Discussion Are you hunkered down in CTB (whether that's until you can't take it anymore [years] or after the parents goes [30ish years if millenial])? [Long]

[NemoZeno]

This is mostly a moot and, in all probability, insipid question (I already see 1 post asking roughly the same thing) but we really don't have much to lose by revisiting what I titled (I have the hubris to believe mine is different enough that warrants a "repost" of this question).
I am NOT trying to be confrontational, malicious, or making this a pro-life post: just had an experience, wanted to share, and wanted to hear your thoughts if this interests you enough.
If this is too long...well, context is king so this isn't interesting enough so don't bother. But my sentiment on this inane wall of text will be IN CAPS below just so it's clear that I'm not forceful pro-life.

This post is a result of finally watching David Goggins' 1st Joe Rogan interview which laid out to viewers the life of the man that enabled him to do what he does.
He started getting decent attention through word of mouth "far" back as 2008 and I heard of some of his impressive exploits but never really paid any mind to it.
To make as short as possible, his formative years were as shitty as a good number of people on here [poor+shit parent(s) figure among other things] and that stuck with him until he couldn't take it anymore when he was around 24/26 and decided to change. In a sentence: "A survivor of abuse and bigotry who overcame asthma, a learning disability, a stutter, obesity, low self-esteem and countless fears" is now happy (which is what 99% of people want).
His book and interview detail more on how he had so little yet so much opposition against him but ended getting to where he wants to be in life.

Before watching it, I was reasonably confident on my implacability in regards to living but man: it is virtually impossible not to be fascinated/moved/inspired/etc by his testimony. I joke that Job from the Bible had it WAY easier [For one, he still had outside consolation in the end (reparations and an "answer" from god).]
Anyhow, I was temporarily inspired last night to kind of "be in the pain" (his philosophy) not because I wanted to live again (although "subconsciously" maybe that WAS the case) but to see if I could do it.
Well, that shit died down pretty quickly after "sleeping" then waking up for the usual tedium but I was still surprised how encouraged I was which is why I'm posting now.

For me, I don't seek to be happy so while his philosophy backed up by his daily experience is enticing in terms of getting towards X goal that makes one happy, it's ultimately something that wouldn't convince me to live, it got me thinking that he easily could have been here.
He was beaten by his father, grew up poor, cheated his way through most of school (and felt shame over it), was bullied, faked who he was so people would like him, constant self-doubt+fear+loathing, obese, never really had good help in any capacity...that's easily a concoction for MDD at the minimum and opening the gateway for other mental illnesses. I'm surprised he never mentioned that he was semi-suicidal at some point in his life given how open he is about virtually everything but maybe that's the one thing he doesn't want to divulge(?).
Yet the 1 difference between the Goggins who could have been a regular here and the Goggins now is that he just didn't quit. He didn't really have money or support. He did have opportunity in a sense (which roughly most people do) but that's meaningless without will which is all he had that mattered.
As have many you you, I have heard (plenty of) stories of successful (whatever that means) people who didn't quit to get where they are. I have never heard of never quitting despite so much fucking suffering to get towards victory.
I might be overreaching and angering some of you by saying this but his story makes me think that most here and those with strong SS belief can potentially (albeit it's an extremely arduous journey at best) be happy.
You probably have tried enough times and are understandably tired but you probably haven't tried all. Whether that's worth it is up to you (I CERTAINLY DON'T THINK IT IS) but it IS possible (SLIM but existent nonetheless) to change so that you can get what you want out of life.

Are you as entrenched as I am?

EDIT 1 I immediately thought of some of you who have literal physical pain that doesnt have a cause+cure and this: I did say MOST and I didn't really make any absolutes (I'd have to reread what I wrote to see if I did make that mistake and at this point I'm annoyed enough at my own words that I"m not going to bother).
IF I did, I don't stand by it (ie fuck what I say).
So this might not apply to you as at all or as much. Sorry.

EDIT 2 In a sense I am "advertising" Goggins which is hypocritical of me since I don't really have much conviction (which I have stated clearly) to try what I'm "selling" (which I'm not exactly aiming at).
I'll acknowledge that but it's not about me. It's not even about Goggins who said it's about YOU. I'm just silly, misguided, and temporarily motivated enough to be spreading that. Sorry but I might have more edits.

EDIT 3 The header did cover this but I'm suicidal because I have problems so here we go again with another edit: If any of you are familiar with Goggins and his story, you'll know that he's QUITE pro-life. AFAIK He might not be that to the degree that he'll FORCE you into the psych-ward, take meds, etc type but still. That probably rubbed some of you the wrong way hence I with this post rubbed you the wrong way.
If so, sorry about that. Again, I'm NOT advocating you "HAVE TO" try again. I'm just offering up a question for you to consider and, if you be so kind, to share your views on this.

