Any scientific reasoning as to SN not leaving lasting damage?

[spanishguy22]

I'd really like to believe that if somehow you survive sn are are saved you won't have any damage (most importantly brain).
if CO and SN both basically work the same way (depriving blood to carry oxygen), why can CO lead to brain damage if found before dying but not SN? What's the scientific explanation?
thanks, id really like to clear this doubt

 

[Jessica-]

following

 

[DarkStar1]

I don't see how it can't leave damage if someone is rescued or if someone's attempt fails and the SN deprived the brain of oxygen for some period of time. Clearly, I don't know how long this period of time is.

 

[Longman]

There was another thread on this question, in this post from that thread https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/consequences-of-surviving-sn-poisoning.13548/post-281241 survivor felt a tingling in her shoulder for weeks after SN poisoning, but nothing else.

Also, here is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning#Central_nervous_system_effects some info on CO poisoning. It seems that it has multiple ways to damage brain, not only by hypoxemic hypoxia.

 

[Jessica-]

There was another thread on this question, in this post from that thread https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/consequences-of-surviving-sn-poisoning.13548/post-281241 survivor felt a tingling in her shoulder for weeks after SN poisoning, but nothing else.

With respect, that's hardly scientific, just some post by some random stranger on the internet.

I don't see how it can't leave damage if someone is rescued or if someone's attempt fails and the SN deprived the brain of oxygen for some period of time. Clearly, I don't know how long this period of time is.

I agree but through my research, I don't recall one survivor having permanent brain damage which is why I really want to learn the science behind it.

 

[spanishguy22]

With respect, that's hardly scientific, just some post by some random stranger on the internet.


I agree but through my research, I don't recall one survivor having permanent brain damage which is why I really want to learn the science behind it.

That might be due to simply very little case reports. But if nobody has ever found one it's encouraging. I just don't know that's why I'd love someone to tell me

And the science behind it

 

[Jessica-]

That might be due to simply very little case reports. But if nobody has ever found one it's encouraging. I just don't know that's why I'd love someone to tell me

And the science behind it

Yes, I have read abc 20 case studies where some died and others survived with no lasting damage. I understand why you would like to know the science behind it as we want to make sure that we don't end up surviving in a vegetative state.

 

[spanishguy22]

Yes, I have read abc 20 case studies where some died and others survived with no lasting damage. I understand why you would like to know the science behind it as we want to make sure that we don't end up surviving in a vegetative state.

Yeah it's my biggest and only thing keeping me from doing it. Until I figure out how take out that risk.
Honestly lmao if I knew it's reversible and no brain damage possible I'd spam the fuck out that method. So eager.

 

[Davy]

Sodium Nitrate
Sodium Nitrate induces Methemoglobinemia which happens due elevated levels of methemoglobin, which are naturally present in the body at healthy levels between 1-2%. Methemoglobin is a useless form of hemoglobin which is the protein in red blood cells. It cannot bind to oxygen, means it cannot carry oxygen to tissues and heart❤ which can cause tissue hypoxia thus death.

In Methemoglobin, the iron is oxidised in the Fe3+ (ferric) state, not the Fe2+ (ferrous) of normal hemoglobin. Brain iron uptake is mediated by the blood-brain barrier which is vascular barrier which protects the brain and ensures that there is a precisely balanced iron level [1]. Perhaps the blood-brain barrier protects the brain and limits the amount of methemoglobin in the brain keeping it safe. The barrier also protects the dispersion of solutes in the blood [2], like our SN mixture which means that it can not reach the brain and generate methemoglobin. Since the brain is healthy and not deprived of oxygen it can repair the different parts of the body and lead to a full recovery.

It is also worth noting that the brain and muscles naturally form a low amount of methemoglobin. [3]

Per 100 c.mm. of oxygen uptake the kidney produces most, followed by heart, liver, brain, and muscle in this order.

Carbon monoxide poisoning
CO works differently by combining hemoglobin to form carboxyhemoglobin, instead of forming a useless type of hemoglobin like SN. It decreases oxygen-carrying capacity of the blood and limits oxygen transfer to the brain. Brain death.

TLDR: SN fucks up your tissues, CO fucks up your brain. Tissue hypoxia vs Cerebral hypoxia.
This was an interesting question so I did a bit of research, however I am not a chemistry major so I may not be 100% correct so please do your own research.

 

[DarkStar1]

It is possible that if someone suffered brain damages he/she would not be in a cognitive stat to post what had occurred.

 

[spanishguy22]

Yeah it's my biggest and only thing keeping me from doing it. Until I figure out how take out that risk.

