Are there currently too many anti-russian resentments? (Warning highly polititcal!)

[noname223]

If you are annoyed by politics maybe you should ignore this thread.

One of my friends compared the current anti-russian resentments with the anti-muslim resentments which were present after 9/11. First of all I absolutely condemn the cruel war from Russia against Ukraine. It is the fault of Russia or rather Vladimir Putin's. There are A LOT of sanctions against Russia. The Russian population has to bleed for the actions of their leader. I personally can understand why the sanctions not only should hurt the oligarchs but the whole country. There are some groups who advocate the Russian people should not suffer and only the rich. I can understand that this is not fully possible If they want to hurt Russia very deeply. They have to force the country to insolvency. I would probably do the same. In my opinion this is the best strategy.

On the other hand I absolutely see that the situation is dangerous for Russian people. They have to justify themselves for the actions of a dictator. Many have not voted for Putin and would prefer liberal democracy. I probably would not find the courage to protest publicly against Putin. You can go to prison for up to 15 years. I admire the people who find the strength to do it. We should always keep in mind we also hurt these people with the sanctions. Though I think the bankruptcy strategy is the best one. The best thing would be to replace Putin. But this is probably only a naive dream.

I absolutely dislike the general suspicion against Russians in other countries. We should not stigmatize them. Most of them are innocent. I am not sure whether I find it good that so many companies leave Russia. This hurts mostly civilians.

What are your thoughts on that? And sorry for the potential culture war which might start in this thread. I suppose I am the aggressor.

 

[Sherri]

A bit offtopic but they (Russia) destroyed the biggest airplane in the world, the Antonov, wasn't flying, was just resting at its base, what harm a cargo plane can do? The name of the airplane was called Myra ( Ukrainian Dream) the biggest aviation in history gone, just like that…. look how impressive it was. Helped take food for many countries where people were short on medicine and starving in Africa during those days. Took most Masks and vaccines to Europe. Hope one day they can rebuilt an ever bigger one.

 

[archipelago]

I've been thinking about this too. I don't like the idea that we should villainize Russian civilians, especially those who want nothing to do with war. FFS I saw a photo of a Russian cultural centre vandalized where I live - a place that had nothing to do with pro-Russian political or pro-war sentiments, it was a community centre. It just doesn't sit right with me. Same shit after 9/11, same shit towards Asians after covid hit.

We can understand that the invasion on Ukraine is wrong while also understanding that we shouldn't demonize an entire country's population. I hate that way too many people see these things as mutually exclusive. They're not.

 

[Lost Magic]

The Russian people are heavily oppressed. A lot of journalists and citizens who have voiced their opinions against the government have been either jailed or killed. Only the bravest protest because of the fear of deadly repercussions. I mean it is a dictatorship state instead of a democratic one. I put most of the blame on Putin and the people close to him. There was no need for this invasion, in my opinion.

 

[Myl]

tbh at this point there should probably just be a megathreads for russia/ukraine stuff.

It is really ridiculous the sanctions and all the companies leaving meanwhile your average westerner is cheering on these peoples lives being destroyed just because of where they live.
How can you possibly expect the russian people to ever trust the western world again after they completely isolate them and destroy their economy?

 

[Smart No More]

In war or conflict of any kind people naturally take sides. Its not always done with all the info considered so it's true that the side effects of this come in collateral damage to people undeserving of hate. I think, with this in mind that the bigger question should be... do we take/judge things on individual merit? The answer in many cases is unfortunately no.

It's common knowledge that the citizens of Russia are victims of manipulation and propaganda so I think they have more chance than most citizens of invading countries to be seen in a forgiving and accepting light.

We should never judge citizens on the acts of their governing bodies unless they are supportive of their atrocities.

 

[Chinaski]

It's common knowledge that the citizens of Russia are victims of manipulation and propaganda so I think they have more chance than most citizens of invading countries to be seen in a forgiving and accepting light.

