Discussion Are there even rational arguments against CTB?

[Mistergeburt]

Hey, I was often wondering if there were actual rational arguments against suicide.
Personally I think suicide or death itself is rational, and so is living is based on a (neccessary) delusion. But I'm also guilty of arguing with someone who's depressed - but I've never given them rational arguments for actually keep living. I mean, it worked and they're still alive and even in a relationship with me, but mostly I feel like it weren't the actual arguments, I was just someone who was consistently being there for them. All I did was giving them a new perspective and love, never REAL arguments.

Some people on the internet will say empty phrases like "If you die, you don't know what you're missing out" (FOMO only exists when you're alive, so why would I care if I'm missing out?). Or "You will be better if you just hold on" (again, I can also end it and I'm better - FOMO only exists when you're alive). "Feelings won't be eternal" (But if I ctb right now, the feelings are also gone). "Keep living for the sake of other people" (is a powerful emotional reason, but not a rational argument imo as this won't fix the problem).

I mean, there are philosophical frameworks and moral that could attempt to measure how much a live is worth and if suicide could be morally acceptable, but they are not FACTS, they're just built on top of a lot of assumptions that many people would agree with. Take utilitarism for example. If suicide creates more suffering than it resolves, it is morally wrong, but who's going to measure that? Is your suffering greater than that of the one's who grieve over you (if anyone)? If you didn't ctb, maybe you would have caused more suffering for others.

So are there any reasonable arguments against ctb?

 

[ijustwannabeloved]

no

 

[dirkw83]

Well, a big one is that self-CTB is pretty damn risky in most cases.

 

[Mistergeburt]

Well, a big one is that self-CTB is pretty damn risky in most cases.

Do you mean "risky" in a personal manner, like you're going to have disabilities in case you survive?
But it's not really an argument against the concept of suicide, but rather against the act of ctb by yourself.
I mean, it's a great reason (not in the sense of being scared to do it), not to do it, but it's more like an argument why you shouldn't fail to ctb.
But otherwise, I mostly agree. The question is tho, how much does risk affect how rational a decision is? At what risk percentage would an act be irrational? Assuming the threshold would be >50%, then this would mean, methods that have a higher success rate than 50% would be rational, right?

 

[moriix]

Hey, I was often wondering if there were actual rational arguments against suicide.
Personally I think suicide or death itself is rational, and so is living is based on a (neccessary) delusion. But I'm also guilty of arguing with someone who's depressed - but I've never given them rational arguments for actually keep living. I mean, it worked and they're still alive and even in a relationship with me, but mostly I feel like it weren't the actual arguments, I was just someone who was consistently being there for them. All I did was giving them a new perspective and love, never REAL arguments.

Some people on the internet will say empty phrases like "If you die, you don't know what you're missing out" (FOMO only exists when you're alive, so why would I care if I'm missing out?). Or "You will be better if you just hold on" (again, I can also end it and I'm better - FOMO only exists when you're alive). "Feelings won't be eternal" (But if I ctb right now, the feelings are also gone). "Keep living for the sake of other people" (is a powerful emotional reason, but not a rational argument imo as this won't fix the problem).

I mean, there are philosophical frameworks and moral that could attempt to measure how much a live is worth and if suicide could be morally acceptable, but they are not FACTS, they're just built on top of a lot of assumptions that many people would agree with. Take utilitarism for example. If suicide creates more suffering than it resolves, it is morally wrong, but who's going to measure that? Is your suffering greater than that of the one's who grieve over you (if anyone)? If you didn't ctb, maybe you would have caused more suffering for others.