Sodium Nitrate
Sodium Nitrate induces Methemoglobinemia which happens due elevated levels of methemoglobin, which are naturally present in the body at healthy levels between 1-2%. Methemoglobin is a useless form of hemoglobin which is the protein in red blood cells. It cannot bind to oxygen, means it cannot carry oxygen to tissues and heart❤ which can cause tissue hypoxia thus death.

In Methemoglobin, the iron is oxidised in the Fe3+ (ferric) state, not the Fe2+ (ferrous) of normal hemoglobin. Brain iron uptake is mediated by the blood-brain barrier which is vascular barrier which protects the brain and ensures that there is a precisely balanced iron level [1]. Perhaps the blood-brain barrier protects the brain and limits the amount of methemoglobin in the brain keeping it safe. The barrier also protects the dispersion of solutes in the blood [2], like our SN mixture which means that it can not reach the brain and generate methemoglobin. Since the brain is healthy and not deprived of oxygen it can repair the different parts of the body and lead to a full recovery.

It is also worth noting that the brain and muscles naturally form a low amount of methemoglobin. [3]


Carbon monoxide poisoning
CO works differently by combining hemoglobin to form carboxyhemoglobin, instead of forming a useless type of hemoglobin like SN. It decreases oxygen-carrying capacity of the blood and limits oxygen transfer to the brain. Brain death.

TLDR: SN fucks up your tissues, CO fucks up your brain. Tissue hypoxia vs Cerebral hypoxia.
This was an interesting question so I did a bit of research, however I am not a chemistry major so I may not be 100% correct so please do your own research.

View attachment 10145View attachment 10146

thank you so much
Please if someone knows something about the subject give some feedback. Would be really valuable.
As the above person says we can't be sure because there's no feedback from vegetable people. But studies haven't shown nothing like that yet.
Some more Q:

So if SN fucks up tissues? Does that include brain tissues? Or heart? What mechanism induces brain coma?

 

[Walilamdzi]

It depends what you mean by lasting damage. I've read multiple times that sodium nitrite is a carcinogen, so could be looking at getting all kinds of negative effects further down the line. I'm guessing here but maybe the kinds of cancer associated with eating a lot of processed meat, since it's used in meat processing. Bowel cancer?

 

[Jessica-]

SN fucks up your tissues, CO fucks up your brain. Tissue hypoxia vs Cerebral hypoxia

Thanks for reply but I am still really confused why the lack of oxygen to the brain doesn't screw up the brain cells as well as others.


Afaik, the coma is caused by cerebral hypoxia, which is the lack of oxygen to the brain due to methemoglobinemia. Despite my continued research on this, I still don't understand why many people were about to make full recoveries.

"The brain requires approximately 3.3 ml of oxygen per 100 g of brain tissue per minute. Initially the body responds to lowered blood oxygen by redirecting blood to the brain and increasing cerebral blood flow. Blood flow may increase up to twice the normal flow but no more. If the increased blood flow is sufficient to supply the brain's oxygen needs then no symptoms will result.[6]

However, if blood flow cannot be increased or if doubled blood flow does not correct the problem, symptoms of cerebral hypoxia will begin to appear. Mild symptoms include difficulties with complex learning tasks and reductions in short-term memory. If oxygen deprivation continues, cognitive disturbances, and decreased motor control will result.[6] The skin may also appear bluish (cyanosis) and heart rate increases. Continued oxygen deprivation results in fainting, long-term loss of consciousness, coma, seizures, cessation of brain stem reflexes, and brain death.[7]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_hypoxia

 

[Davy]

Thanks for reply but I am still really confused why the lack of oxygen to the brain doesn't screw up the brain cells as well as others.


Afaik, the coma is caused by cerebral hypoxia, which is the lack of oxygen to the brain due to methemoglobinemia. Despite my continued research on this, I still don't understand why many people were about to make full recoveries.

"The brain requires approximately 3.3 ml of oxygen per 100 g of brain tissue per minute. Initially the body responds to lowered blood oxygen by redirecting blood to the brain and increasing cerebral blood flow. Blood flow may increase up to twice the normal flow but no more. If the increased blood flow is sufficient to supply the brain's oxygen needs then no symptoms will result.[6]

However, if blood flow cannot be increased or if doubled blood flow does not correct the problem, symptoms of cerebral hypoxia will begin to appear. Mild symptoms include difficulties with complex learning tasks and reductions in short-term memory. If oxygen deprivation continues, cognitive disturbances, and decreased motor control will result.[6] The skin may also appear bluish (cyanosis) and heart rate increases. Continued oxygen deprivation results in fainting, long-term loss of consciousness, coma, seizures, cessation of brain stem reflexes, and brain death.[7]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_hypoxia

Thanks for for this post, I was was confused about this as well. For Tissue hypoxia vs Cerebral hypoxia, I was more so talking about the final cause of death.
Cerebral hypoxia is a form of hypoxia specifically involving the brain, which doesn't seem to be our case. SN seems to be a generalised type of hypoxia which affects the entire body, or parts of the body, which leaves the body blue.

