Venting Anti-natilist rant.

[Forever Sleep]

I feel like we've all heard these phrases from parents:

'Life is cruel'

'Life isn't fair'

'It's a dog eat dog world out there'

Given that they can observe that, why do they then think: 'Let's bring a child here!'

The worst I suppose of it is- if you truly claim to love something/ someone, why would you expose it to so much potential risk? Especially when a good proportion of the risk can't be mitigated.

Not all illnesses are preventable or curable. Living is expensive. Unless parents are hugely rich, they likely won't be able to support their children forever. So, the assumption is the child will conform and be good enough for wage slavery. Death 100% awaits the child and they'll more than likely witness many family members deaths beforehand also.

I just feel like would-be parents vision must go all rose tinted to not consider that. Or perhaps worse in a way, I think their main focus must be- What will having children do for me? It will make me feel needed and loved. Which I suppose it great if the child feels the same. What if they end up like (some of) us though?

Sometimes I wonder if my Mum would feel horror if she could somehow see how it all turned out (she's dead.) I think my Dad has realised he wouldn't bring children here now. It's just a shame he hadn't worked that out earlier!

 

[mikgazer6]

Last week I was talking with my mom on a topic that led to family, having children, then antinatalism (a first). I mentioned similar things you wrote here. She had no response other than claiming I'm mentally ill and against god.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Last week I was talking with my mom on a topic that led to family, having children, then antinatalism (a first). I mentioned similar things you wrote here. She had no response other than claiming I'm mentally ill and against god.

That's a weird one really. Plenty of people struggle to conceive. Is that God's will too? Some need IVF. Is that against God's will? Because it was invented by humans to intervene? So was nembutal. Seems funny to me really.

Are cot deaths God's will? I'm absolutely against that kind of God! One that seems to enjoy people suffering. Ok, I may be stuck here putting up with it. God's not having my would- be children too! F*ck that. I'll fight for them!

The mentally ill bit is tricky. How can any of us be sure we aren't mentally ill ultimately? I'm not too convinced on the diagnoses techniques we seem to have. Treatment doesn't seem to be 100% effective though- seeing as so many of us here have tried at least some of it.

So- even if we are mentally ill- is it treatable enough for people to be living decent quality lives- doubtful. Is it hereditary? Sometimes. So- effectively- do we want to risk having a child with a possibility of having a mental illness that doesn't necessarily have an adequate cure? Erm... Doesn't seem like a good argument to me to have children!

I daren't go near topics like that with my parents now. I try to stick to small talk as much as possible!

 

[getoutgirl]

I have mixed feelings about it. They usually lean one way or the other depending on how I'm mentally that day. And I'm a dummie about philosphy so I won't even try to take my rationale too seriously.

But for one I totally agree I wouldn't bring a child to a shitty environment, just to suffer or without the propper love and care. But there are also people who seem really happy about being alive. Sometimes in the worst of environments. Just people peoplin' and I don't think those births were mistakes even if the uncertainty was there. Similary I get happy whenever someone announces they are going to try recovery, or has cancelled their cbt plans. I don't know if that will work for them but my brain still clings to the hope it does, cos it can. For me it works differently tho, brain shifts its gears fast.
So yeah cos of that I can't make myself apply anti-natalism as general world view, particular? maybe, ask me late at dark nd I might change my tune.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I have mixed feelings about it. They usually lean one way or the other depending on how I'm mentally that day. And I'm a dummie about philosphy so I won't even try to take my rationale too seriously.

But for one I totally agree I wouldn't bring a child to a shitty environment, just to suffer or without the propper love and care. But there are also people who seem really happy about being alive. Sometimes in the worst of environments. Just people peoplin' and I don't think those births were mistakes even if the uncertainty was there. Similary I get happy whenever someone announces they are going to try recovery, or has cancelled their cbt plans. I don't know if that will work for them but my brain still clings to the hope it does, cos it can. For me it works differently tho, brain shifts its gears fast.
So yeah cos of that I can't make myself apply anti-natalism as general world view, particular? maybe, ask me late at dark nd I might change my tune.

Yeah, fair points. Many of my friends have children. It's not like I hate them! . I do worry for their children though. You're right though, perhaps the odds are actually good for people enjoying life. I suppose it's just a personal feeling mostly that I feel sure my child would suffer at some point. Likely multiple times and, I couldn't bear to see that.

