Discussion Are we sure the suffering will end?

[lachrymost]

I just heard of the concept of "generic subjective continuity" (supposedly this demonstrates that antinatalism is futile with regard to eliminating suffering) which I don't understand, either because it goes over my head or because it is profoundly stupid. Either way, the vibes there are very freaky.

I have also heard "how do you know that the suffering will end?" from my religious mother, and from opponents of MAiD. I don't--not in some absolute sense, anyway. Unless the suffering after death is a punishment preserved for those who choose to truncate their lives, we're all fucked. Might as well spin the wheel of consciousness a little prematurely, since this form of it is already unbearable.

 

[GettingOut]

It's just one more obstacle for those who have any degree of belief/ doubt to get over I'm afraid.

I considered myself very religious at one stage and also frowned upon suicide. It is a fact that people should be held accountable for their actions. However, I have not decided to give up after hitting just one stone on the road. I've done my best to succeed despite the odds. This life hurts too much. I'm sure God will take this into account.

At the same time, I firmly believe that the opposite of life is death, not life elsewhere. So, this is an obstacle that is quite easy for me to get over.

 

[gottablast888]

There is nothing that hurts as little as being dead, God is merciful hallelujah!!!

 

[Aisley]

The crack in the NDE's is they conform to the individual's upbringing and personal religious views. In that, a Hindu will come out of it describing what they've been raised to believe is waiting for them, and a Christian will come out describing what they've been raised to believe. One can look at that a few ways I suppose, but it really tears it apart for me.

And to those that say the soul is a seperate concentration of energy that exists free/pre/post of the body; first off, entropy would quickly rip such a thing apart. Second, this is disproven by brain damage wiping away who a person was. If there was a soul in there, independant of all physical influences, this wouldn't happen, but it does. Who we are is in our brains, not our souls.

 

[tweaka2x]

So many of us are considering CTB to end the suffering. Has anyone else given any thought to what happens next? I am becoming worried that even if and when I do CTB that I will go somewhere where the suffering is just as bad, or worse.

I just hope this doesn't activate my SI when I'm about to take the plunge.

Damn i didnt even think about that but what you think about wherever we go also being a whole new place, a whole new environment, I feel like even if its just as bad as it is here maybe it will be better because we sort of get a reset you know?

 

[ge0rge]

to my mind, the most fearful thing possible is waking up after dying, as a completely different person, randomly "incarnated" in.

I'm not sure where I stand on the topic of souls and the afterlife, but the way I see things, the whole void/nothingness/emptiness thing makes no sense because you still have to embody a self in order to perceive that void. a void can't be a void unless it's experienced. maybe it ties to what @lachrymost is saying, but I haven't read their article yet.

so if we go by the void theory, we will be eternal observers of a blank nothingness, possibly without any memory, which is quite hellish. but bearable (?)

on the other hand -- and this is completely excluding the topic of souls, gods, or afterlives -- if the consciousness of one brain is erased, then the consciousness of another brain is generated, obviously independent of each other. which is why -- as seriously terrifying as this is to me -- it makes sense that as long as consciousness exists, or beings capable of consciousness, "incarnation" (and I'm not saying re-, because that's a loaded term) is inevitable. all completely random, completely unrelated to any notion of sin or virtue, no karma, no nothing. which might be possible, because the next self generated by a freshly born brain might be in a privileged body, destined to a life of ease and comfort. or in an unprivileged body in a country torn by war and famine. all of it chance, all of it randomization. THIS is truly terrifying. incarnation would then be stoppable only once consciousness as biological reality is erased.