Cyanosis - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Maybe that's where our answer lies. Is there a source that SN unconsciousness is caused directly by lack of oxygen to the brain? It could be possible that the brain is still receiving oxygen instead of being completely starved, that's the only solution I can thing of.

 

[spanishguy22]

Thanks for for this post, I was was confused about this as well. For Tissue hypoxia vs Cerebral hypoxia, I was more so talking about the final cause of death.
Cerebral hypoxia is a form of hypoxia specifically involving the brain, which doesn't seem to be our case. SN seems to be a generalised type of hypoxia which affects the entire body, or parts of the body, which leaves the body blue.


Maybe that's where our answer lies. Is there a source that SN unconsciousness is caused directly by lack of oxygen to the brain? It could be possible that the brain is still receiving oxygen instead of being completely starved, that's the only solution I can thing of.

From my completely ignorant pov it would seem weird to me that the brain would make you go unconscious without a real lack of oxygen. I thought it was always needed. But I could totally be wrong and hopefully. A doctor would be of great help here tbh

 

[Jessica-]

From my completely ignorant pov it would seem weird to me that the brain would make you go unconscious without a real lack of oxygen. I thought it was always needed. But I could totally be wrong and hopefully. A doctor would be of great help here tbh

I only managed to find this fact sheet published by USDA which is for feral pigs and not humans. Feral pigs have limited enzyme to counteract SN compared to humans so it is considered more peaceful to them but I think the mode of action re death and unconsciousness would be the same or at least very similar.

"An overdose of sodium nitrite reduces the ability of blood to transfer oxygen to tissues, a condition known as methemoglobinemia. The mode of death is similar to carbon monoxide poisoning. Once enough sodium nitrite bait is eaten, the feral swine gets faint, is rendered unconscious, and quickly dies. In most cases, feral swine die within 2.5 to 3 hours after eating a lethal dose."

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/publications/wildlife_damage/feral-swine-bait.pdf

 

[spanishguy22]

From my completely ignorant pov it would seem weird to me that the brain would make you go unconscious without a real lack of oxygen. I thought it was always needed. But I could totally be wrong and hopefully. A doctor would be of great help here tbh

Toxic Brain Injury with Nitrobenzene Poisoning

Acute methemoglobinemia secondary to nitrobenzene ingestion is a rare but well-known clinical entity. It is extremely important to identify such patients as rapid and effective management with methylene blue and other supportive measures will often save ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I found a report about a suicidal ingestion of Nitrobenzene which causes damage (please correct me if I'm wrong) by methemoglobinemia, like SN. But the interesting thing is the report seems to suggest that her brain was actually damaged from nitrobenzenene own toxic effects, not methemoglobinemia or brain hypoxia. (the process that interests us):

"Ten days after her arrival to our center, she unfortunately passed away secondary to aspiration pneumonitis, sepsis, and toxic brain injury due to nitrobenzene"

"The MRI in our case did not show changes related to brain hypoxia but direct toxic injury due to nitrobenzene ingestion"

So I guess that's another case which supports the theory of the damage being reversible. It's still not clear but hey it's something.

I only managed to find this fact sheet published by USDA which is for feral pigs and not humans. Feral pigs have limited enzyme to counteract SN compared to humans so it is considered more peaceful to them but I think the mode of action re death and unconsciousness would be the same or at least very similar.

"An overdose of sodium nitrite reduces the ability of blood to transfer oxygen to tissues, a condition known as methemoglobinemia. The mode of death is similar to carbon monoxide poisoning. Once enough sodium nitrite bait is eaten, the feral swine gets faint, is rendered unconscious, and quickly dies. In most cases, feral swine die within 2.5 to 3 hours after eating a lethal dose."

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/publications/wildlife_damage/feral-swine-bait.pdf

That wouldn't be good news, knowing the awful irreversible effects CO has in the brain
It's confusing I'll have to research more

 

[clover___]

It depends what you mean by lasting damage. I've read multiple times that sodium nitrite is a carcinogen, so could be looking at getting all kinds of negative effects further down the line. I'm guessing here but maybe the kinds of cancer associated with eating a lot of processed meat, since it's used in meat processing. Bowel cancer?

I've asked ER docs about this cancer causing potential and the answer is that while we don't have much data on the effects of sn specifically, acute toxicity is generally a very different beast to chronic toxicity, particularly when it comes to cancer risk. The studies we do have that report a carcinogenic effect from nitrite consumption are from chronic, long term dietary consumption. We don't really know the long term effects of one time consumption of large amounts of nitrites, it just doesn't happen often enough for it to have been studied very thoroughly.