Discussion Are you a incel?

[UndeadSpectre]

By incel i just mean someone who is involuntary celibate.

 

[pyx]

not sure. virgin and incel are two different things after all, assuming we don't go by the weaponized definition. is a thirteen-year-old boy an incel, even if he'd like more than anything to have sex? no, because the path to inceldom assumes that you've done everything within your power to acquire sex organically; and yet you're still unable to overcome the initial step. i'm not a self-identifying incel, but when people say that 'anyone can find a relationship/reasons to commit suicide due to an inability to acquire sex are invalid!' that really irks me, because the threshold for sufficient reason to commit suicide is going to be inherently low on a pro-choice forum. it doesn't make sense to gatekeep an event which fundamentally is a result of your self-autonomy as an individual

 

[-nobodyknows-]

I don't think I'd call myself an "incel", though I guess by some definitions I am

 

[betternever2havbeen]

no, because the path to inceldom assumes that you've done everything within your power to acquire sex organically; and yet you're still unable to overcome the initial step.

Why do you think they are unable to overcome the initial step? And do you think they have done everything within their power?

 

[pyx]

Why do you think they are unable to overcome the initial step? And do you think they have done everything within their power?

the initial step consists of being able to meet the demands of attraction. this is dependent upon the space in which you pursue relationships; spaces which are local to you, and as such are regulated locally. you can only meet women when given the opportunity to by the communities which are accessible to you. not all people have this; and even if they have access to these communities, there is no guarantee that incels are able to compete within these spaces. it may not even be solely about physical attraction. at the very most, it requires some degree of social competency which can meet the expectations of sexual competition; you only develop or accentuate socially desirable attributes due to social response, and these modifications are regulated by communities which have the capacity to gatekeep and private sex from those who are socially incompatible. the sort of modification that i make to my behaviour in order to increase the probability of finding a partner is not dependent on the idea of the qualities that i need to develop and embody in my mind, since material attributions of your character are formed by independent observers. looks makes the initial step easier to overcome, since at the very least it provides you with room to make appropriate modifications to your behaviour in the future

incels are actually quite a minority of men it seems to me. their presence is usually concentrated in incel specific forums, but in reality not many men are willing to self-identify as an incel, partly because it is an admission of total defeat. their presence only enters into the currency of current thought when people weaponize the term to subsume individuals whose qualities overlap with their idea of inceldom, which in itself leads to further privation of social rewards and disengagement from communities. so i consider incels to be an, albeit rare, breed of individuals who likely have done everything within their power, since self-identifying as one is inherently self-defeating. the locus of their views viewed as problematic is just a consequence on their insistence upon brotherhood, which offers its own rewards. people like to think that self-identification is some sort of contraindicator to entering into contractual relationships, which i don't think to be true, due to the fact that identification and conflation of attributes which are seen as causative of your status as an incel can only be spoken about if they are material attributions; if not, then they are only alleged qualities which arise from the former problem of the association of lonely/incapable men with incels (those who are viewed as being unable to obtain sex as a consequence of internalized misogyny, or some other vacuous nonargument)

it's not as easy as 'just work out, get a haircut, take a shower, etc.,' which don't necessarily offer anything constructive toward improvement. so me reasoning that they have done everything in their power is equivalent to me believing that they exist

 

[UnluckyBastard]

I have yet to see a consistent definition of "incel".

 

[AresCohere]

No, and it's annoying people associate us will "all being incels"

 

[Trav1989]

By incel i just mean someone who is involuntary celibate.

By that definition yes, I am most certainly an "incel". Sure, I could go out and have sex with any woman who is willing and likely succeed but what I desire is true love and companionship and sex that has strings attached as odd as that sounds. So yeah, I'm an "incel" because I can't seem to find a woman who is willing to go the long haul with me. I have been talking to two women (one is an ex) though, and one quite literally showed up on my doorstep because she is a family friend and she saw my Facebook posts so reached out to me and things have slowly progressed to I dare say, dating albeit a at an extremely slow pace.

As for my ex, I've kept her at a distance because she is a bit unstable in a lot of ways and she lives a ways away and has a fiancé and a track record of cheating on nearly every guy she has dated but she is very good in bed admittedly.