It's not "common knowledge" as much as it is the collective infantilisation of the average Russian citizen by those in the west because it ties in nicely with the century-long notion of Russia being totalitarian to the point of brainwashing and an innate inability to form an independent thought, this fallacy is in turn dished out to us as propaganda which neatly augments our leftover cold war prejudices, the reality is that whilst Russian dissent is aggressively managed and information is heavily controlled by those who govern it's a lazy and patronising view to perceive Russians as being incapable of critical thinking.

 

[summers]

For all you members in countries where you can't own guns, this is what happens. Your governments can do whatever they want, and no one can oppose them. People are worried about school shootings, gang violence, and those minor incidents. Putin's Russia is what you're signing up for, because what can you do? Throw rocks at tanks and soldiers? In the US, there are 100 civilians who are expert marksmen for every Chris Kyle in the military.

People should control their governments. The government works for the people not the other way around. But most of this world is full of sheep that let their governments take away the people's power over the government.

 

[Chinaski]

People should control their governments. The government works for the people not the other way around. But most of this world is full of sheep that let their governments take away the people's power over them.

Tbf l think you're not on great territory here, when it comes to overthrowing their rulers the Russians have a stronger track record than most imo.

 

[Depressed Cat]

I saw a photo of a Russian cultural centre vandalized where I live - a place that had nothing to do with pro-Russian political or pro-war sentiments, it was a community centre.

Russian Cultural Centres abroad are institutions that are owned and operated by the Russian regime, specifically the Russian Foreign Ministry. That's how it is in most places, unless it happens to be privately owned (rare). Like Russian embassies and consulates, they also represent the Russian regime.

Having said that, I agree with you that one shouldn't villainise ordinary Russian civilians who have nothing to do with the regime or the mafiocrats, and certainly not the few thousands that are courageous enough to protest in the streets against Poo-tin's barbaric invasion.

 

[GenesAndEnvironment]

People should control their governments.

 

[Lost Magic]

For all you members in countries where you can't own guns, this is what happens. Your governments can do whatever they want, and no one can oppose them. People are worried about school shootings, gang violence, and those minor incidents. Putin's Russia is what you're signing up for, because what can you do? Throw rocks at tanks and soldiers? In the US, there are 100 civilians who are expert marksmen for every Chris Kyle in the military.

People should control their governments. The government works for the people not the other way around. But most of this world is full of sheep that let their governments take away the people's power over the government.

you think the American government works for the average Joe American with a gun? lol

 

[Red Scare]

For all you members in countries where you can't own guns, this is what happens. Your governments can do whatever they want, and no one can oppose them. People are worried about school shootings, gang violence, and those minor incidents. Putin's Russia is what you're signing up for, because what can you do? Throw rocks at tanks and soldiers? In the US, there are 100 civilians who are expert marksmen for every Chris Kyle in the military.

People should control their governments. The government works for the people not the other way around. But most of this world is full of sheep that let their governments take away the people's power over the government.

People with their pea shooters would be powerless to stop a well equipped military that has drones and nukes.

 

[Lost Magic]

People with their pea shooters would be powerless to stop a well equipped military that has drones and nukes.

 

[Red Scare]

While I don't support Russia's war of aggression and occupation, I just feel bad for all the innocent and uninvolved people caught up in this who are just trying to live their lives.

Despite Putin's cynical propaganda claims to be liberating the Ukrainian people, the fact is that far right wing and white nationalism are a serious problem in Ukraine. The people in charge of their government are tied to neo nazi groups, and white nationalist and ultra nationalist groups with ties to the same people who helped nazi Germany. Ukraine had many nazi sympathizers and they jumped at the opportunity to join the SS and participate in pogroms and other crimes against humanity. Today they continue their attacks on lgbt people, immigrants, feminists, Jews, Roma, and ethnic Russians living there... it is a mess. The Ukrainian government does nothing, and they have been embracing the help of several other far right and white nationalist groups around the world. Far right people from the USA are in Ukraine right now and they think they are getting combat experience so they can come back and terrorize people in the USA. They are scared about becoming a minority by 2045, and they feel that white people are being displaced by immigrants and that their "culture" is being lost because the population is becoming more diverse, and less religious. They use arguments like "Ukraine for Ukrainians" and "Europe for Europeans" and try to act like they are just enthusiastically embracing national pride, but there is a far more sinister agenda being carried out.

