Venting Apparently, if someone is forced to the hospital by no choice of their own, they are responsible for the bills

[TAW122]

Just saw this on Reddit and just seeing this, let alone the comments and replies boils my blood!! So basically, a poor guy who had a concerned friend ask and check on him to see if he is ok and just because the guy didn't respond immediately, the 'concerned friend' called 911 (emergency services) on him and it resulted in him having to go to the hospital (he couldn't refuse) and then ended up with an ambulance that should never have been there in the first place! I would hope that guy cuts the 'concerned friend' out of his life and never talk to him again. I know I would, but not only that, I would do everything I can (legally) to not have to pay for the ambulance (and or other hospital/medical related bills) because not only was that unjust, it was forced on that person.

It's akin to saying that, "Hey, you don't have a choice to refuse xyz and instead we'll force it on you and then stick you with the bill afterwards, teehee!" If that isn't rage inducing suicidefuel and ragefuel, then I don't know what is.

The OP of the thread, u/tuneuped

A few weeks ago, I was feeling depressed and a friend called 911 on me out of concern when I didn't respond to a text right away. I refused medical care when they came because it was a mistaken call, but the EMTs (along with police who arrived on scene) said that I had "no choice" but to come with them in the ambulance out of protocol. But I'm now getting voicemails from the ambulance company asking me to call back to give insurance details or set up a payment plan -- what should I do? Is there any way to get it waived?

They don't have any info on me except a name and the phone number -- address was a friend's place at the time that I'm no longer staying at. I currently am unemployed and have no way of paying for this, and I doubt that Medicare will pay for something like "suspected suicide attempt," even if I didn't make the 911 call.

They also didn't do anything to me other than let me sit in the ambulance and check blood pressure at the hospital. It was about a 13 block ride, and all they did was have psych ward ask some questions upon arrival and then let me go.

Oh and the thread gets even better (I'm being a bit sarcastic here), as some of the replies are just pure rage and suicide fuel along with some stupidity mixed in. Check out this emt guy's response to another poster's question.

u/Kraven_howl0

How do you refuse it when police are telling you that you HAVE to do it?

u/ScottLux

If you literally refuse to the point they take you in handcuffs you have a stronger case to make the state pay for it.

u/Kraven_howl0

It's just dumb you'd even have to fight the case. That means people can call in fake suicidal watches, right?

u/ScottLux

Absolutely. If you wanted to screw someone over you could call in a bogus suicidal watch, they would have to pay for it, and you would be immune from civil liability by statute.

So then of course, the guy u/emtgreg19 comes in to spew some maybe true/not true garbage.

This is false. Second and third party reports are not the deciding factor. The person in question has to admit suicidal ideations, have injuries consistent with self harm, or openly display behavior that suggests suicidal or homicidal thoughts.

So then, u/ScottLux responds with:

I've had a hard enough time getting paramedics/police to allow me to sign letters refusing ambulance delivery from a simple accident scene where I had very minor injuries (I ultimately took a cab to my primary care doctor instead), let alone a situation where I was suspected of being a threat to commit violence.
No matter how the person is responding the police are almost certainly going to take the callers' word as gospel and take the person in as they'd be afraid of the infinitesimal chance they let someone go only for that person to commit some major crime like a Columbine HS situation and they get blamed for not stopping it.

And u/emtgreg19 says:

Again. This is false. One of the greatest things about this country is individual autonomy. A person has the right to make their own decisions, even if they are stupid ones as long as they have mental capacity and are not under the influence of alcohol or drugs. If the police took every persons word as "gospel" as you put it, there would be ALOT more people in jail/prison. Believe it or not, people don't always tell the truth. A person who is having claims made against/about them have the right to tell their "side" of the story, and then a decision is made. One can not just go around telling unsubstantiated stories to the police/public safety about others and expect the person to be taken away based on word of mouth only. Period.

And freedom, individual autonomy my ass.

So yeah, as you can see, this is the problem with the healthcare system, especially in the US and the way they handle suspected suicidal people. It's bad enough to already have your rights trampled on and shitted on, then to be slapped with an ambulance, hospital, medical bill is just kicking the person while he/she is down. Absolutely atrocious system and society. Granted this was several years ago, but this shit is still standard practice even in fucking 2020.