So are there any reasonable arguments against ctb?

i really dont think a "rational" or "objective" answer is even possible here. for each human the value of their life is deeply personal to them and as you said, depends on subjective factors and experiences. for example, someone with a terminal illness or a lot of chronic pain may deeply value life so suicide will not be rational for them. on the other hand there are a lot of people who are deeply unhappy despite okay physical circumstances so ctb may be a rational choice for them if they have tried everything and nothing helped. convincing someone that life is objectively worth it and suicide objectively is not is a futile pursuit, it is something that has to be understood and experienced by the person themselves. so I think giving that person your love and perspective was the best thing you could do in that situation, really.

the only rational argument I can think of against ctb is that you will die regardless so there really is no rush to ctb right this second. (but even that can be countered by saying that living longer will produce more suffering--but does that objectively matter? after death, you won't be ruminating on how much suffering or happiness you experienced. you will just not exist.) there is also a non-zero chance that the afterlife, if such exists, will be much worse than your current life. we still dont know 100% what actually happens to our consciousness when we die.

i really hope some of my ramble made sense xD what this conversation reminds me of is normal people's averse reactions to philosophies like antinatalism--they value their lives so deeply that the thought of not existing being objectively preferable is deeply abhorrent to them. these people may have experienced a lot of suffering themselves but their brain has enough healthy delusion to find their life valuable regardless. i wish I could be like that, honestly

 

[PsychedeliaSuicide]

I think you misunderstand a little about philosophical framework. Philosophy itself is trying to get to the bottom of reason with the least amount of fallacy and most rationale, rather the opposite of what you say about facts, and I think you just disagree with the stance of utilitarianism (which is fair, considering how flimsy it is). Your question itself is a philosophical question. So there are technically rational arguments; say, very generally, in natural law: your natural and biological necessity is to self-preserve and survive, so suicide is irrational trying to go against that. I think most people believe this approach when it comes to suicide (especially unconsciously, since it's from biological instinct), and so many philosophies work based on it.

I doubt anyone here is going to find anti-suicide arguments actually sound. To me, the most anti-suicide ideas I have are that I think suicide is a violation of self-will and moving of suffering. Still, I overall do agree suicide is more rational than irrational, and believe in the Stoic thought about it.

 

[FuneralCry]

No, and for me ceasing to exist will always be the positive solution to find peace from this terrible, torturous existence that I just always saw as a mistake that just causes all this harm and suffering all for the sake of it, existence to me will just always be an abomination that never should had been imposed and for me only never suffering again is desirable.

Nothing would make me wish for the torturous, futile burden of existence where there is no limit as to how much one can be tortured, there are no disadvantages to permanent non-existence where all is gone and forgotten yet the suffering in this dreadful world is endless and existing is just completely unnecessary in the first place. It's just so terrible how humans impose this existence at all, all they do is cause all this torture and suffering there was never a need for and all that existence ever does is just torture existing beings.

 

[EDDIESTERS]

not really, the only problem is for it to fail and you suffer more than before. otherwise, nothing will matter if youre dead, as you wont be alive to experience it.

 

[Forever Sleep]

The only philosophical problem that causes me slight concern is that- we don't know for sure what happens after death. Whether there is an afterlife or not. Whether that afterlife can be affected negatively by suiciding. Obviously- there is the religious angle to consider. Some religions seem to condemn suicide as an act of self murder.

We can theorise that religions are all manmade but- can we be absolutely sure? Asides from the religious beliefs even- we know we are capable of dreaming and, we know some people experience very vivid NDEs. Will the act of suicide trigger a nightmarish state for us? And, how long will it feel like we are trapped in it?

It's all a bunch of unknowns ultimately- because no one has been able to tell us what happens after a successful suicide- long-term anyway.

Are we escaping the chip pan and falling into the fire or, is it really an escape into nothing or, something else? The problem is- we are hinging our decision on our own beliefs. If those beliefs aren't certain in any direction, that can cause concern.

I agree with you over the potential for living arguments though. Presumably- we've experienced enough of life to make a more rational decision here. Over whether life is worth fighting for. The probability of things improving. How much strength/ motivation we have to keep going and keep trying to turn things around. We're surely more qualified to judge how we feel about this life.

I personally wouldn't discount suicides affect on others quite so easily either. I imagine many people (including me) feel trapped here because of that one. While it's not necessarily a rational reason to want to live. Our loved ones may not be effective at supporting us- despite their best efforts/ intentions. It may be that they are tethers here- rather than supports. Still- the need to not hurt them can be huge. So- while they may not make us want to live exactly- they can prevent us from feeling like we can die and put them through that. Isn't it logical to not commit an action you believe may devastate the life of someone you care about?