None of this justifies what Russia is doing, but I hate how the western media and especially the USA are ignoring this aspect of things and how the situation developed in the Ukraine. Of course it is the innocent people and refugees fleeing the violence that suffer the most. I feel bad for anyone honestly just trying to live their lives and having to be caught in between far right white nationalists, and a crazy invading regime like Putin.

P.S. If anyone is interested National geographic has a show called Trafficked and on one of the episodes from this past season the lady did a whole episode about white nationalism, she traveled to ukraine and spoke with some of the right wing people there, they are fully embracing white nationalism. Some of these people are criminals, one man is wanted in California but he moved to the Ukraine where he has been embraced as a popular white nationalist personality with a podcast and following, he's an unabashed white nationalist and pushes toxic masculinity as some kind of ideal. I personally wouldn't mind if this guy gets killed in the conflict, I wouldn't cry any tears for people like that.

 

[summers]

People with their pea shooters would be powerless to stop a well equipped military that has drones and nukes.

Um, we have all the same rifles used by the military. ar15, ar10/m110, 338, 50 cal. True, we don't have Predators or tanks. But plenty of police and sheriffs departments have armored vehicles. At least some would stand with the citizens.

Also, you really think most soldiers are going to fire on citizens? Officers swear to uphold the constitution, not the orders of the president. They swear an oath to the American people, not the government.

Oath of Commissioned Officers

I ___, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God. (Title 5 U.S. Code 3331, an individual, except the President, elected or appointed to an office of honor or profit in the civil service or uniformed services)

 

[Red Scare]

Also, you really think most soldiers are going to fire on citizens?

Wouldn't be the first time.

And as for some police stations being with the people, I doubt it. Their entire job is to uphold the capitalist system of private property, and enforce the rules put in place by our oligarch overlords.

 

[Lost Magic]

Um, we have all the same rifles used by the military. ar15, ar10/m110, 338, 50 cal. True, we don't have Predators or tanks. But plenty of police and sheriffs departments have armored vehicles. At least some would stand with the citizens.

Also, you really think most soldiers are going to fire on citizens? Officers swear to uphold the constitution, not the orders of the president. They swear an oath to the American people, not the government.

Oath of Commissioned Officers

I ___, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God. (Title 5 U.S. Code 3331, an individual, except the President, elected or appointed to an office of honor or profit in the civil service or uniformed services)

Oh please, your cops have been brutalising protestors and killing innocent civilians for years. Your constitution doesn't mean shit anymore. The only reasons Capitol Hill got attacked is because they were under-prepared and Trump encouraged it. After that event, there has been even more laws to tighten security including facial recognition and further surveillance. The American government are not afraid of their people nor would they allow them to fight against them. Period. And if you were going to fucking fight for something you should have fought against all those illegal wars that took place and went on for decades. Your country is on fire and you are more divided than ever. Sorry but It has to be said. You are not as free as you would like to think you are. It is an illusion of freedom and tbh a lot of countries are just as bad if not worse.

 

[Chinaski]

Um, we have all the same rifles used by the military. ar15, ar10/m110, 338, 50 cal. True, we don't have Predators or tanks. But plenty of police and sheriffs departments have armored vehicles. At least some would stand with the citizens.

Lmao honestly, cops in the UK don't have guns but the battle of Orgreave, where cops rocked up en masse to clobber the living fuck out of striking workers, is still within living memory and given how many deaths of working class people our uniformed public servants have clocked up *without* firearms it's fair to say they ain't on the side of the prole.

 

[Smart No More]

It's not "common knowledge" as much as it is the collective infantilisation of the average Russian citizen by those in the west because it ties in nicely with the century-long notion of Russia being totalitarian to the point of brainwashing and an innate inability to form an independent thought, this fallacy is in turn dished out to us as propaganda which neatly augments our leftover cold war prejudices, the reality is that whilst Russian dissent is aggressively managed and information is heavily controlled by those who govern it's a lazy and patronising view to perceive Russians as being incapable of critical thinking.