Other comments have stated that there is little (or no) safeguards against this kind of (potential) abuse of services. If some malevolent party or individual wants to fuck someone over, it's all too easy and very damaging. Therefore, imho, there should be more checks and balances as well as more rights for the patient/suspected suicidal person (even after the fact if it really is an REAL emergency) to get redress and set things right. However, I don't see that in reality and even so, it's difficult to get (any) justice for the patient.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[faust]

I think the best proof to your words would be to read this article.

Man shows shocking health care cost of his attempted suicide

An attempt at suicide could cost you more than your life: An Oklahoma man shared an image to Twitter of his one-week, $93,000 hospital bill after an attempt to take his own life. Oliver Jordan, 21,…

nypost.com

I think if I had such a bill, I would never decide to stay after first unsuccessful attempt.
This is silly, is it a kind of taxation of people who are suicidal?
Pro-lifers will never mention that, they believe that these magic doctors will heal their wounds and make it better.
But... Can they explain... How a suicidal person can live further with a 5-digit debt?

 

[alizee]

You don't have to pay the bills.

Furthermore, nobody in the healthcare system cares if they're wrong you. Be it financially or with lifelong side effects from treatment they deemed necessary for whomever is now misfortunate because of it. The healthcare workers just follow they system otherwise they would be without a job.

Eventually when you declare your'e not paying the bills. It will go to a debt collector and who will attempt to bring it to court. You can challenge the debt by claiming no contract was ever signed and that you never agreed to what is being claimed as debt owed.

 

[faust]

You don't have to pay the bills.

Furthermore, nobody in the healthcare system cares if they're wrong you. Be it financially or with lifelong side effects from treatment they deemed necessary for whomever is now misfortunate because of it. The healthcare workers just follow they system otherwise they would be without a job.

Eventually when you declare your'e not paying the bills. It will go to a debt collector and who will attempt to bring it to court. You can challenge the debt by claiming no contract was ever signed and that you never agreed to what is being claimed as debt owed.

Hmm, depending on the country that might be a good idea. However, this may require a good amount paid to a lawyer and not everybody has such amount of money right now. An option might be a bankruptcy, but only in the case if you have nothing to give away.

 

[alizee]

Hmm, depending on the country that might be a good idea. However, this may require a good amount paid to a lawyer and not everybody has such amount of money right now. An option might be a bankruptcy, but only in the case if you have nothing to give away.

Bankruptcy can be declared after losing in court.

In all cases anyone who isn't going to be able to pay unjust medical bills can still represent themselves in court. Even if it's never advised to represent yourself in court, it's still better than not contesting the debt and having a default judgement in favour of the debt collector.

 

[TAW122]

Bankruptcy can be declared after losing in court.

In all cases anyone who isn't going to be able to pay unjust medical bills can still represent themselves in court. Even if it's never advised to represent yourself in court, it's still better than not contesting the debt and having a default judgement in favour of the debt collector.

Good point, and I do believe should I ever find myself in such a situation, I would quit my job (not currently employed) because not only would I not wish to have wages garnished, but why the hell would I contribute towards a society that is unjust and couldn't give two shits about me while screwing my over financially and socially? (rhetorical question).

If I had assets, we'll I'd get rid of it. If I had lots of money, I'm going to spend it. Of course, all of this would happen before a judgment or court order is rendered. In reality though, I wouldn't necessarily go straight to the nuclear option (declaring bankrupty, not paying, and other underhanded tactics) as a first resort though. I would go through the proper channels like talking to billing, negotiating and seeing how low I can go (with minimum payment) while I take time to sort the whole situation out (if I have a job, quit it, if I had assets, sell it and/or remain as poor as possible). As of my current situation, well I'm considered rather poor.

After things are sorted, well as said before, I would NOT want to support such a fucked up society so by quitting a job (or getting fired if such a commitment was disruptive enough to affect employment - namely long term stays), going broke, but enough to carry out CTB... then go ahead and CTB. I did mention in another thread/post that if I were ever treated like that, it would be the singular (or rather non-singular) reason that I would proceed to CTB because the singular reason is actually two separate reasons merged into one.