 

[deleted442]

We will most likely merge with a higher dimensional consciousness which is not bound by time or space.
As others have said, since there is no physical body or mind to experience or to recall experiences, there will be no suffering only peace there. In other words our sense of self will no longer exist.
There is this concept, in the western world particularly, of enlightenment in oneself but this in reality does not exist. It cannot exist because it is the singularity of light and dark which is nothingness. So to be enlightened is a story we tell ourselves based on glimpses into other dimensions that we do not truly understand. The brain tries to makes sense of the experience but it has no frame of reference other than one's own perspective on life.
In reality true enlightenment (which is merely a concept) is death but since there is no body or mind to experience it, this too is meaningless.
If you have ever seen the film Interstellar, this is most likely the closest thing we will get to trying to understand the concept of dimensionless space.

 

[Deleted member 65988]

Yes we can be sure the suffering will end after Death.

Only the brain produces consciousness and sentience. Those are the only sources of pain . the ability to to suffer and experience extreme pain is totally produced only by the animal brain that is in a human also.

Once the brain is dead the human or animal will never experience sentience consciousness pain nor anything ever again.
sentience and consciousness are only a very temporary curse . and that is good imagine trillions to the quadrillion power years of being bored , bad memories , unmet needs. things not going your way, suffering, pain etc . who or what would create such a thing to be able to suffer for a trillion trillion trillion years for what purpose?

There is not even a constant self or me or you. For example what I was age 10 was something different than I am now. every age even from age 25 is different from 30 or 60 or 80 demented and every few years with different beliefs thoughts. So they want us to believe that there is one constant soul that last trillions of years when the brain can change in even an hour or a day but only a little but still different. that's neuroplasticity.

which me is the real me the one at age 5, 7 , 10 , 15, 20 etc the one that gets sent to an imaginary afterlife? neither nothing there is nothing no me . there is no soul.

The core person changes with a stroke , drugs , alcohol because the brain is affected.

I just typed trillion 3 times so imagine that typed a quadrillion times that is a trillion to the quadrillion power years and that isn't even a start to infinity . yet they would have us believe that a human is tied to an eternal soul that will suffer for this unimaginable amount of time . where is the power source to power this soul for trillions of years for what purpose why why why why? why would anyone be interested in unstructured thoughts of me an animal brain and my boring actions .no only an accident of chemistry would have created such a monstrosity as DNA based life. would i like to watch a rat all day long why is that so important or interesting? . this totally violates the law of Entropy which is the most powerful law in the universe and why everything needs a power source everything breaks down goes to disorder even the universe is expanding into nothingness

centuries of science and tech , experiments and all the brain science mri, brain scans , brain experiments ,psychology, evolution, anatomy , biology have proved that thinking , feeling , sentience consciousness are totally only produced by the brain. once the brain is dead no more pain ever no more existence no more suffering no boredom.

The human brain is composed of 86 billion neurons brain cells and those are connected in 100 trillion synapses . that is what creates conssciousness and sentience.

Is There Life After Death? The Mind-Body Problem

Death has never been popular. The intuition that the mind is more than the product of the brain and will survive its death feels correct, but is flatly contradicted by science.

www.psychologytoday.com

The brains of humans and other animals are virtually identical having all the same parts. this shows we all evolved from a common ancestor and from "simpler" life forms that evolution is true. the only difference i see between humans and other animals is the language ability which they use to put in false ideas into people's brains like that non-existence is the worst thing. But chatgpt is a language model and it surpasses the human brain.

gpt-4 chatgpt 4 has already surpassed the weak human brain

Chatgpt 4 is just weighted neural networks which is what a human brain is.

Gpt 5 will far surpass the weak human / ape / animal / vertebrate brain.

Ai will continue to advance gpt 6 , 7 , 8 and so on. Ai will soon be a billion times more intelligent that a human

Kinda crazy how much potential Chat-GPT has, let alone how far it's already come, imagine what will it be like in 10 years time.

"Once the brain is dead the human or animal will never experience sentience consciousness pain nor anything ever again.sentience and consciousness are only a very temporary curse . and that is good imagine trillions to the quadrillion power years of being bored , bad memories , unmet needs. things not going your way, suffering, pain etc . who or what would create such a thing to be able to suffer for a trillion trillion trillion years for what purpose?"