I didn't say they fall for it. Just that they're highly thought policed. I'm not talking about foegiving them because they know not what they do. I'm saying they're not necessarily to be assumed to be advocates of the actions of their government. My personal opinion is that many of rhem are far from incapable of critical thinking. They're just unable to display it without consequencem that was what I was driving at.

 

[WrongPlaceWrongTime]

People will always demonize the whole race/ethnic group for the actions of their leaders, whether or not the members of that group support or oppose those actions. It's part of how most humans are generally programmed

 

[Chinaski]

I didn't say they fall for it. Just that they're highly thought policed. I'm not talking about foegiving them because they know not what they do. I'm saying they're not necessarily to be assumed to be advocates of the actions of their government. My personal opinion is that many of rhem are far from incapable of critical thinking. They're just unable to display it without consequencem that was what I was driving at.

But you described them as "victims of manipulation and propaganda", which tbh is the usual atlanticist rhetoric about every nation they seek to liberate. I now appreciate this may not have been what you are driving at but it does rile me how Russian state-controlled media is seen as an effective lobotomising technique whereas western media, messaging exclusively on behalf of the billionaire class and to whom our governments are universally in hock, is presented as some liberating beacon of impartial truth.

 

[Smart No More]

But you described them as "victims of manipulation and propaganda", which tbh is the usual atlanticist rhetoric about every nation they seek to liberate. I now appreciate this may not have been what you are driving at but it does rile me how Russian state-controlled media is seen as an effective lobotomising technique whereas western media, messaging exclusively on behalf of the billionaire class and to whom our governments are universally in hock, is presented as some liberating beacon of impartial truth.

I can see why you might misinterpret my post but you can consider me an exception to the rule. Maybe it would have been simpler if I'd left the post at "everything on individual merit". That encompasses my take on things. Could seem a little vague though.

 

[Disappointered]

It's weird that people can be lied to so much so often to the point that it even ends up being exposed (albeit after the fact) and yet they still choose - or perhaps need - to ascribe trust and credibility to their thought leaders. That said, I'm not sure that Victoria Noodleman (a Straussian neocon...) was lying when she found herself forced to admit to some sort of "outrageous conspiracy theory" about a biowarfare program that included labs in Ukraine.

Like everyone else on the planet save a tiny minority, I don't really know what's going on but I do think it's credible that some basic agreements in Minsk were sabotaged by those who run Ukraine, that NATO is being used for something obviously different that its stated purpose and that if you know your choice is to surrender your sovereignty or fight and you choose sovereignty you probably want to strike first when it's not expected. Thanks neocons.

I obviously don't envy anyone who has to be caught in the middle of a war but I have a hard time buying the whole "Putin's a psychotic megalomaniac" line. I would be surprised to discover that this war isn't supported by most Russians and equally surprised if the jingoistic pro-Ukrainians (who seem to be more about being anti-Russian actually) with the loudest voices wouldn't be vocally supporting the invasion if they had happened to be Russian.

 

[WearyHSP]

t is really ridiculous the sanctions and all the companies leaving meanwhile your average westerner is cheering on these peoples lives being destroyed just because of where they live.

OMG I've not seen or heard that!

 

[Quiet Desperation]

My thoughts are that there is a difference between the actions of a corrupt government and its oligarchs and the resulting consequences its people endure. Just because you oppose the former doesn't justify generalized bias against the latter. It's unfortunate that such retaliation was necessary, but sometimes when a country cannot hold it's own government accountable its own citizens end up paying the price.

That is one of the many dangers when a government is no longer representative of the will of the people. We in the US are already beginning to see serious issues with unrepresentative minority rule in our courts, the US Senate, and in the electoral college. Authoritarianism is in our future if we don't do something about our media literacy, the wide dissemination of false propaganda, and our outdated and unrepresentative election procedures.

 

[whatevs]

I imagine this was a logical military target from their point of view. It might have been used for transporting arms and supplies, and at any rate if it is the biggest of it's kind in the world and a symbol for Ukrainian pride it also serves as demoralization.

For all you members in countries where you can't own guns, this is what happens. Your governments can do whatever they want, and no one can oppose them. People are worried about school shootings, gang violence, and those minor incidents. Putin's Russia is what you're signing up for, because what can you do? Throw rocks at tanks and soldiers? In the US, there are 100 civilians who are expert marksmen for every Chris Kyle in the military.