 

[lululoo]

I don't agree with you, but no worries, I'm not mad. Ha. First I will say I do fall in the camp of having an incurable physical condition, so what you're saying doesn't quite apply to me. But still, I disagree. I think it's very naive to say that the only difference between overcoming a crap life and not is whether you keep trying. I think it's easy to point at a success case and say that means it can be done, but there will always be stories like this. There is always the guy raised in extreme poverty and violence who goes to Harvard. There are always people with exceptional gifts, or exceptional resources along the way, that can overcome horrible circumstances. But there are plenty of people who don't have the innate qualities or the resources to overcome.

Like for me, even without my condition, I think I am doomed because I raised in a psychologically torturous household and I had no one to offer me love and guidance outside of that. I haven't had any replacement (whether a parental figure or a lasting romantic relationship) to help me build the characteristics needed to overcome my upbringing. I have no confidence or sense of self. Now do you really think I can just "keep trying" and develop all these things I need in my 30s? When I am battling severe depression and have no support system?

It's just so complicated and really these inspirational stories mean nothing to me anymore. I used to feel a kinship with the people who had been through so much, and think that I could be like them and overcome. But now I can only acknowledge that there is something different about these people, and it is not about trying. I tried very hard my whole life. Then I gave up.

I will say, some people here in this forum may be in the camp that could overcome if they kept trying. So I don't want to discourage anyone who wants to do that. But I think the fact that Goggins exists has no bearing on whether or not anyone here can end up with his success.

 

[NemoZeno]

I don't agree with you, but no worries, I'm not mad. Ha. First I will say I do fall in the camp of having an incurable physical condition, so what you're saying doesn't quite apply to me. But still, I disagree. I think it's very naive to say that the only difference between overcoming a crap life and not is whether you keep trying. I think it's easy to point at a success case and say that means it can be done, but there will always be stories like this. There is always the guy raised in extreme poverty and violence who goes to Harvard. There are always people with exceptional gifts, or exceptional resources along the way, that can overcome horrible circumstances. But there are plenty of people who don't have the innate qualities or the resources to overcome.

Like for me, even without my condition, I think I am doomed because I raised in a psychologically torturous household and I had no one to offer me love and guidance outside of that. I haven't had any replacement (whether a parental figure or a lasting romantic relationship) to help me build the characteristics needed to overcome my upbringing. I have no confidence or sense of self. Now do you really think I can just "keep trying" and develop all these things I need in my 30s? When I am battling severe depression and have no support system?

It's just so complicated and really these inspirational stories mean nothing to me anymore. I used to feel a kinship with the people who had been through so much, and think that I could be like them and overcome. But now I can only acknowledge that there is something different about these people, and it is not about trying. I tried very hard my whole life. Then I gave up.

I will say, some people here in this forum may be in the camp that could overcome if they kept trying. So I don't want to discourage anyone who wants to do that. But I think the fact that Goggins exists has no bearing on whether or not anyone here can end up with his success.

Thanks for the input.
I'm probably repeating myself but my impression (which could be very off) of what I read tells it's not unwarranted

I agree it is naive to say "that the only difference between overcoming a crap life and not is whether you keep trying " which is why I mentioned in edit 1 that I didn't mean that as a blanket term. Maybe my memory is off and and somewhere else in this post I said the opposite but, again, edit says I can go fuck myself and I don't agree with that blanket absolute.

Your 2nd paragraph kind of mirrors Goggins. Mainly:
-bad household
-no guidance
My whole point is that that I think you can *POSSIBLY* develop these things even when you're battling with a deficit. His testament:
-self-worth/confidence
-support
-good upbringing
-conditions stacked against you (physical ailment, general lack of resources, etc)
-etc other things
led him to happiness after stubbornly and absurdly working towards what he wanted .
He mentions his 40% "rule": the feeling that you're completely tapped out actually comes when you're only 40 percent done; you still have 60 percent left in the tank. He thought he tried very hard/gave all he got.
He quit. Came back to it, quit, and eventually succeeded. So he's not exactly pulling that out of his ass: he lived through "gave my very best" then looked back and saw he still had something left.
The only "special" thing about him is his absolute refusal to give up. He thinks everyone has this (I slightly disagree) BUT it needs cultivation.

Now, despite calling it a rule, I don't believe he's saying that's an absolute and neither am I so if you say YOU tried very pretty much everything that is available now, he/I am NOT disputing that [as edit 3 implies at the end, I'm NOT trying to convince you to not give up].