 

[telekon]

I mean, there are philosophical frameworks and moral that could attempt to measure how much a live is worth and if suicide could be morally acceptable, but they are not FACTS, they're just built on top of a lot of assumptions that many people would agree with. Take utilitarism for example. If suicide creates more suffering than it resolves, it is morally wrong, but who's going to measure that? Is your suffering greater than that of the one's who grieve over you (if anyone)? If you didn't ctb, maybe you would have caused more suffering for others.

So are there any reasonable arguments against ctb?

I mean, the FACT and the rational argument is that life is magical. Music is magical, food is magical, colors are magical, sex is magical, games are magical, movies are magical, nature is magical, drugs are magical, and even the pursuit of knowledge is magical. The magic itself is mostly based on things harmonizing together, and we should have others to share our selves and our personalities with.

But the argument for ctb comes from when life loses its magic and there's no way to get it back. Somewhere around that point, death becomes magical.

Sometimes it just feels like living is hopeless, but then the person gets to experience pleasure again eventually. Also, we are tasked to try and do something for the world however we might be able to, so that other people can experience more pleasure over suffering. Unfortunately the world is mostly filled with cunning greedy fools that would rather create cheap knockoffs of what used to be good so they alone can have more money and the rest of their own society suffers. In this way, society, or the world itself is committing suicide, not us. Or would it be homicide? Are the rich and the money-motivated actively killing the lower classes in the pursuit of their own wealth? I would say so. But it's suicide because we are all connected, so any homicide on a global scale is technically killing itself.

We could easily solve all of the world's major issues, like homelessness, drug addiction, poverty, mental health, etc. We have the money, energy and knowledge to do so currently. But we don't, and that's due to greed and selfishness of those currently in power.

 

[Mistergeburt]

I mean, the FACT and the rational argument is that life is magical. Music is magical, food is magical, colors are magical, sex is magical, games are magical, movies are magical, nature is magical, drugs are magical, and even the pursuit of knowledge is magical. The magic itself is mostly based on things harmonizing together, and we should have others to share our selves and our personalities with.

But the argument for ctb comes from when life loses its magic and there's no way to get it back. Somewhere around that point, death becomes magical.

Sometimes it just feels like living is hopeless, but then the person gets to experience pleasure again eventually. Also, we are tasked to try and do something for the world however we might be able to, so that other people can experience more pleasure over suffering.

What an interesting view. Thank you for your reply, I really like the way you describe this, but in the end, this "magic" you're talking about, seems to be subjective, doesn't it? Can subjective things be rational? Because they can't be measured. But only because something can't be measured, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Or maybe it can be measured by analyzing brain activity, but how would brain activity be weighted. So generally, I can't say if it's really rational or not, but I can say, that I like your view. And what makes life magical without an observer?

Unfortunately the world is mostly filled with cunning greedy fools that would rather create cheap knockoffs of what used to be good so they alone can have more money and the rest of their own society suffers. In this way, society, or the world itself is committing suicide, not us. Or would it be homicide?

I almost agree, but I truly believe that the world isn't mostly filled with "bad" people. But I think, the people with most of the power are the most bad ones, it seems. And also bad people are much louder, making them more visible. There are a lot quiet good people out there I believe. But yes, capitalism rewards competitive and selfish acts over community and I hate that. But although the system rewards those, there are still a lot of people with moral and good values - but unfortunately they're probably not rich and not "mighty". But I completely agree with your views.

 

[rainatthebusstop]

Honestly, I think the idea of suicide in itself is too emotionally loaded to ever be seen through rational lens. This is just my perspective, and I am no Socrates but both life and death are inherently irrational in the ways we can actually observe them because everyone's perception of rationality is coloured by a trillion little things such as experiences, emotions, cultural background ect.
So there's no true measurable argument against suicide outside of failure statistics because that's the only thing you could prove with numbers.
Given that most people are culturally unable to actually handle the prospect of their loved ones dying, this gets supplemented by appeals to emotion.

