]

If you were born into a black family, eventually you will start to register seeing dark-skinned people as normal and it will eventually overrun your brain's primal fear of potential diseases by camouflaged-mud on a dark skinned person. The primal fear of diseases is nothing compared to the developed normalcy and familiarity of the kid's surroundings. Nurture plays a huge factor here.

There will always be exceptions, but most people do not realize that this is very normal and very common amongst animals.

This is incorrect.
If you're born into a community, black or multicultural, you will see dark skinned people as normal from birth. you won't know any different. It will be normal to you, no adjustment needed.

If you're born into a closed off community, then your born into the skewed environment that'll enforce these biases.

If I'm reading you right, you're arguing that beauty ideals are connected to evolutionary advantage. And I agree with that.

Now, what is an evolutionary advantage in Africa or anywhere else with massive sun light? Dark skin.

Not sure where that faeces/mud comparison comes from. People can tell if you're covered in faeces no matter your colour, and I wonder how that would even be a thing because it's an unlikely scenario. Why would you walk around covered in mud and faeces? As for dangerous/poisonous animals and plants, they tend to have bright colours, like a striking red or green or yellow. Animals that want to signal you they're poisonous like to have striking bright colours so you don't miss it.

all of this.

also, white skin is associated with ghosts and demons in African, West Indian, Asian folklore too.
But people grow up from dumb scared kids to adults. so, yeah.

 

[little helpers]

Americans may love being racially ambiguous (due to its own history of the New World), but for Indonesians and most Asians, they just can't escape Eurocentric beauty standards due to history.

not gonna lie, "racially ambiguous" in America still means Eurocentric features, just with a spice of "coolness" (at its core, appropriation) from people racialized as other. for instance, 4c hair has never been considered attractive by the White public. in fact they practically say those with this hair type should go "fix" their hair. extra bit of sexism here, 4c hair doesn't grow super long, which can very well be another reason it's shitted on. now, I do be talking about women here, and it's rational for me to do so *becuz* that's where objectification happens most violently. the lives of people who been reduced into pure objects of desire, is where desire can be studied most effectively.

look, "racially ambiguous" basically means this: dark straight(ened) hair or at most a 2c (like some French stuff), light-skinned (aka. White-passing), Eurocentric facial features (think Iman, who married to David Bowie). score above a certain point in these three fields total, and that little bit of difference now becomes exotic enough for White desire, but still homogeneous enough for White acceptance.

fashion/design is one huge appropriation machine. looks, garments, makeup, are all markers for meaning. meaning taken from certain groups of people, who have their own stories, and own cultural creations, whether it's jeans and Dr. Martens, or Southwest print. taken without a compensation at most times, such that it is seized. this I'm going off a tangent a little bit, I just wanna get it out, basically.

and be it Asians or Asian Americans, the common denominator has always been the same thing: colonization.

Fr. The Founding Fathers were Europeans

Fr. the slave traders were Europeans

If I'm reading you right, you're arguing that beauty ideals are connected to evolutionary advantage. And I agree with that.

Now, what is an evolutionary advantage in Africa or anywhere else with massive sun light? Dark skin.

Not sure where that faeces/mud comparison comes from. People can tell if you're covered in faeces no matter your colour, and I wonder how that would even be a thing because it's an unlikely scenario. Why would you walk around covered in mud and faeces? As for dangerous/poisonous animals and plants, they tend to have bright colours, like a striking red or green or yellow. Animals that want to signal you they're poisonous like to have striking bright colours so you don't miss it.

^ this. people who claim to know "basic biology" frequently don't know what basic biology is.