I get this inspirational story doesn't do anything for you. I'm under no illusion that it'll reach everyone. Neither is he.
As mentioned in OP, I'm on the fence about this as it is (for different reasons than you though) but coming from a damaged background like you did, something like this that moved me a bit so this is nothing more than frivolous time killer that I'm currently focusing on.
Part of me focusing and applying what I saw involves me talking about it.
Again, sorry if my whole response was still just the same as my OP.

 

[NemoZeno]

Yeah....
My hasty belief based on only a single source and more reflections is that my whole post is shit (which I believed was the case anyway and semi-alluded to).

I won't delete the mistake that is my post but please disregard.

 

[lululoo]

Thanks for the input.
I'm probably repeating myself but my impression (which could be very off) of what I read tells it's not unwarranted

I agree it is naive to say "that the only difference between overcoming a crap life and not is whether you keep trying " which is why I mentioned in edit 1 that I didn't mean that as a blanket term. Maybe my memory is off and and somewhere else in this post I said the opposite but, again, edit says I can go fuck myself and I don't agree with that blanket absolute.

Your 2nd paragraph kind of mirrors Goggins. Mainly:
-bad household
-no guidance
My whole point is that that I think you can *POSSIBLY* develop these things even when you're battling with a deficit. His testament:
-self-worth/confidence
-support
-good upbringing
-conditions stacked against you (physical ailment, general lack of resources, etc)
-etc other things
led him to happiness after stubbornly and absurdly working towards what he wanted .
He mentions his 40% "rule": the feeling that you're completely tapped out actually comes when you're only 40 percent done; you still have 60 percent left in the tank. He thought he tried very hard/gave all he got.
He quit. Came back to it, quit, and eventually succeeded. So he's not exactly pulling that out of his ass: he lived through "gave my very best" then looked back and saw he still had something left.
The only "special" thing about him is his absolute refusal to give up. He thinks everyone has this (I slightly disagree) BUT it needs cultivation.

Now, despite calling it a rule, I don't believe he's saying that's an absolute and neither am I so if you say YOU tried very pretty much everything that is available now, he/I am NOT disputing that [as edit 3 implies at the end, I'm NOT trying to convince you to not give up].

I get this inspirational story doesn't do anything for you. I'm under no illusion that it'll reach everyone. Neither is he.
As mentioned in OP, I'm on the fence about this as it is (for different reasons than you though) but coming from a damaged background like you did, something like this that moved me a bit so this is nothing more than frivolous time killer that I'm currently focusing on.
Part of me focusing and applying what I saw involves me talking about it.
Again, sorry if my whole response was still just the same as my OP.

I thought in Edit 1, you were just giving an exception for physical issues. I was saying that even ignoring physical issues or other concrete realities, there are still other factors besides effort. But if you are acknowledging that, then ok.

As far as Goggins and I both having bad upbringings, I get that. In fact, maybe his was even 10 times worse than mine, who's to say... but my point is that Goggins may have other qualities to him, or may have had other resources along the way (or at the point that he turned it around) to help him make this change. I'm sort of over blaming myself so I'm going to assume he has something else going for him that I do not. Even if all he has that I don't is the resilience to keep on going no matter how many years of hardship and disappointment... well, that is something I don't have. I simply cannot keep going for years more while suffering physically and mentally, and unloved. It is painful.

If you and others find hope in his story and others like his, I have no problem with that. Like I said, I found hope in this stuff for awhile. I would even seek out stories of people like me for whom it "got better". I read memoirs of troubled people obsessively for years. I'm just over it at this point.

I also want to add that people who are successful or even who just get by frequently feel that they are not anything special. But they don't know the experience of the counterfactual. They may be blind to what they have that others do not. For instance, I don't think I'm special for being able to go to a store or to go to a party and interact with people, even if I hate it. but to someone with severe social anxiety, I have an asset that they don't, that would make my climb out of misery much easier.

I really don't want to rain on your parade if you are feeling inspired. I am just speaking for myself, and perhaps others like me.

Yeah....
My hasty belief based on only a single source and more reflections is that my whole post is shit (which I believed was the case anyway and semi-alluded to).

I won't delete the mistake that is my post but please disregard.

I actually don't think your post is shit! Don't feel bad about it. I think maybe some people do leave the party of life just before they were about to meet their soul mate (metaphorically). I just don't think it's quite as common as people like Goggins tend to proclaim. They tend to universalize their experience to others.

 

[NemoZeno]

@lululoo Well I did achieve what I wanted: I heard your perspective. It was humbling and good to know. So thank you once again.