 

[Despairing]

America is such a fucked up place. Its like a dark humour. You attempted to end your own life so we will lock you up against your will then bill you with an extraordinarily overpriced not worth it bill you cant afford. The "people" profiting of this are sadists.

 

[TAW122]

America is such a fucked up place. Its like a dark humour. You attempted to end your own life so we will lock you up against your will then bill you with an extraordinarily overpriced not worth it bill you cant afford. The "people" profiting of this are sadists.

Indeed and it makes me very angry hearing about how these people can get away with a lot of stuff, nevermind the patient even trying to get 'justice' in an unjust and corrupt system. I have heard of stories of some patients retaliating in extreme ways (I don't condone their actions btw) and I understand why they do what they do. For example, this one story shows how far one can take their retaliation, especially when mistreated and with little or nothing to lose.

Stabbing rampage suspect at Pa. mental facility: ‘You ruined my life’

Police shot the armed man after he stabbed at least four victims at the Allegheny County facility.

www.wkbn.com

I don't condone his actions or behaviors, but I understand his motives and can empathize with why he did what he did. Here is what happened afterwards (years later). Of course, at that point, his life was already over so from his pov, he couldn't have lost more than what he already had (which wasn't much to begin with/left).

Man who stabbed 5 at Homestead mental health facility gets 30 to 60 years

JoAnn Latshaw spent years organizing medications for her patients at Turtle Creek Valley Mental Health. Now, more than two years after she was critically injured in Dustin Johnson’s 2016 stabbing spree at the facility, she cannot keep track of her own medications. “It’s frustrating to not be...

triblive.com

Oh and one more thing, it is ironic that society deems that the people who wish to CTB are mentally ill, yet if the same said person does something heinous (such as the guy in the article), said person isn't mentally ill but considered criminally liable. In short, wanting to CTB = mentally ill, but no CTB but hurt others = not mentally ill and guilty as charged, according to society.

 

[faust]

Indeed and it makes me very angry hearing about how these people can get away with a lot of stuff, nevermind the patient even trying to get 'justice' in an unjust and corrupt system. I have heard of stories of some patients retaliating in extreme ways (I don't condone their actions btw) and I understand why they do what they do. For example, this one story shows how far one can take their retaliation, especially when mistreated and with little or nothing to lose.

Stabbing rampage suspect at Pa. mental facility: ‘You ruined my life’

Police shot the armed man after he stabbed at least four victims at the Allegheny County facility.

www.wkbn.com

I don't condone his actions or behaviors, but I understand his motives and can empathize with why he did what he did. Here is what happened afterwards (years later). Of course, at that point, his life was already over so from his pov, he couldn't have lost more than what he already had (which wasn't much to begin with/left).

Man who stabbed 5 at Homestead mental health facility gets 30 to 60 years

JoAnn Latshaw spent years organizing medications for her patients at Turtle Creek Valley Mental Health. Now, more than two years after she was critically injured in Dustin Johnson’s 2016 stabbing spree at the facility, she cannot keep track of her own medications. “It’s frustrating to not be...

triblive.com

Oh and one more thing, it is ironic that society deems that the people who wish to CTB are mentally ill, yet if the same said person does something heinous (such as the guy in the article), said person isn't mentally ill but considered criminally liable. In short, wanting to CTB = mentally ill, but no CTB but hurt others = not mentally ill and guilty as charged, according to society.

This reminds me so much of 1 very loud case which happened recently.
That's about military, but we know that military is obligatory in Russia.
Same with psych wards anywhere else.
He was bullied and threatened to be raped, so he killed 8 people.

Russian army's hazing culture drove son to kill soldiers, says father

Ramil Shamsutdinov opened fire on eight fellow soldiers on Siberian military base

www.theguardian.com

If you are interested, there is one more Russian source.