I don't think choosing to die is a rational choice. I don't think staying alive is one either.
Or rather, they are as rational as one another.

 

[Dandelion's]

Nope there isn't!

It's the same logic as gambling, you might be happy in the future, you might not suffer as much and you'll maybe even cure your depression. (very unlikely if you are on this forum)

 

[pony No.2]

Not my words, but some people think it'll get better (that depends on several factors, many that are out of your control), think your life is valuable (until you don't want to work or make any money), and that you should stay around to see if it gets better or to see if you're happy in the future (and then in a few more years you can decide to kill yourself if you aren't, probably).

But the argument that seems to be the most widely accepted is, many people don't think those who commit suicide are making a rational choice in their "right mind" and that they're killing themselves in the heat of the moment and aren't aware of what they're doing, which is bullshit, especially if you've been suicidal and depressed for years.

 

[zoidberg]

Rational arguments against suicide:
- probably going to fail and be worse off than before trying
- this life is a one time deal, existence is a miracle of very low probability for you...don't waste it
- the outcomes you will not see after dying: pain and suffering of your family/friends, traumas, copy cats, shame and guilt by those left behind who did not intervene
- all the time, money and capital that was poured into your success...wasted
- potential for your ending to inspire others to do the same
- for all of the above and simple instinctual reaction against self termination, society makes it extremely hard to find 'easy' ways to CTB without a violent ending
- of the violent endings, if they don't work and you survive, pain and suffering are sure to follow
- survival instinct makes it difficult and next to impossible to take the final step into oblivion
- perhaps even suffering is preferable to nonexistence, at least one still has choices

 

[isthisit?]

Things seem worse short term then they actually are. By making ctb okay, you are promoting impulsive reactions

 

[dragonofenvy]

There's 2 reasons that I can think of.

The first isn't asking "Why shouldn't I die?" but rather "How certain am I that my philosophy is complete?" If there is a meaningful chance that your philosophy is missing something. One's worldview is not a fixed state. It develops in response to new experiences, evidence, and reflection. Many philosophers have revised their views over the years. It doesn't mean it's wrong, it means it isn't necessarily final.

Do I think this to be a strong argument? Not really.

The second I will steal from Albert Camus. I don't know exactly what his quote was, but Camus, despite saying suicide was the central philosophical question, argued against it. His reasoning is that if the universe is indifferent, then suicide grants victory to that indifference. His answer is to revolt. Live despite the absurdity; to create meaning through your actions rather than discovering it already waiting. If you're searching for it, you'll not find it. He believed that we should live in spite of life's absurdity. You don't fight cosmic indifference; you rebel against it to give your life internal purpose and refuse to collaborate with that absurdity.

Yeah, I surrendered to the universe's indifference. So what? Will the universe care? Will I care? I like Albert Camus, but I'm not sure I agree with him on this one. Maybe some of you guys here would agree with him though.
I do think he, along with other existentialists are correct in saying that purpose and meaning is constructed, not discovered. Life may be objectively meaningless, but that doesn't mean it has to be subjectively meaningless. Suicide is done when your life is subjectively meaningless. Anything that is subjective can be changed, however.

 

[wehamuho]

that ur loved ones get hurt.

yeah, tell me about my "loved" ones. they who were poor as shit so openly just had me to care bout them when old. the ones brought disabled me to an shithole, with no safety net "becauze future". that gave a shit bout me when found i was disabled and cant work cuz its totally ok!! when THEY did the SAME to ME for THEM but the plan foiled so i was useless to them. i live in a shithole country and helps are a joke, u can't work???i get fucked. im no one. im alone cuz my problems dont let me participate in society, individualistic af, that nobody is willing to help me and proudly say no one owes me anything? like i had to feel better?? and i have to care about a family, and the rest of people, that treats me like shit and thinks im a waste of a fuck? if you think i shouldnt kms cuz "my loved ones get sad", from the bottom of my heart, go fuck yourself, and hope one day u are in this situation.