 

[Roseate]

By that definition yes, I am most certainly an "incel". Sure, I could go out and have sex with any woman who is willing and likely succeed but what I desire is true love and companionship and sex that has strings attached as odd as that sounds. So yeah, I'm an "incel" because I can't seem to find a woman who is willing to go the long haul with me. I have been talking to two women (one is an ex) though, and one quite literally showed up on my doorstep because she is a family friend and she saw my Facebook posts so reached out to me and things have slowly progressed to I dare say, dating albeit a at an extremely slow pace.

As for my ex, I've kept her at a distance because she is a bit unstable in a lot of ways and she lives a ways away and has a fiancé and a track record of cheating on nearly every guy she has dated but she is very good in bed admittedly.

But wouldn't that make you not an incel? Choosing to find love before having sex is not really involuntary? It's a choice. And it has nothing to do with love or not finding someone. Love is rare and finding someone who is for the long haul is even more rare for both genders. People want something easy and low effort and don't want to pour into anything or even give their hearts, they'd rather play game. So if that's the case then most of the world would be incels, right? Cuz a lot of people are choosing to be single than do exactly what you say you don't want to do. Maybe you don't understand the meaning of the word.

 

[Jon Arbuckle]

I'm a girl, and I have a boyfriend. you can have a romantic partner and still be depressed. there are people who are married with children who kill themselves.

 

[Roseate]

I'm a girl, and I have a boyfriend. you can have a romantic partner and still be depressed. there are people who are married with children who kill themselves.

They don't get that. I've seen so many people miserable in a relationship, far more than single people. They have this delusional idea that "sex" will fix them and it's not rooted in reality because sex comes with a set of different problems and love is not guaranteed. Most people will go their whole lives never experiencing true love, and most will achieve mediocrity their entire lives and that's just what most people have to look forward to. You can either accept that or just be single. And even if you find something real, it doesn't fix your other issues and no one needs to deal with someone's flaws. Love doesn't mean they will either. Some people just seem to be reading from a fairytale books.

 

[pyx]

They have this delusional idea that "sex" will fix them

that's not true. otherwise the services of escorts would be the single greatest panacea for incels, which it is obviously not

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I'm an incel but rather than make it everyone else's problem I realize that my inceldom is my fault alone and that I'd be better off dead before I end up hurting people.

 

[pyx]

If that wasn't true, then why is it considered involuntary celibate? Love and sex is not at all the same. I know some delusional people have this idea that love and sex are one and the same but they aren't. Yes, sex is a form of intimacy but love can survive without sex when there are other forms of intimacy presence. And sex is not the only form of intimacy that exists, contrary to the mass beliefs. You can love someone and not have sex with them. And according to the google definition it is definitely about sex. Some men think they're owed sex and they shouldn't have to pay for it, but guess what? We're owed basic human decency which doesn't include sex or love yet most don't even have those. Excuse me for getting tired of listening to the same constant BS all the time, some things don't deserve sympathy. If they want sex so bad, pay for it. If they want love so bad, pay for it. Some people can't get basic things and we are always worrying about the wrong things. Incels have nothing to do with mental health and suicide, if you want to ctb over that then quite frankly that's just sad. Plenty of people are virgins, been rejected, and we don't make it our whole personality. Plenty of people haven't gotten the chance to have sex yet and guess what? They're fine because there is more to life than sex. Having sex doesn't make anyone more or less desirable.

obviously it's being incapable of acquiring it organically, not through the services of escorts. the process by which an individual acquires sex organically through relationships (which amount to contractual agreements with their own bundles of assumptions and expectations) is a social proof, indicating that an individual possesses the degree of social competency required for integrating into society

Or you could just grow up. It's not that hard to find someone. Plenty of insecure people in the world willing to accept the bare minimum. But you guys would rather complain and take your life than put actual effort and idk maybe not going for people who are prettier than you.

you've repeated this platitude in another thread, which i responded to. please stop projecting and strawmanning these issues when they have already been explained to you.

but i'll repeat it again: they have as much of a right to suicide as you do. it's a pro-choice forum. not euthanasia, but suicide: the choice to end your own life.