Рядовой, убивший восемь сослуживцев в Забайкалье, рассказал о поборах и угрозах изнасилования. Его отец говорит о дедовщине, Минобороны все отрицает — Meduza

Солдат-срочник Рамиль Шамсутдинов убил восьмерых сослуживцев в Забайкальском крае из-за того, что ему угрожали изнасилованием. Как сообщает Baza, 20-летний рядовой Шамсутдинов рассказал в своих показаниях, что в воинской части 54160 в ЗАТО Горный у солдат отбирали деньги, а офицеры участвовали в...

meduza.io

 

[Despairing]

Indeed and it makes me very angry hearing about how these people can get away with a lot of stuff, nevermind the patient even trying to get 'justice' in an unjust and corrupt system. I have heard of stories of some patients retaliating in extreme ways (I don't condone their actions btw) and I understand why they do what they do. For example, this one story shows how far one can take their retaliation, especially when mistreated and with little or nothing to lose.

Stabbing rampage suspect at Pa. mental facility: ‘You ruined my life’

Police shot the armed man after he stabbed at least four victims at the Allegheny County facility.

www.wkbn.com

After he was sentenced for his rampage:

Man gets 30 to 60 years in Turtle Creek Valley Mental Health stabbing

Dustin Johnson pleaded guilty but mentally ill on five counts of attempted homicide in the Nov. 11, 2016, attack.

www.post-gazette.com

This reminds me so much of 1 very loud case which happened recently.
That's about military, but we know that military is obligatory in Russia.
Same with psych wards anywhere else.
He was bullied and threatened to be raped, so he killed 8 people.

Russian army's hazing culture drove son to kill soldiers, says father

Ramil Shamsutdinov opened fire on eight fellow soldiers on Siberian military base

www.theguardian.com

If you are interested, there is one more Russian source.

Рядовой, убивший восемь сослуживцев в Забайкалье, рассказал о поборах и угрозах изнасилования. Его отец говорит о дедовщине, Минобороны все отрицает — Meduza

Солдат-срочник Рамиль Шамсутдинов убил восьмерых сослуживцев в Забайкальском крае из-за того, что ему угрожали изнасилованием. Как сообщает Baza, 20-летний рядовой Шамсутдинов рассказал в своих показаниях, что в воинской части 54160 в ЗАТО Горный у солдат отбирали деньги, а офицеры участвовали в...

meduza.io

This reminds me of the movie full metal jacket.

 

[ohhgeeitsme]

Bankruptcy can be declared after losing in court.

In all cases anyone who isn't going to be able to pay unjust medical bills can still represent themselves in court. Even if it's never advised to represent yourself in court, it's still better than not contesting the debt and having a default judgement in favour of the debt collector.

Doesn't it cost quite a bit of money just to file bankruptcy too? Well, a lot if you have neither a job, nor money.

 

[TAW122]

Doesn't it cost quite a bit of money just to file bankruptcy too? Well, a lot if you have neither a job, nor money.

Good point, but I guess that probably means that one is 'judgment proof' and by that, it means even if the plaintiff wins (the debt collector), the plaintiff can collect nothing. I'm not a lawyer so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Erase.myself]

Fuck. I've been in and out of psych for years. I am thousands of dollars in debt due to insane medical bills owed, not even counting the $15,000 I owe to the government for school loans that I threw away on heroin 4 years ago. Now I am unable to get rent housing due to my credit score. Fuck this system.

 

[alizee]

Doesn't it cost quite a bit of money just to file bankruptcy too? Well, a lot if you have neither a job, nor money.

The debt collectors will have a tough time collecting anything if you cannot even pay to file bankruptcy. I would suggest if the cost of paying the medical bills happens to be less than filing for bankruptcy. Then go ahead and pay the medical bills because filing for bankruptcy is typically used for extreme circumstances and when the debt is longterm crippling.

 

[DoNotLet2]

Thank God here in Poland the medicine is paid out of taxes. You pay the same no matter how often you go to the doctor. The downside is it doesn't work properly.
Ehh so. They assume that everybody wants to live and some people just do otherwise because they do something against their will. For us it doesn't make sense but it does make sense for them.

 

[PickledTink]

That same thing happened to me yesterday. I now have a $2,500 bill I can't afford thanks to my deductible and ER copay. All thanks to some nosy fuck at my doctor's office. The cops took me to a hospital 40 mins from me and left me with no ride home. It's messed up and very wrong.

 

[disabledandhopeless]

Yes.. will be responsible for own bills. They won't forget to take your money.

