Anyone find God?

[OnMyLast Legs]

When I left here about 8 months ago I posted about my reversion to Catholicism. People flamed the thread and it got locked.

When my mania came down after 200 days of belief (at least that's my interpretation) I apostasized and resumed mortal [=damnable] sins like cranking it to porn and badmouthing the faith.

Now, surprise, I want to CTB.

The religious (+ conservative + conspiracy theorist, honestly) worldview did keep me in a state of relative health and optimism. I was enlightened and on the side of good fighting evil!

But I just can't believe it's all true. I mean, really, Noah's Ark? A 6,000 year old universe? Scientifically we know how long we've been around. Unless the devil's REALLY up to something and all of modern science is a trick

I know most (or at least many) believers aren't young earth creationists, but that leads to another problem, which is that the Bible, the revelatory text from the perfect God who can never lie, is wrong. How could the religion still basically be true if the primordial history of Genesis isn't? I think YECs are right at least when they talk to other believers.

It would make no sense for God to tell a false story, then judge people for not believing it. Imagine going to judgment and finding the Lord weaselling around like believers: "Don't take it literally! It's about the gist of what I was communicating to unlettered people long ago. I created everything, just way differently than I said. Anyway, to the inferno with you."

Sorry if this has been unfocused. I'm considering jumping back into religion to get my mind working again, but I really can't, not honestly.

Has anyone else struck a balance with religious faith? What are your experiences?

When I reason it out it seems I just need to be a reddit style atheist because that's correct. If I'm going to rebuild my mind it needs to be on a rational basis. Anything else will fall through.

But I'll listen respectfully to other perspectives.

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

I fell into borderline religious psychosis a while ago, due to OCD and some deep-set religious trauma that I haven't unpacked. I was worried that it would happen again when I started my conversion to Judiasm (I'm ethnically Jewish, but wasn't raised it), but thankfully I managed not to!

What helped is that a lot of Jews have varying opinions on the Torah and Jewish living in general. Easier not to get caught in a cult mindset when everyone in the vicinity is allowed and encouraged to take what they want from their faith.

If you want to explore any form of G-d or religion, try finding a place that encourages thinking logically about the things you're told. Unitarian Universalists often have congregations that accept any faith and focus on community and religious education for example.

As for my thoughts on the bible/Torah being literal or not, I like to keep in mind the fact that it was written by flawed humans who were still trying to understand G-d's teachings and live in a stressful situation. A lot of "rules" in the Torah go back to survival at the time. Some sections of it are basically a multi-person diary of sorts. It's like a game of telephone to try and figure out what G-d actually meant (especially with all the mistranslations...)

 

[Cosmophobic]

I was raised Catholic and I took it quite seriously when I was a child. God as a watchful and punitive father figure is an idea that won't ever leave my mind completely. It even developed into religious OCD years ago.

I can never go back to embracing it because it's not a concept of God that I can even feel neutral towards. I can only feel contempt for it and I have to admit, some lingering fear that despite rejecting the idea with every fiber of my being that it still expresses a literal truth about our reality.

I understand still having the religious instinct. The burning questions that science can't help you with. Can there be a path for you between the extremes of bible literalism and reddit atheism?

In a way those two groups just throw up one set image of God and then proceed to argue over its existence.

 

[bgh3192]

Have you ever looked into Buddhism? Buddhism has a pretty clear moral code, which you seem to be searching for. Therevada Buddhism/"original Buddhism" is more of a philosophy than a religion. Like Christianity, Buddhism has many bastard off shoots that differ greatly from the original. The newer off shoots have incorporated mystic beliefs that I find unbelievable.
If you want to stay in the realm of Christianity, look into Gnosticism. Some scholars believe Jesus was more a Gnostic than a "Christian". Look into the apocrypha; books that didn't make it into the bible b/c they were "heretical". The early church fathers picked only texts that reinforced their patriarchal hierarchy-The council of Nicea. And of course King James took a whack at it. When you learn objectively about Christianity it really seems a little silly. The Bible has dozens of different versions that contradict each other. Riddled with error and mistranslation.

 

[OnMyLast Legs]

I suppose I need to learn some coping skills regardless, so Buddhist meditation isn't out of the question. As far as literal belief it kind of strikes me as Catholicism or nothing. If God existed he would put someone in charge to tell you what to believe, I think. I have no confidence in my ability to read the "holy texts" and make my own version. But if the whole Bible is inspired and inerrant and it teaches a young earth and Noah's Ark...let it go.

@Cosmophobic I get the lingering fear. I think of myself going to judgment right after my suicide with a soul wrecked by bad behavior. By a literal truth, do you mean just the religion being literally true? Or does it get something else across? I fear deeply that heaven and hell draw on an awareness of eternal recurrence--we really are stuck in something infinitely bad or good. Even if your life is 51/49 good, repeat that forever and it's infinite gain. 49/51 is infinite loss. Etc.