 

[sugarb]

I'm a weird introverted male over 18 who hasn't had sex, so I'd probably be considered an incel and I voted as such. But the term's been poisoned by nadirs (incel forums, shooters, etc) so I would never call myself that, I'd prefer virgin

it sucks less because I want sex and more because of virgin shaming and not having a community

I can't be honest about my dating/sex life if asked as I'll be seen as a weird, possibly violent loser. I don't think people are aware of how big the stigma actually is or how harmful it can be. Like, I'm bisexual and in most contexts I'm more comfortable sharing that than admitting I'm a virgin. obviously gay bashing is more physically harmful but being seen as a weirdo hurts, especially when you already feel like one

And as I'm bisexual and not particularly misogynistic, I'm not welcome with most proper incels. they'd probably call me a volcel (choosing to be celibate) since I barely tried (I asked out an asexual and someone already taken before deciding against going further). Which, again, sucks, because there's still a stigma (and some self doubt, in part caused by stigma) that says I'm not actually choosing to be single and celibate.

Again regarding community- it's hard to find a place where I wouldn't have to worry about my virginity being used as ammunition if I got in an argument or something, I wouldn't be seen as weird or less-than for it, which is also not misogynistic.

that's part of why I like it here. Very diverse viewpoints on all sorts of things and people from all walks of life, pretty much everyone's weird and mentally ill like me, and there's not much in the way of out groups. It's just sort of safe, as paradoxical as that is considering it's all about death. If you're generally nice and respectful to others you'll generally be treated nicely and respectfully.

I went on for a while here but I had some thoughts and wanted to finish them

 

[pyx]

Projecting? I disagree. Saying everyone has a right to suicide is saying a 10 year old child has that exact right too and I don't think they do. And let's get one thing straight, I'm not pro-suicide. And quite frankly, suicide isn't a freaking choice. No one wants to be miserable and we're looking at being miserable, being suicidal (which isn't a freaking choice, that's INVOLUNTARY) and having these thought that we can't just erase and so we have two choice, either stay with these suicidal thoughts or end the thoughts by taking our lives. End our pain. A pain we can't choose. So some of us do when we feel there are NO OTHER options. I'm so sick of you guys spreading this delusional idea that it's a choice. Let me repeat again for you, mental illness is not a choice and suicidal thoughts aren't a choice and we didn't pick them. So I'm sorry if I think that not everyone should be ending their lives for every little reason. I see suicide as a last option, not a first option. You want to know what happens when its allowed to be a first option? People regret it midway and they can't take it back.

didn't say every individual is equal in their right to commit suicide, just that the threshold for sufficient reason is arguably quite low, considering we are on a pro-choice forum. i don't think children who are incapable of rationally weighing the consequences of their decision should be given the means to commit suicide. the same is true of people who want to commit suicide impulsively due to an immediate trauma, though that depends on quite a few assumptions on their situation
suicide is obviously a choice. you don't choose to be miserable, but you have a choice whether or not to end it. that's why there are plenty of miserable people who continue to live. nothing wrong with that either. i'm not sure where you got the idea that suicidal ideation predestines you towards suicide, because that's just wrong. and i say that incels have the right to die because for them to even consider something as radical as suicide must indicate that their problems are by no means trivial. moreover, who is to say that there isn't overlap between mental illness and inceldom? for the reasons i explained before and in another thread, their problems are valid. obviously an incel doesn't have more reason than, say, someone who is chronically ill, but that's a problem for euthanasia and not suicide. you misunderstand that suicide preserves your autonomy, and that, practically speaking, you aren't predetermined to commit suicide

the people that regret it midway are those who report that they have. a case of survivorship bias

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Or you could just grow up. It's not that hard to find someone. Plenty of insecure people in the world willing to accept the bare minimum. But you guys would rather complain and take your life than put actual effort and idk maybe not going for people who are prettier than you.

I'm already fully grown at 30 years old. The only direction my brain and body are going is a degenerating spiral downward. It's already too late for me. Thanks for the assumptions though. You're probably right but if I was ever going to change I would have done it already so oh well.

 

[sugarb]

I'd be better off dead before I end up hurting people.

I think like that a lot. I'm so bored and hollow most of the time it feels like I might do something horrible without even realizing I'm doing it or do it just to feel something. I've never done anything like that before but I might, you know? I don't like it at all

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I think like that a lot. I'm so bored and hollow most of the time it feels like I might do something horrible without even realizing I'm doing it or do it just to feel something. I've never done anything like that before but I might, you know? I don't like it at all

In my case I already know I've done horrible things. In my feeble attempts to break out of being an incel I just end up causing more harm and mental distress, especially to women. Trying to deny I'm an incel just keeps making me into more of one.

