[Article] Debunking the argument “There are millions of people who successfully CTB!”

[TAW122]

I have heard pro-lifers often use this argument to dismiss or invalidate the notion of CTB'ing as well as downplay the difficulty and challenge of CTB'ing. Then they also follow up with yet another statement with "people who [really] want to CTB will find a way to [successfully] CTB" or similar lines and it is just pure ignorance on their part. Anyways, this thread is aimed at debunking the argument of "there are millions (or insert number statistics) of people who have successfully CTB".

One point I want to emphasize is that regardless of the number of people who CTB, pro-lifers will often use the argument to shut down any meaningful discussion or fact about the true nature of CTB'ing (from gathering the courage and ability to suppress one's own SI (survival instinct), finding a reliable and accessible method, being able to execute it successful, etc.). It doesn't matter if there are a million, several hundred thousand, several thousands, hundreds, or dozes, etc. of people who CTB. The number of people who (successfully) CTB'd bears no relevance to the argument as even if (hypothetically speaking) only one person CTB'd, pro-lifers will still tout some stupid reasoning that CTB must be easy or doable because ONE person managed to do it or some handful of people do. Obviously, in reality there aren't just one or a dozen of people who CTB, but rather hundreds of thousands to millions (worldwide) who successfully CTB'd.

Mathematically speaking, even millions of people are still a few small drops in the bucket of the human population in this world. Additionally, with the millions (or however many number of successful CTBs), there are multitudes more who have failed and ended up with worse predicaments such as permanent injury, scarring, loss of freedom, and all other consequences that only make their (already) poor quality of life worse.

In summary, this argument used by pro-lifers is nothing more than a (poor attempt at) dismissal of one's suffering as well as trivialization of the act of CTB'ing. If anything, CTB'ing is one of the hardest (perhaps even the hardest) action that any one individual can take given all the challenges and difficulties that one has to go through, from overcoming one's own self-preservation instinct (survival instinct), researching and acquiring the proper means (methods and materials) to CTB, and finally, have the capacity (both physical and mental) to carry out the action. Even then, there are unpredictable variables that could get in the way that would result in failure or not as peaceful, reliable way to CTB. Even in successful CTB's there are more often violent, brutal, and even painful. Therefore, out of the many people who CTB'd successfully, even fewer are able to have a peaceful, dignified exit.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I wonder how much luck/chance comes into it- like every other damn thing in life. It definitely seems to me like planning and researching is a good idea. My initial ideas about CTB almost certainly would have failed- either via paracetamol OD or, slashing wrists.

It's just odd though. Some methods seem so unlikely to succeed but have- like the suicide of Robin Williams. I still can't get my head around how that worked. Yet- other attempts like jumping from the Golden Gate Bridge have SOMETIMES failed.

I don't know really. I think you DO need to be very determined to CTB- especially if the first attempt causes pain but fails. If Robin Williams had quit after trying to slash his wrist- that would have been a failed attempt.

I agree with the statement that- 'Those who truly want to kill themselves will'. Not in terms of diminishing the desire to do it in those who fail- or, never attempt. More in the way that it isn't something pro-lifers will be able to stop. No matter what substances they ban or what places they restrict access to- people who are determind enough will still find a way.

What does irritate/insult me is this assumption that people who don't CTB don't TRULY want to. I think the MOTIVATION to want to CTB can be just as strong in people who don't go ahead with it. I suppose there's just something extra that triggers people to actually go through with it. I guess everyone here is just waiting for that time to come.

I agree though- it's a complicated thing. I have this suspicion that very few suicides are impulsive. I imagine most people put a great deal of thought into it. I think that's a major factor in their mis-understanding. That suicide is just a random overwhelming impulse and that there is no rationality once it takes ahold. I expect in some cases- that's true. In others though- it really isn't. While people even here may actually end up doing the act impulsively- the fact of them being here shows that they aren't that impulsive. They are thinking about it.

Seeing as it is such a risky thing to do- plus, it's an emotionally difficult thing to do- most of us don't want to hurt our loved ones- there is PLENTY to stop us from going ahead with it. We may still REALLY want to do it- but- because we ARE thinking about it rationally- sometimes the risks and consequences seem too bad to go ahead with it.

You're right- it's such a dumb thing to taunt us with- millions of people are successful in CTB- you can't REALLY want it- type of thing. It's not like choosing what ice cream flavour you want! Again though- it seems like a good example of their mixed up thinking. I don't think they like the idea that their loved one in fact has thought rationally about suicide and feels like it's their best option. They'd rather just chalk it up to mental illness. But then- they don't REALLY want to think of their loved one as mentally ill/retarded either- so- maybe it's easier for them to say- 'It's just a phase/ you're being over-dramatic'.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

A million people may successfully carry out suicide in a given year, but there are many, many millions of people who had suicidal thoughts and plans. The percentage of successful exits is always going to be small compared to the total number of people who entertain thoughts of suicide.

 

[TAW122]

I wonder how much luck/chance comes into it- like every other damn thing in life. It definitely seems to me like planning and researching is a good idea. My initial ideas about CTB almost certainly would have failed- either via paracetamol OD or, slashing wrists.

It's just odd though. Some methods seem so unlikely to succeed but have- like the suicide of Robin Williams. I still can't get my head around how that worked. Yet- other attempts like jumping from the Golden Gate Bridge have SOMETIMES failed.

