article on capital punishment death using nembutal

[Aap]

@TAW122 since you mention logic, I'll just point this simple fact out for those that use the "life in prison is a much worse punishment" argument - people don't cut deals or plea bargain for the death penalty. In the overwhelming majority of cases, the guilty view life in prison as a better outcome than the death penalty.

@justpeachy - prepare for be flamed for defending the 6 month rule. What many on the site who are upset by this do not always appreciate is that in many cases, it is not a case of the 6 month rule preventing the implementation of an anytime rule. Rather, the real option is 6 months vs no physician assisted suicide. I realize this is country specific, but in most countries or states, the idea of anytime PAS isn't palatable at the moment, even if 6 months is.

 

[Life sucks]

I mean just because you have a mental illness that still does not take away your right to make choices. And at least in the united states if you are deemed criminally insane you do not get the death penalty for one, and two you don't even go to jail. Mental illness is a vast thing. Using it as an excuse for shitty choices is inherently dangerous. I am not sure if you live in the US but I do and my most recent job (I have a Masters in psychology therefore I know more than enough about mental illness) part of it was completing reports for criminally insane patients to determine if they were indeed criminally insane after an investigation. Anyone that had legitimate mental illness that caused their crime was often released aside from capital murder and in that case they went to the state psych facility vs prison. I put many people in psych facilities vs jail or prison that had mental health issues that contributed to their crimes. But, that only goes so far mental health is vast, so someone that has depression or anxiety has mental illness as per the american psychological association among many other international associations does that mean they don't have free will because they didn't have free will you have their depression/anxiety they didn't have free will to kill their wife or husband by slitting their throat as they are sleeping, or drowning their 2 day old baby in the bath (father did this, not the mother so cannot use PPD as an excuse) because "it was too loud.". Both these people had mild signs of anxiety and depression in cases I worked. Therefore in your reasoning they had no free will? That's baffling and research disproves that. I do agree some cases of moderate to severe mental illness particularly with psychosis related disorders that you would not have free will but you say mental illness as a whole is largely not accurate.

I didn't say that mental illnesses is the sole reason and clearly stated it as an example.

Yea there is no true free will. Humans like to overestimate themselves while they are nothing against the numerous amount 8f external (like environment) and internal (like genetics) factors. Crimes happens all the time and the pain is unerasable, death penalty is proven to not help at all. Humans wants to blame someone and take revenge instead of understanding the whole problem, all in order to continue their loop and continue deluding themselves. Additionally, no matter what the crime is, states and any entity has no right to decide the life/death of someone and that contradicts pro-choice. States usually have a criminal history as well and they enforce reproduction which is hypocritical.

But yea, lets just ignore that life and biology is shit and continue killing each other in order to glorify life and the species and continue playing this shitty game. Preventing the crime is way better than revenge and while there are multiple ways to do that, there is always one true solution that prevents crimes, suffering and everything else by stopping reproduction.

Reproduction is the real cause of creating a criminal, it creates the possibility of making a criminal then ignores the prevention of that possibility.

For suicidals, its better if people understand that life/death is a personal choice. Everyone came to this life without their choice so they should at least choose when to die.

 

[ceelestial]

That's not what I'm talking about.

ok so what are you talking about?

 

[k75]

If it makes you feel better, those prisoners might not be having such an easy time dying...

State executioners: untrained, incompetent, and "complete idiots"

All the problems with lethal injection drugs lately have overshadowed a bigger problem: the people who administer them.

www.motherjones.com

 

[Aap]

This NPR article is riddled with half truths to downright, 100% bullshit. Don't believe me? Read the quote where it says paralytics are never, ever used in a hospital. This is 100%, absolutely not true. They are used tens of thousands of times daily in almost every surgery performed around the world and are on the WHO list of essential medications.

This is the most concrete fact I can point to that this is a biased, political, and inaccurate piece. Also, it covers the three drug protocol, which is increasingly being replaced by one or two drug protocols that use neither paralytics or KCl.

 

[k75]

Regardless, it still doesn't seem like there's a lot of pleasant N executions going on. I see nothing to be jealous of, which was my point.

Quite a few states do a 3 drug protocol, and Nebraska became the first to try a 4 drug with fentanyl. And it's an easy to verify fact that there's a huge problem with drug companies refusing to sell for lethal injection use and the drugs stockpiled expiring and not being able to be replaced. And it's true that there have been a lot of botched executions.

Lethal injection protocols - Lethal Injection Information Center

 

[LifeIsAChore11]

Regardless, it still doesn't seem like there's a lot of pleasant N executions going on. I see nothing to be jealous of, which was my point.

Quite a few states do a 3 drug protocol, and Nebraska became the first to try a 4 drug with fentanyl. And it's an easy to verify fact that there's a huge problem with drug companies refusing to sell for lethal injection use and the drugs stockpiled expiring and not being able to be replaced. And it's true that there have been a lot of botched executions.