 

[Roseate]

I'm already fully grown at 30 years old. The only direction my brain and body are going is a degenerating spiral downward. It's already too late for me. Thanks for the assumptions though. You're probably right but if I was ever going to change I would have done it already so oh well.

Oh well indeed. You said yourself you've cause harm and mental distress, so my assumptions was right. I think it's absurd that because this is a pro-suicide forum that means we have to tiptoe around accountability.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Oh well indeed. You said yourself you've cause harm and mental distress, so my assumptions was right. I think it's absurd that because this is a pro-suicide forum that means we have to tiptoe around accountability.

I'm sorry. I try to be accountable by constantly admitting my faults but it doesn't do enough to keep people away from me. I should be dead and I know I deserve worse than that but in my selfishness and cruelty I still want a peaceful death even though I know I don't deserve it. I don't deserve a good life either.

 

[Roseate]

didn't say every individual is equal in their right to commit suicide, just that the threshold for sufficient reason is arguably quite low, considering we are on a pro-choice forum. i don't think children who are incapable of rationally weighing the consequences of their decision should be given the means to commit suicide. the same is true of people who want to commit suicide impulsively due to an immediate trauma, though that depends on quite a few assumptions on their situation
suicide is obviously a choice. you don't choose to be miserable, but you have a choice whether or not to end it. that's why there are plenty of miserable people who continue to live. nothing wrong with that either. i'm not sure where you got the idea that suicidal ideation predestines you towards suicide, because that's just wrong. and i say that incels have the right to die because for them to even consider something as radical as suicide must indicate that their problems are by no means trivial. moreover, who is to say that there isn't overlap between mental illness and inceldom? for the reasons i explained before and in another thread, their problems are valid. obviously an incel doesn't have more reason than, say, someone who is chronically ill, but that's a problem for euthanasia and not suicide. you misunderstand that suicide preserves your autonomy, and that, practically speaking, you aren't predetermined to commit suicide

the people that regret it midway are those who report that they have. a case of survivorship bias

I genuinely don't care. I will not apologize for not caring about the same people who go around hurting women every day with no consequences. And if it's projection then damn right cuz I'm sick of it. And yeah I know it's not all, but whoever falls into it specifically know who they are.

 

[sugarb]

Or you could just grow up. It's not that hard to find someone. Plenty of insecure people in the world willing to accept the bare minimum. But you guys would rather complain and take your life than put actual effort and idk maybe not going for people who are prettier than you.

I did find someone once. She was a lot more mentally ill than I am and so insecure she'd take literally anyone who'd stay with her, and I did that. but that's all I could do for her. I tried loving and taking care of her and I couldn't retain those feelings. I put in effort. I wasn't able to keep her as a focus in my life so we've drifted

It's extremely hard to find someone you actually love and stay in love with, that you would suffer for and genuinely want as your companion in life. It's significantly harder when you're mentally ill, even harder when you try to keep them. If I had someone I actually wanted to stay for I wouldn't be here, planning to blow my head off with a shotgun.

It's not as simple an issue as you think it is, please stop trivializing it. I know this wasn't directed at me, I just got a bit emotional and wanted to try and tell you that it's not so cut and dry

 

[Roseate]

I did find someone once. She was a lot more mentally ill than I am and so insecure she'd take literally anyone who'd stay with her, and I did that. but that's all I could do for her. I tried loving and taking care of her and I couldn't retain those feelings. I put in effort. I wasn't able to keep her as a focus in my life so we've drifted

It's extremely hard to find someone you actually love and stay in love with, that you would suffer for and genuinely want as your companion in life. It's significantly harder when you're mentally ill, even harder when you try to keep them. If I had someone I actually wanted to stay for I wouldn't be here, planning to blow my head off with a shotgun.