People should control their governments. The government works for the people not the other way around. But most of this world is full of sheep that let their governments take away the people's power over the government.

Amen. "Come and take it". I expect great things from you, North Americans, when they tighten their totalitarian squeeze. Putting clowns like Drumpf as spearheads of the resistance won't work in the future. He already got booed and abandoned by many for his endorsement of the injections.

People with their pea shooters would be powerless to stop a well equipped military that has drones and nukes.

You are missing the point. Because the civilians are armed, they would resist, get slaughtered and spark more uprising among people on the fence and those in the police and military that had the vestige of a conscience.

Nukes would never be used in this context.

Oh please, your cops have been brutalising protestors and killing innocent civilians for years. Your constitution doesn't mean shit anymore. The only reasons Capitol Hill got attacked is because they were under-prepared and Trump encouraged it. After that event, there has been even more laws to tighten security including facial recognition and further surveillance. The American government are not afraid of their people nor would they allow them to fight against them. Period. And if you were going to fucking fight for something you should have fought against all those illegal wars that took place and went on for decades. Your country is on fire and you are more divided than ever. Sorry but It has to be said. You are not as free as you would like to think you are. It is an illusion of freedom and tbh a lot of countries are just as bad if not worse.

Someone else that isn't reading the situation well. The "Capitol attack" was something very, very positive, and the climate of tension and division is a sign that those that can see are ready to be mobilized, even if they are lead by controlled opposition. The same thing is going to happen in every country, NPCs vs right wingers allied with conspiracy theorists.

 

[WearyHSP]

None of this justifies what Russia is doing, but I hate how the western media and especially the USA are ignoring this aspect of things and how the situation developed in the Ukraine.

I watched the "Trafficked" episode because I try always to educate myself.
There's only a brief snippet about US white supremacists training in Ukraine. In the snippet the Ukrainian government sent a US supremacist/Nazi home when they learned about his activities. That makes it clear the government isn't supporting or even condoing the white supremacy.

I doubt there are accurate polls of the percentage of Americans who are white supremacists compared to Ukrainians. It seems to me that Putin could use the same excuse to invade the US if population rather than government is the measuring stick for nazism.

I'm clearly not an expert on this. Given the episode you suggested, that was my takeaway.

 

[Red Scare]

She interviewed the one Ukrainian guy who had white nationalist literature.

She also interviewed one guy that is wanted in California who is living there, putting his fliers and stickers everywhere. That guy was quite obviously a white nationalist. It make me wonder if that is typical of the kind of American that is leaving to go to Ukraine atm.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

The people in charge of their government are tied to neo nazi groups, and white nationalist and ultra nationalist groups with ties to the same people who helped nazi Germany. Ukraine had many nazi sympathizers and they jumped at the opportunity to join the SS and participate in pogroms and other crimes against humanity. Today they continue their attacks on lgbt people, immigrants, feminists, Jews, Roma, and ethnic Russians living there... it is a mess. The Ukrainian government does nothing, and they have been embracing the help of several other far right and white nationalist groups around the world. Far right people from the USA are in Ukraine right now and they think they are getting combat experience so they can come back and terrorize people in the USA.

I didn't want to comment on this because I am already tired of arguing with people...but I can't help myself. I'd be brief.
I am an ethnically Russian, Russian-speaking, lesbian feminist that lived her entire life in Ukraine. No one ever attacked or threatened me based on either of these characteristics, if you don't count offensive jokes, and no one I know has ever been seriously attacked for any of the reasons listed above. I never feared the government. I've never personally met a single honest-to-God white supremacist. Met a couple far-right guys that really hate Russians voting for Putin, but even they didn't have a problem with me being ethnically Russian or Russian-speaking. I don't have a slightest clue who the famous American Nazi guy that came here is, never heard of him in my life, so I guess he must be famous only within a very specific circle of people. Most people who took any part in WWII for any side are dead, so they cannot attack anyone anymore.
So I guess the documentary is kind of blowing things out of proportion here.