 

[InterstateFlowers]

This is literally terrifying. Thank god I'm still under my parent's insurance. I can only imagine the insane amount of dread seeing a bullshit amount that you can't pay after trying to kill yourself but failing.

 

[itsamadworld]

Just saw this on Reddit and just seeing this, let alone the comments and replies boils my blood!! So basically, a poor guy who had a concerned friend ask and check on him to see if he is ok and just because the guy didn't respond immediately, the 'concerned friend' called 911 (emergency services) on him and it resulted in him having to go to the hospital (he couldn't refuse) and then ended up with an ambulance that should never have been there in the first place! I would hope that guy cuts the 'concerned friend' out of his life and never talk to him again. I know I would, but not only that, I would do everything I can (legally) to not have to pay for the ambulance (and or other hospital/medical related bills) because not only was that unjust, it was forced on that person.

It's akin to saying that, "Hey, you don't have a choice to refuse xyz and instead we'll force it on you and then stick you with the bill afterwards, teehee!" If that isn't rage inducing suicidefuel and ragefuel, then I don't know what is.

The OP of the thread, u/tuneuped


Oh and the thread gets even better (I'm being a bit sarcastic here), as some of the replies are just pure rage and suicide fuel along with some stupidity mixed in. Check out this emt guy's response to another poster's question.

u/Kraven_howl0


u/ScottLux


u/Kraven_howl0


u/ScottLux


So then of course, the guy u/emtgreg19 comes in to spew some maybe true/not true garbage.



So then, u/ScottLux responds with:


And u/emtgreg19 says:


And freedom, individual autonomy my ass.

So yeah, as you can see, this is the problem with the healthcare system, especially in the US and the way they handle suspected suicidal people. It's bad enough to already have your rights trampled on and shitted on, then to be slapped with an ambulance, hospital, medical bill is just kicking the person while he/she is down. Absolutely atrocious system and society. Granted this was several years ago, but this shit is still standard practice even in fucking 2020.

Other comments have stated that there is little (or no) safeguards against this kind of (potential) abuse of services. If some malevolent party or individual wants to fuck someone over, it's all too easy and very damaging. Therefore, imho, there should be more checks and balances as well as more rights for the patient/suspected suicidal person (even after the fact if it really is an REAL emergency) to get redress and set things right. However, I don't see that in reality and even so, it's difficult to get (any) justice for the patient.

What are your thoughts on this?

I had that happen to me. I overdosed on many things in my 20's almost was successful! in my attempt... I could see the light. My brother's gf found me....I want to call her a name, but I won't...... The ambulance came and drove me to a hospital where I had my stomach pumped and i almost choked on my vomit, is what i was told. I had a job with health insurance though....which i lost due to being forced into an institution! And I had a $1000 dollar ambulance bill, no job. THen I had a $2000 and some change bill, for the institution! I think....I don't even know what the bills was for actually for, but I know the whole caboodle was around $3000 dollars! and I lost my JOB...

 

[Epsilon0]

So, if you don't succeed with the first attempt, the health care system makes sure they give you a good reason to try suicide again because you are now depressed and drowning in debt.

It makes sense.

 

[BitterlyAlive]

At my job I sit with suicidal patients to make sure they're safe. I always feel horrible because 1) the rooms in the psych hall are small and have no windows and 2) i can't help but imagine the horrific bill they're about to receive, whether they're trying to get help or were forced to be hospitalized...it's sickening.

Side note: yeah, the job is kind of a "conflict of interest" considering I'm suicidal too. But it's nice to be able to be there for someone whose feelings I can understand, and to just be there to listen to them. Everyone deserves to feel valued and heard.

 

[Otter]

L

At my job I sit with suicidal patients to make sure they're safe. I always feel horrible because 1) the rooms in the psych hall are small and have no windows and 2) i can't help but imagine the horrific bill they're about to receive, whether they're trying to get help or were forced to be hospitalized...it's sickening.

Side note: yeah, the job is kind of a "conflict of interest" considering I'm suicidal too. But it's nice to be able to be there for someone whose feelings I can understand, and to just be there to listen to them. Everyone deserves to feel valued and heard.

Love your avatar!

 

[BitterlyAlive]

L
Love your avatar!