It's not as simple an issue as you think it is, please stop trivializing it. I know this wasn't directed at me, I just got a bit emotional and wanted to try and tell you that it's not so cut and dry

I never said it was simple. I know love doesn't solve it all. I've seen these loves hurt way more. And if you had someone, it still wouldn't make a difference. Maybe you'd stay for them, right? You'd try even though you're tired and you'd live for them, not for you but people leave! It's what they do. Maybe you're giving them too much or maybe they found better or maybe they're just tired of you and so they walk away. We're all born alone and we're all meant to go alone. If anything you're the one making it sound cut and dry. Are you trying to convince me if you had someone you'd stay or yourself? I think whether you had someone or not, you'd still be there with the shotgun. Plenty of people who killed themselves had someone and they still did it. You're not any different.

Never said it wasn't harder, that's been my entire point. That "love" doesn't fix or change anything. It won't make you suddenly want to live. It won't make you not suicidal. It's the same result because this isn't the movies or the books. "Love" doesn't fix everything. It barely scratch the surface. That was specifically for those that think there problems would be solved if they could just have sex or be in a relationship.

 

[sugarb]

I never said it was simple. I know love doesn't solve it all. I've seen these loves hurt way more. And if you had someone, it still wouldn't make a difference. Maybe you'd stay for them, right? You'd try even though you're tired and you'd live for them, not for you but people leave! It's what they do. Maybe you're giving them too much or maybe they found better or maybe they're just tired of you and so they walk away. We're all born alone and we're all meant to go alone. If anything you're the one making it sound cut and dry. Are you trying to convince me if you had someone you'd stay or yourself? I think whether you had someone or not, you'd still be there with the shotgun. Plenty of people who killed themselves had someone and they still did it. You're not any different.

Never said it wasn't harder, that's been my entire point. That "love" doesn't fix or change anything. It won't make you suddenly want to live. It won't make you not suicidal. It's the same result because this isn't the movies or the books. "Love" doesn't fix everything. It barely scratch the surface. That was specifically for those that think there problems would be solved if they could just have sex or be in a relationship.

I don't want to discuss this right now but thank you for being polite about it and trying to have a respectful discussion, I appreciate it.

Not trying to cop out or anything it's just really late and I have a headache, I might come back tomorrow. I'm not in a very good headspace for an intelligent discussion like this at the moment if that makes sense

sorry for the rambling / general weirdness it's like 2 am. Good night, I hope you have a good day/night wherever you are

 

[ijustwishtodie]

No, I'm not an incel. I don't have a sex drive meaning that I don't want to have sex

 

[Ashu]

Never said it wasn't harder, that's been my entire point. That "love" doesn't fix or change anything. It won't make you suddenly want to live. It won't make you not suicidal.

This is just rhetoric. I'm suicidal when I don't have love and I'm not suicidal when I have love, and this is true of many people.

 

[Roseate]

Let a thousand flowers bloom.

This is just rhetoric. I'm suicidal when I don't have love and I'm not suicidal when I have love, and this is true of many people.

Then it's insecurity and a lack of self love. If you love yourself you won't depend on someone love to be happy. It shows that you never were loved as a child or you were neglected or mistreated as a child so you look to other people for love. It's not healthy or normal. It shouldn't be normalized. That's problematic and it's hard for people like you to ever truly be in a healthy relationship, I bet you also depend on their love for your own feelings, right? If they don't give you love, will you be sad or angry or does it affect your moods? Sounds like you need therapy and to learn to truly love yourself. People take advantage of people like you and they enjoy it because it's easy and no one should have that much control over you. Also if that sounds judge mental, that is not my intention at all but it isn't healthy tho. You should think about seeing someone for that, for your peace of mind. I've never felt suicidal because I wasn't loved and it didn't really change my depression, it was easier to hide it and easier to use people to not feel it (distract myself) but it was always there, love or not. I was always depressed and suicidal. Also, not everyone wants toxic abusive relationships and no one wants to heavily deal with someone emotions, it becomes toxic when you depend on someone so much for your own emotional well beings and normal people definitely can't handle that, and depressed people don't have the energy for that. It's not rhetoric. It's just some of us have seen all the toxic relationships we can deal with and it's not cute when you've seen it all your life. It's not cute when you're an adult in a toxic relationship. It's not cute at some point because it gets old and tiring and annoying and exhausting and just childish.

 

[hopemeetshopeless]

TLDR: I suck and am too shallow to be with anyone that would be willing to date or love me, so I deserve to be and die alone.