 

[itsgone2]

But I just can't believe it's all true. I mean, really, Noah's Ark? A 6,000 year old universe? Scientifically we know how long we've been around. Unless the devil's REALLY up to something and all of modern science is a trick

What's interesting is that the first priest I had was very practical about this. He explained that much of the Bible was not to be taken literally, that it was written for people at those times to understand. He said the details of Genesis weren't accurate obviously, but that God created the universe was. I'm not saying it's accurate, just that it probably depends on who you've encountered, in any faith I'd imagine. But what he said is the actual doctrine. He also said it was ok to believe in evolution, as long as you were talking about the human body. Just that the soul didn't evolve, that is from God.
I also feel the best times in my life were when I was close to religion and God. There are many good teachings if you follow them.
But then the ultimate question, why do bad things happen to good people? Many theories on why God allows this, but we can never know. Perhaps we get our answers when we leave this world.
It's hard for me to think there is nothing behind all this. Even if we started with the Big Bang, why? How did that come to be? Why start at all, let alone in that manner?
Sorry to get wordy. The concept of bad things happening to good people has really been bothering me. I know why I'm being punished, but for someone I know who was only a positive spirit, it just seems so cruel.

 

[OnMyLast Legs]

@itsgone2 It would be odd for God to mislead everyone into the 19th century. It's hard to argue about the "actual doctrine" absent an infallible decree but I think when you really get into it the Church's stance on Biblical inerrancy is too strong for "6 days = 13 billion years." And the tradition! All the Church Fathers thought they were on a young earth, St. Thomas Aquinas wrote about the six days of creation at length, etc.

As far as bad things and good people, isn't the starting point that we all deserve hell?

 

[itsgone2]

@itsgone2 It would be odd for God to mislead everyone into the 19th century. It's hard to argue about the "actual doctrine" absent an infallible decree but I think when you really get into it the Church's stance on Biblical inerrancy is too strong for "6 days = 13 billion years." And the tradition! All the Church Fathers thought they were on a young earth, St. Thomas Aquinas wrote about the six days of creation at length, etc.

As far as bad things and good people, isn't the starting point that we all deserve hell?

Well, it was into the 20th century, sort of. The Catechism is the source of official doctrine and it's generally recognized that in 1992 officially recognized that the Bible and science could be accepted together, as long as you recognize God as the creator. But even in the 4th century St Augustine taught that the six days were meant to be symbolic.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, I think that there are plenty of people who do strictly interpret the Bible literally, but it's not the official stance. Also the Church doesn't address it much; a typical mass won't discuss items like this.
Still though, much does trouble me. Perhaps all is revealed one day.

 

[Cosmophobic]

@Cosmophobic I get the lingering fear. I think of myself going to judgment right after my suicide with a soul wrecked by bad behavior. By a literal truth, do you mean just the religion being literally true? Or does it get something else across? I fear deeply that heaven and hell draw on an awareness of eternal recurrence--we really are stuck in something infinitely bad or good. Even if your life is 51/49 good, repeat that forever and it's infinite gain. 49/51 is infinite loss. Etc.

Eternal recurrence...another insidious brainworm. You've gotta be impressed with our ability to dream up eternal horrors because the temporal horrors just weren't enough.

But yeah I was talking more about the religion being literally true, eternal afterlife realms and all. It's just a parasitic remainder of an old belief at this point.

 

[OnMyLast Legs]

I'm not trying to be argumentative

Me neither, just working it out. I got pretty "trad" and I'm aware of recent debates over how much is inerrant (all vs. just soteriological stuff) and I've heard the Augustine thing. He did have an instantaneous creation but it was still ~4000 BC and he's the one out of consensus. The story is that his Latin translation (pre-Vulgate) was bad and made Gen 1 appear to contradict Gen 2 IIRC. So he tried to reconcile them. Also it is dogma that we biologically descend from Adam and Eve, so the mixed stance would get pretty weird. Last thing, in what sense is it "true" if not literal? These are simple straightforward sentences. On the third day God made plants, etc.

 

[itsgone2]

Last thing, in what sense is it "true" if not literal? These are simple straightforward sentences. On the third day God made plants, etc.

Well, this is me working a bit from memory, but the idea being that God did create all these things, but not necessarily along that concept of time. Not literally on a third day.
I'm enjoying this discussion. Faith discussions in general.
Another explanation I heard once, was that many of the teachings of Jesus were parables, and that we could treat much of the Old Testament the same way. That wasn't from a Priest or any official doctrine, just something I thought was nice.