Ahhh thank you ❤ That made my morning.

 

[Vanity]

Shit like this will actually drive someone to suicide

 

[TAW122]

Shit like this will actually drive someone to suicide

Yeah, or in rare cases, like the one mental health patient (and a few others) that went ballistic and attempted to murder/maim the people who were responsible for making his life worse.

Stabbing rampage suspect at Pa. mental facility: ‘You ruined my life’

Police shot the armed man after he stabbed at least four victims at the Allegheny County facility.

www.wkbn.com

Man who stabbed 5 at Homestead mental health facility gets 30 to 60 years

JoAnn Latshaw spent years organizing medications for her patients at Turtle Creek Valley Mental Health. Now, more than two years after she was critically injured in Dustin Johnson’s 2016 stabbing spree at the facility, she cannot keep track of her own medications. “It’s frustrating to not be...

triblive.com

I don't condone his actions, but I understand why he did what he did. Either way, his life is already fucked and from his pov, he had nothing else to lose (maybe something to gain - in prison).

But back to the point though, most patients who come out who don't recover either lead worse lives and/or eventually just CTB due to new problems on top of their existing problems (that weren't solved).

 

[Genetics]

Just saw this on Reddit and just seeing this, let alone the comments and replies boils my blood!! So basically, a poor guy who had a concerned friend ask and check on him to see if he is ok and just because the guy didn't respond immediately, the 'concerned friend' called 911 (emergency services) on him and it resulted in him having to go to the hospital (he couldn't refuse) and then ended up with an ambulance that should never have been there in the first place! I would hope that guy cuts the 'concerned friend' out of his life and never talk to him again. I know I would, but not only that, I would do everything I can (legally) to not have to pay for the ambulance (and or other hospital/medical related bills) because not only was that unjust, it was forced on that person.

It's akin to saying that, "Hey, you don't have a choice to refuse xyz and instead we'll force it on you and then stick you with the bill afterwards, teehee!" If that isn't rage inducing suicidefuel and ragefuel, then I don't know what is.

The OP of the thread, u/tuneuped


Oh and the thread gets even better (I'm being a bit sarcastic here), as some of the replies are just pure rage and suicide fuel along with some stupidity mixed in. Check out this emt guy's response to another poster's question.

u/Kraven_howl0


u/ScottLux


u/Kraven_howl0


u/ScottLux


So then of course, the guy u/emtgreg19 comes in to spew some maybe true/not true garbage.



So then, u/ScottLux responds with:


And u/emtgreg19 says:


And freedom, individual autonomy my ass.

So yeah, as you can see, this is the problem with the healthcare system, especially in the US and the way they handle suspected suicidal people. It's bad enough to already have your rights trampled on and shitted on, then to be slapped with an ambulance, hospital, medical bill is just kicking the person while he/she is down. Absolutely atrocious system and society. Granted this was several years ago, but this shit is still standard practice even in fucking 2020.

Other comments have stated that there is little (or no) safeguards against this kind of (potential) abuse of services. If some malevolent party or individual wants to fuck someone over, it's all too easy and very damaging. Therefore, imho, there should be more checks and balances as well as more rights for the patient/suspected suicidal person (even after the fact if it really is an REAL emergency) to get redress and set things right. However, I don't see that in reality and even so, it's difficult to get (any) justice for the patient.

What are your thoughts on this?

Cool, don't pay. File bankruptcy. Screw them.

Good point, but I guess that probably means that one is 'judgment proof' and by that, it means even if the plaintiff wins (the debt collector), the plaintiff can collect nothing. I'm not a lawyer so take it with a grain of salt.

It does but the US Bankruptcy Court will defer the filing fees for those with little of no income.

I personally have been forced to file twice for medical bill reasons. You can't file again in 9 years after discharge of your bankruptcy so make sure to list ALL your debts (except for government debts like student loans and back child support) on the bankruptcy not just the medical bill(s).

https://www.uscourts.gov/services-forms/bankruptcy

 

[PrincessInWhite]

This is literally terrifying. Thank god I'm still under my parent's insurance. I can only imagine the insane amount of dread seeing a bullshit amount that you can't pay after trying to kill yourself but failing.

your parents will still be stuck with those very high bills