I voted no, but the answer is I "kinda am". As in: I could get laid or have a girlfriend if I really wanted to. I guess I am just kind of extremely picky in partners and have a type and if someone isn't that type I genuinely have 0 interest in them whatsoever. Some would say that I'm shallow. I guess in a certain context or from a certain angle that I could admit I am. I treat everyone with respect. But I couldn't have sex with or date someone I'm not attracted to. There are other things that matter. And I don't expect do date supermodels or anything delusional. Idk. I just know what I like. Then on top of that I don't approach women, ever. Every woman I've ever been with showed interest and flirted with me first (not bragging I can count on less than 2 hands the women I've been with which is not a lot). So combine being kinda picky with high standards in certain aspects (while I'm not great looking, just ok, when I was working low income, shitty car, barely took care of myself) so they aren't missing out on anything is my point and I understand that.

TLDR: I suck and am too shallow to be with anyone that would be willing to date or love me, so I deserve to be and die alone.

I voted no, but the answer is I "kinda am". As in: I could get laid or have a girlfriend if I really wanted to. I guess I am just kind of extremely picky in partners and have a type and if someone isn't that type I genuinely have 0 interest in them whatsoever. Some would say that I'm shallow. I guess in a certain context or from a certain angle that I could admit I am. I treat everyone with respect. But I couldn't have sex with or date someone I'm not attracted to. There are other things that matter. And I don't expect do date supermodels or anything delusional. Idk. I just know what I like. Then on top of that I don't approach women, ever. Every woman I've ever been with showed interest and flirted with me first (not bragging I can count on less than 2 hands the women I've been with which is not a lot). So combine being kinda picky with high standards in certain aspects (while I'm not great looking, just ok, when I was working low income, shitty car, barely took care of myself) so they aren't missing out on anything is my point and I understand

It's not quite that simple though. I also have severe anxiety and the mental health issues don't help anything. no one wants to date a depressed person. well not this depressed person.

 

[pyx]

Then it's insecurity and a lack of self love. If you love yourself you won't depend on someone love to be happy. It shows that you never were loved as a child or you were neglected or mistreated as a child so you look to other people for love. It's not healthy or normal. It shouldn't be normalized. That's problematic and it's hard for people like you to ever truly be in a healthy relationship, I bet you also depend on their love for your own feelings, right? If they don't give you love, will you be sad or angry or does it affect your moods? Sounds like you need therapy and to learn to truly love yourself. People take advantage of people like you and they enjoy it because it's easy and no one should have that much control over you. Also if that sounds judge mental, that is not my intention at all but it isn't healthy tho. You should think about seeing someone for that, for your peace of mind. I've never felt suicidal because I wasn't loved and it didn't really change my depression, it was easier to hide it and easier to use people to not feel it (distract myself) but it was always there, love or not. I was always depressed and suicidal. Also, not everyone wants toxic abusive relationships and no one wants to heavily deal with someone emotions, it becomes toxic when you depend on someone so much for your own emotional well beings and normal people definitely can't handle that, and depressed people don't have the energy for that. It's not rhetoric. It's just some of us have seen all the toxic relationships we can deal with and it's not cute when you've seen it all your life. It's not cute when you're an adult in a toxic relationship. It's not cute at some point because it gets old and tiring and annoying and exhausting and just childish.

i don't understand why you feel the need to project your own experiences onto others who are suffering, coupling that with an armada of assumptions which you need to further deflate their problems. fundamentally the needs of men and women seem to be vastly different here (i am assuming that you are a woman).
you would think that those who are incapable of entering into any sort of commitment purely because they believe that it will lead to something toxic would be sufficient reason for death, no? what do you expect them to do once they have failed on all fronts? change something which isn't dependent on themselves? try endlessly to masquerade as socially capable people when they are anything but? "well, you simply haven't tried enough!" it's equivalent to telling the suicidal to simply pull up their bootstraps and work harder to be happy.

relationships are social proofs, and if you are incapable of forming them, this indicates an innate failure of some sort; and the need to form relationships is a biological imperative, so it isn't simply just a construct, but an inescapable fact of the civilian values which we are all complicit in, whether we like it or not.

the problems of men and women are very different. there is almost no reconciliation on this topic aside from inane vitriol heading under the banner of common sense or empathy; ablative conjecture that picks apart and deflates issues with pet-theories and pseudo-reasoning