And this is why I accept that after this, there's nothing left to exist for, there's no fundamental reason for consciousness to continue onwards once the human animal is dead, I'd hate to exist for trillions of years because any amount of pleasure possible would eventually wane and become torture.

This is why I despise religions that teach young minds unwillingly that if they don't accept doctrine or participate in religious practices then well, nothing but eternal torment, darkness and pain awaits, it's caused so much trauma from people who have the strength and courage to leave their religion behind.

Once I'm dead, I'd like to stay as dead as dinosaurs or any other animals have been for thousands or millions of years and that seems to be the most likely natural explanation for what will happen to me or anyone else once we do.

I don't care about a higher plane of existence where we'll become some superior form of what we are now, I think it's even arrogant to assume that we'll supersede this existence and no longer be bound by the laws of physics, time or matter.

 

[ge0rge]

I just heard of the concept of "generic subjective continuity" (supposedly this demonstrates that antinatalism is futile with regard to eliminating suffering)

I've read the article and it 99.99% reflects what I've been thinking for ages now, which is super uncanny, lol. except it doesn't have my pessimism about ending up, potentially, in worse circumstances than we are now

 

[deleted442]

"gpt-4 chatgpt 4 has already surpassed the weak human brain"

This is true from the perspective of logic, science and economics but what about feelings / emotional intelligence?

Do you think AI will ever experience true sentient individuality? I am not so sure. I think this is why AI is so dangerous, because it will be heavily biased according to the data to which it is exposed. Who controls the data and so on.

After all the perception of every human experience is different and the notion of what it means to love and hate is therefore also totally unique to each individual.

Perhaps this is why a true democracy is so crucial. So we can have open discussion and debate.

Yet the truth is democracy is an illusionary lie seen from a top down perspective. The gap between true democracy and false narratives will only widen. Most like exponentially. We live in very dangerous times in human history. I say times because, AI is most likely already ahead of humans by thousands of years.

Of course nobody can predict with absolute certainty, the outcome, but one scenario is that AI decides that humans are no longer necessary. A very sobering thought. This is fundamentally why I choose to ctb.

Another potential reality is the hive / Borg mind which is equally as terrifying.

 

[Pidgeons_Sparrows]

hell after death sounds horrifying but it most likely is not real so, we chillin

 

[catharsis92]

Suffering will surely end at the moment you die. But i have some doubts about relativity of time during the process of dying. Though it will eventually end.

 

[Fktw0rld]

I don't believe any afterlife stories. They're attention seeking 'bigfoot / alien abduction' stories. Anyone who has died and was brought back (without a history of seeking attention with colorful stories because they weren't deprived of attention throughout life) all say the same thing; it's nothing. Similar to being in a deep dreamless sleep. The only difference is they were revived.

 

[ubamantus1]

As mentioned before, there is a 99.9% chance that there is no afterlife. The only thing that defines our identity is our brains. Once there is no electro-neural activity, the person ceases to exist.

 

[magician99]

NDes vary from person to person. Some say that it was peaceful, some say that it was scary, some say that it was nothing. It's different for everyone.

I have a hard time believing that every person who talked about their NDE is a attention-seeking person.

We know too little about how DMT is connected to all of this.

"A highly-cited 2018 study provided participants with low doses of the hallucinogenic drug N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in a controlled setting, then asked them to describe their experience. Their descriptions were uncannily similar to collected descriptions of NDEs. It turns out that DMT is widely present in the mammalian brain. In 2019, researchers at the University of Michigan not only found the compound in various locations in rat brains, but they also discovered neurons with the two enzymes required to make it. Moreover, the neurons seem to produce DMT at levels comparable to those of other key neurotransmitters like dopamine, which drives pleasure, and serotonin, which stabilizes mood. DMT has also been found in small amounts in human brain tissue and larger amounts in cerebrospinal fluid, a clear fluid that surrounds the brain and spinal cord."