I don't know really. I think you DO need to be very determined to CTB- especially if the first attempt causes pain but fails. If Robin Williams had quit after trying to slash his wrist- that would have been a failed attempt.

I agree with the statement that- 'Those who truly want to kill themselves will'. Not in terms of diminishing the desire to do it in those who fail- or, never attempt. More in the way that it isn't something pro-lifers will be able to stop. No matter what substances they ban or what places they restrict access to- people who are determind enough will still find a way.

What does irritate/insult me is this assumption that people who don't CTB don't TRULY want to. I think the MOTIVATION to want to CTB can be just as strong in people who don't go ahead with it. I suppose there's just something extra that triggers people to actually go through with it. I guess everyone here is just waiting for that time to come.

I agree though- it's a complicated thing. I have this suspicion that very few suicides are impulsive. I imagine most people put a great deal of thought into it. I think that's a major factor in their mis-understanding. That suicide is just a random overwhelming impulse and that there is no rationality once it takes ahold. I expect in some cases- that's true. In others though- it really isn't. While people even here may actually end up doing the act impulsively- the fact of them being here shows that they aren't that impulsive. They are thinking about it.

Seeing as it is such a risky thing to do- plus, it's an emotionally difficult thing to do- most of us don't want to hurt our loved ones- there is PLENTY to stop us from going ahead with it. We may still REALLY want to do it- but- because we ARE thinking about it rationally- sometimes the risks and consequences seem too bad to go ahead with it.

You're right- it's such a dumb thing to taunt us with- millions of people are successful in CTB- you can't REALLY want it- type of thing. It's not like choosing what ice cream flavour you want! Again though- it seems like a good example of their mixed up thinking. I don't think they like the idea that their loved one in fact has thought rationally about suicide and feels like it's their best option. They'd rather just chalk it up to mental illness. But then- they don't REALLY want to think of their loved one as mentally ill/retarded either- so- maybe it's easier for them to say- 'It's just a phase/ you're being over-dramatic'.

I do believe that with low success rate methods (cutting and OD), yes, while there are some people who do end up dying, it is neither peaceful, nor reliable, it just so happens that the right circumstances caused their death, oftenly later, painfully and gruesomely. As for OD'ing, it is likely the failure of the liver, toxicity of the drug, and other complications that result in death. I do believe that yes, determination is a big factor in not only overcoming one's own SI, but also going through with the attempt to ensure success (including preparation, research, and execution).

While yes, those who truly want to kill themselves will do so, they oftenly resort to violent (and perhaps some, less reliable and more painful) means to do so, which adds unnecessary risks and suffering to their CTB attempt. However, by having peaceful means, not only is there more reliability and less risk overall, but also would not result in collateral damage and gruesome aftermaths (blood, gore, and other mess after one's death).

I agree with you that the faulty assumption that prolifers have is that people who don't CTB (or fail in their attempts) don't truely wish to CTB is erroneous. This is because it is presumptuous to assume that the pro-lifer knows what the person wanting to CTB is thinking (they can't read their minds!) and also it minimizes the suffering and ignores the intent of the person wanting to die. Nobody, but the person themselves (wanting to CTB) knows one's own true intentions. I agree with the last sentence of that paragraph. Like I (personally) will not consider most of the people on SaSu to be impulsive because they have suffered for an inordinate amount of time before they come to SaSu, and they have already thought their decision well ahead of time. SaSu just provides a safe haven and camaraderie among similar like minded people to discuss, vent, and research information. Ultimately, the person themselves make the final decision. For myself, it definitely is NOT impulsive as I've been this way for a good portion of my life, even well before SaSu was founded. I just know that when I do go (whenever that time comes), it will be my own volition and contrary to what others (pro-lifers) claim, they are ultimately wrong. They don't know my intentions nor can they read my mind.

While there are people who stick around for loved ones, I do think that it is selfless of the suicidal to offer that benefit to the pro-lifers and selfish for pro-lifers to obligate those who don't wish to (continue to) exist to remain alive for their (pro-lifers' selfish) interests. In the end, it's about respecting the individual's right to self bodily autonomy, and if pro-lifers fail to honor that, then (personally) I believe their right to enjoy life should be diminished, but I digress (as that heads into another thread altogether).

In the last paragraph, your explanation makes sense as it explains how pro-lifers simply just can't come to terms with reality nor respect another person's bodily autonomy, especially when it comes to self-deletion, self-termination (on oneself's own terms). Nonetheless, it is still a shitty predicament because (at least until voluntary euthanasia is destigmatized, legalized and regulated with safeguards, and accessible to many) we (pro-choicers and those who wish to leave on our own terms) continue to hide in the dark closet, and always have to covertly plan, research, and execute our escape from this hellish existence with all the risks and potential consequences for failure.

A million people may successfully carry out suicide in a given year, but there are many, many millions of people who had suicidal thoughts and plans. The percentage of successful exits is always going to be small compared to the total number of people who entertain thoughts of suicide.

Indeed that is true. I do think that if voluntary euthanasia is legalized and regulated with safeguards, this would certainly change. Sure, there may still be impulsive and violent CTBs, but it will be less than what we see today.

 

[FuneralCry]

If people think that suicide is easy then they are so ignorant and clearly have never even researched suicide methods. Suicide really is so unnecessarily difficult, complicated and risky in this world which is a consequence of existing in this anti-suicide society, I hate how difficult it is to finally cease existing.