Lethal injection protocols - Lethal Injection Information Center

Are these cocktails given all at once? I wonder if there's anywhere we could find the dosages of each as they are used.

 

[Aap]

Yes, most (over half) of the states without a moratorium either use pentobarbital exclusively or have it available as an option. Many of the others have legislation or discussion to move to it, with some states considering nitrogen. The supply issue is largely bullshit, though both sides love to wring their hands about it. While certain drugs may be difficult to obtain, this is absolutely not even close to the limiting factor in executions. Said another way, if the supply of pentobarbital was unlimited, the number of executions would not skyrocket.

@LifeIsAChore11, do your own homework. It isn't terribly difficult to find the protocols with a little effort. I would ask, what on earth would be the point? It's not like most of these medications lend themselves to being self administered or administered while conscious...

 

[k75]

Yes, most (over half) of the states without a moratorium either use pentobarbital exclusively or have it available as an option. Many of the others have legislation or discussion to move to it, with some states considering nitrogen. The supply issue is largely bullshit, though both sides love to wring their hands about it. While certain drugs may be difficult to obtain, this is absolutely not even close to the limiting factor in executions. Said another way, if the supply of pentobarbital was unlimited, the number of executions would not skyrocket.

@LifeIsAChore11, do your own homework. It isn't terribly difficult to find the protocols with a little effort. I would ask, what on earth would be the point? It's not like most of these medications lend themselves to being self administered or administered while conscious...

I feel like you're trying to create an argument where there isn't one. Everyone was crying because deathrow inmates get N and we don't, so I said it's maybe not the awesome thing it sounds like. I was not even very serious here, more just making an offhand observation based on things I'd seen before. Either way, my care cup is pretty empty.

I never said anything about the number of executions being limited or not. The only thing I sorta pointed out is states are using expired or expiring drugs because of shortages. Several major pharmaceutical companies have issued public statements saying they do not support lethal injections, making it hard to source. Nothing political or vague here.

 

[Aap]

My only real argument is against the NPR story/article linked, and I point out one glaring untruth in the article, which is itself biased and political.

While I have heard the rhetoric about the difficulty obtaining drugs for lethal injection (and they are), my point is that they aren't remotely close to the limiting factor in determining the number of executions. The left loves to harp on the supposed complete lack of lethal injection drugs to scare the public that lethal injection is inhumane with suspect drugs. The right loves to harp on this to scare the public that more criminals need to be executed.

 

[justpeachy]

@TAW122 since you mention logic, I'll just point this simple fact out for those that use the "life in prison is a much worse punishment" argument - people don't cut deals or plea bargain for the death penalty. In the overwhelming majority of cases, the guilty view life in prison as a better outcome than the death penalty.

@justpeachy - prepare for be flamed for defending the 6 month rule. What many on the site who are upset by this do not always appreciate is that in many cases, it is not a case of the 6 month rule preventing the implementation of an anytime rule. Rather, the real option is 6 months vs no physician assisted suicide. I realize this is country specific, but in most countries or states, the idea of anytime PAS isn't palatable at the moment, even if 6 months is.

The reality is that most states and countries don't even OFFER this so instead of complaining about every aspect of it, we should be somewhat grateful that countries are taking this very positive step forward. There are always going to be rules and regulations, that's just life. People can flame away, until they work the medical field and/or are a doctor that is prescribing life ending drugs for these patients their bitching about what "they" would do is irrelevant. They should go back to school and become a MD or lobby for different rules vs flaming people in a forum if they really want to see a change but nobody wants to hear that. Shrugs.

Regardless, it still doesn't seem like there's a lot of pleasant N executions going on. I see nothing to be jealous of, which was my point.

Quite a few states do a 3 drug protocol, and Nebraska became the first to try a 4 drug with fentanyl. And it's an easy to verify fact that there's a huge problem with drug companies refusing to sell for lethal injection use and the drugs stockpiled expiring and not being able to be replaced. And it's true that there have been a lot of botched executions.

Lethal injection protocols - Lethal Injection Information Center

For one, the N isn't the only drug given. Lethal injection is a cocktail of 3 or more drugs. In the botched executions there had been glaring mistakes and it was not the N in the majority of the cases that caused these things.

This NPR article is riddled with half truths to downright, 100% bullshit. Don't believe me? Read the quote where it says paralytics are never, ever used in a hospital. This is 100%, absolutely not true. They are used tens of thousands of times daily in almost every surgery performed around the world and are on the WHO list of essential medications.

This is the most concrete fact I can point to that this is a biased, political, and inaccurate piece. Also, it covers the three drug protocol, which is increasingly being replaced by one or two drug protocols that use neither paralytics or KCl.

Lol they're used almost hourly in just the ER, ICU, or surgical floors for intubation. NPR is a joke as are most American (i am from the US) mainstream news stations. They are all so politically biased these days that it's a joke. I finally found a much smaller news station that I really enjoy that is much more independent.