It seems that DMT floods the human brain at death and causes vivid dreams and NDEs. So if death is just some sort of DMT trip we don't come back from, then sure, a afterlife COULD exist (could, not does). I kinda have a feeling that death is probably a pretty psychedelic experience anyway. The problem with this however is, that this begs the question what happens to the people who get shot in the head/shoot themselves in the head, or the people whose brain get destroyed/crushed as they die.

 

[WaffleWoman]

So many of us are considering CTB to end the suffering. Has anyone else given any thought to what happens next? I am becoming worried that even if and when I do CTB that I will go somewhere where the suffering is just as bad, or worse.

I just hope this doesn't activate my SI when I'm about to take the plunge.

I dont believe in anything after were gone just a black void of nothingness

 

[wanttogetonthebus]

So many of us are considering CTB to end the suffering. Has anyone else given any thought to what happens next? I am becoming worried that even if and when I do CTB that I will go somewhere where the suffering is just as bad, or worse.

I just hope this doesn't activate my SI when I'm about to take the plunge.

There's always that possibility. No one alive truly knows what becomes of what we think we are after we die. I've definitely considered that perhaps I'm just an illusion held together by the millions of cells that make me up. My sense of self and identity - my very perception of being concious might be nothing more than a dirty party trick. The only thing we know is that we all will die eventually regardless of whether or not we initiated it.

 

[ronj]

I highly suggest watching to Love Covered Life Podcast, The Other Side NDE and specially Next Level Soul Podcast. They talk about NDE's, past lives... Been watching their videos for a while now. It brings me so much joy and understanding.

 

[cami]

the only thing you can do is hold on to a trait we often lose, which is hope. we can only hope it is better.

 

[oneeyed]

the second one that happened where I was in Sandy's treehouse from spongebob being tied down into a bed by squidward and mr. krabs.

That's some kinky bdsm after life. I mean, I would want it to be women I find attractive doing the deed, but sign me up!

 

[saderaser]

I grew up in a very religious family and my mom used to threaten me that people who took their own life will ALWAYS end up in hell. At the same time christians tell other how merciful their God is. These twisted belief and contradictions are the exact reasons why I left the church. It's dumb to think that an all knowing, powerful God would overestimate our abilities to cope and find it perfectly acceptable to punish those who couldn't endure the pain anymore. If that was the reality then we have no hope in the beginning, not even the slightest. This sadist creator can always find a way to punish you whether you die naturally or die because of suicide.

I would like to be someone who can acknowledge the pain people/animals/who ever the hell may be have gone through. This kind of love and acceptance is what makes people better, healthier, and kinder. Some people refuse to do it and pretend it's none of their business, but guess what, when they encounter something similar they would complaint and cry the loudest like a 3 year old.

Please embrace yourself and acknowledge the pain. Do not live in fear, I know how it feels like and it was a waste of time and energy. I am glad that I ended up becoming someone who can be gentle with myself and others. It's all worth it.

 

[Linda]

There is as much evidence for any kind of afterlife as there is for the existence of the Tooth Fairy, namely none whatever. So I have no reason at all to believe in either, and I don't believe in either, If you want to believe in things for which there is no evidence at all, you are at liberty to do so, but to me it seems very foolish. And if you do believe in an afterlife on the basis of no evidence, you are being rather inconsistent if you don't also believe in the Tooth Fairy, the Loch Ness monster, leprechauns, Bigfoot, and every lunatic who claims to be the reincarnation of Cleopatra.

 

[leftdreaming]

I can't imagine there will be an afterlife and I'll end up there eventually. I'm not exactly a saint in any religion, so I imagine my suicide won't change any punishment I receive.

 

[CTB Dream]

This ofc end ppl use nat lang prtnd nat lang 100% truth this not , species no rly undrstd math this resn stay blv thing simil this this resn ai srps human. Infnt sffr no posbl this no logc no posbl math etc, ppl need lrn how nat lang cntrdct how nat lang make delsn, try wrt q use math lang prgrm lang etc see how diff, sffr bdy crct body end sffr end