 

[k75]

For one, the N isn't the only drug given. Lethal injection is a cocktail of 3 or more drugs. In the botched executions there had been glaring mistakes and it was not the N in the majority of the cases that caused these things.

LOL

That basically just proves my point. Everyone was jealous because prisoners get to die easily by N and we don't, but they don't really.

That's all I was saying this whole time, and nothing anyone trying to argue with me has said has disagreed with that.

I wasn't trying to open some kind of debate. I literally grabbed three random links I happened to know about because I figured someone would be like, what's your source? Sorry one of them was NPR... I honestly didn't even pay attention, and I don't really care. At least I made sure not to quote some tabloid.

 

[justpeachy]

LOL

That basically just proves my point. Everyone was jealous because prisoners get to die easily by N and we don't, but they don't really.

That's all I was saying this whole time, and nothing anyone trying to argue with me has said has disagreed with that.

I wasn't trying to open some kind of debate. I literally grabbed three random links I happened to know about because I figured someone would be like, what's your source? Sorry one of them was NPR... I honestly didn't even pay attention, and I don't really care. At least I made sure not to quote some tabloid.

I wasn't trying to argue. I was actually more in agreement with you. It's not nearly as simple as they get N and we don't wahhhhh.

 

[Aap]

I am well aware of the ubiquity if paralytic usage, as I can tell you are. (Add cisatricurium or succ usage by some EMTS as well for difficult intubations). Anyone who is can see this article for the untruthful, biased shit it is...

I don't care if people support or oppose the death penalty, but I do care when a govt subsidized "news" agency puts out blatant lies and biased, fear mongering reporting under the guise of moral rectitude.

 

[k75]

I wasn't trying to argue. I was actually more in agreement with you. It's not nearly as simple as they get N and we don't wahhhhh.

I'm sorry. I misunderstood what you were pointing out. I wasn't think we'll today.

 

[Meditation guide]

In Texas, for instance, state executioners have used versions of the drug made by compounding pharmacies, firms that make versions of other drugs. The versions of pentobarbital these firms produce may be contaminated or not potent enough, resulting in painful or botched executions. As Buzzfeed News reported last year, Texas inmates injected with locally made pentobarbital writhed on the floor, screamed in pain and said they could feel themselves "burning."

​

PENTOBARBITAL USED IN FEDERAL EXECUTIONS IN U.S.​

 

[Manford]

People are actually complaining that someone on death row has it better. That's kinda funny.

 

[Aap]

I wish people would stop linking to bullshit npr stories about lethal injection. We have already been through a categorical lie in the first one. Now, you post a new one.

Do you want to know how I know this NEW article is bullshit? Under NO circumstance would an inmate be administered pentobarbital EVER be unsecured or "on the floor."

Therefore, the npr story stating inmates "writhed on the floor" screaming in pain is demonstrably false. There are cogent arguments to be made against the death penalty. Posting NPR stories littered with bias and outright lies is NOT the way to make them.

 

[Deleted member 22624]

I wish people would stop linking to bullshit npr stories about lethal injection. We have already been through a categorical lie in the first one. Now, you post a new one.

Do you want to know how I know this NEW article is bullshit? Under NO circumstance would an inmate be administered pentobarbital EVER be unsecured or "on the floor."

Therefore, the npr story stating inmates "writhed on the floor" screaming in pain is demonstrably false. There are cogent arguments to be made against the death penalty. Posting NPR stories littered with bias and outright lies is NOT the way to make them.

But it reports an atrocity and signals dangers, and without further sources, it deserves attention without premature pressure to dismiss it

 

[Aap]

Wait, in BOTH articles, there are indisputable, verified lies. This somehow means the source is credible?

article 1 states paralytics are NEVER used in a hospital setting, when in reality they are used for almost every surgery and difficult intubation and on the WHO list of essential medication.

Article 2 states in Texas individuals are given pentobarbital and writhe around on the ground when in reality individuals given pentobarbital are securely strapped to a table.

indisputable, verified lies.

 

[justpeachy]

Wait, in BOTH articles, there are indisputable, verified lies. This somehow means the source is credible?

article 1 states paralytics are NEVER used in a hospital setting, when in reality they are used for almost every surgery and difficult intubation and on the WHO list of essential medication.

Article 2 states in Texas individuals are given pentobarbital and writhe around on the ground when in reality individuals given pentobarbital are securely strapped to a table.

indisputable, verified lies.

Yep, definitely both very blatant verifiable lies. I can provide many many many research articles that show paralytics are used very frequently in ERs. They use them with EVERY intubation in our ED. They're used during surgery often. That's just a flat out dumb lie. And it's very very very well known inmates are strapped down during lethal injection.....so how exactly was the person that is strapped down with leather straps rolling in the GROUND?