It is more of a personal thing I suppose though. I'd literally have to become a fake person in order to effectively parent and I doubt I'd be able to maintain that. It's not to say others can't though. They may not even have to put on an act. I guess some people do have enough resilience to thrive in this world. Whether inherited, taught or self motivated. I just find it hard to get my head around I suppose. Which is why I wouldn't curse another sentient being with the same problem.

 

[getoutgirl]

Yeah, fair points. Many of my friends have children. It's not like I hate them! . I do worry for their children though. You're right though, perhaps the odds are actually good for people enjoying life. I suppose it's just a personal feeling mostly that I feel sure my child would suffer at some point. Likely multiple times and, I couldn't bear to see that.

It is more of a personal thing I suppose though. I'd literally have to become a fake person in order to effectively parent and I doubt I'd be able to maintain that. It's not to say others can't though. They may not even have to put on an act. I guess some people do have enough resilience to thrive in this world. Whether inherited, taught or self motivated. I just find it hard to get my head around I suppose. Which is why I wouldn't curse another sentient being with the same problem.

Yeah, the odds are weird. I've met people in such terrible situations, social, psysical, the kind I imagine that if I was in their shoes I would try and cbt asap, can barely handle my own situation no way theirs, and I've had these people look me in the eye and say they are glad to be alive, and to have been born and to continue living. Why? No idea but there is a point you have to take their word for it.

I also think you are a caring person for not wishing that on anyone. That may be part of the root of your mentality. You empathize, you know that pain and suffering and wouldn't want any future kid to go through that even in the slightest. That is kind. I dont know if that can change the mentality but hey it may grant you some self value and make you feel a lil better about it :)
Take care <3

 

[KillingPain267]

Given that they can observe that, why do they then think: 'Let's bring a child here!'

The problem is that they DON'T think rationally or think at all. I explained antinatalism to my mom recently and she almost freaked out, felt attacked, so I stopped going further. Lol. Maybe they don't want to face the truth. Lots of their justifications are post hoc rationalisation which are logically quite selfish and/or stupid. I find it so freeing that I decided to never subject another person to this world. I hope my childless younger brother will consider my antinatalist arguments and also make this freeing decision for life. The beauty is that being childless is double-freeing, both for your own life and for the unborn who doesn't have to face anything.

Or perhaps worse in a way, I think their main focus must be- What will having children do for me? It will make me feel needed and loved.

Yeah, it's totally selfish. Like, they don't even realize how evil it sounds. Imagine me saying I want to kidnap people and have them as slaves because it makes me feel good. That wouldn't justify anything. I have been doing some babysitting jobs and it's enough to satisfy the "need" to feel needed by someone helpless. I don't have to make my own children to feel that. In fact the former is much more of a sacrifice than the latter because I have no obligation to care for other kids.

I also believe parents are obligated to provide for LIFE. At least provide a home, an education/training for a career and some land and/or tools, like it was and still is in tribal or traditional societies.

 

[Grav]

I thought about this before we had our daughter, not only what would the world be like but also that I was now locked into decisions based on her future. Yes that has made helped push me more to ctb but also stopped me. I don't question anyone's desire to have kids and there are plenty who do and really shouldn't. I'm not an antinatslist but think people should think long and hard before they do the deed.

 

[Forever Sleep]

The problem is that they DON'T think rationally or think at all. I explained antinatalism to my mom recently and she almost freaked out, felt attacked, so I stopped going further. Lol. Maybe they don't want to face the truth. Lots of their justifications are post hoc rationalisation which are logically quite selfish and/or stupid. I find it so freeing that I decided to never subject another person to this world. I hope my childless younger brother will consider my antinatalist arguments and also make this freeing decision for life. The beauty is that being childless is double-freeing, both for your own life and for the unborn who doesn't have to face anything.

Yeah, it's totally selfish. Like, they don't even realize how evil it sounds. Imagine me saying I want to kidnap people and have them as slaves because it makes me feel good. That wouldn't justify anything. I have been doing some babysitting jobs and it's enough to satisfy the "need" to feel needed by someone helpless. I don't have to make my own children to feel that. In fact the former is much more of a sacrifice than the latter because I have no obligation to care for other kids.

I also believe parents are obligated to provide for LIFE. At least provide a home, an education/training for a career and some land and/or tools, like it was and still is in tribal or traditional societies.

That's kind that you babysit and get your baby 'fix' that way. Not exatly the same but, I'm the same with pets in a way. It would be kind of cruel for me to have one because my living environment wouldn't be great and my work life can go crazy timewise. So, I enjoy watching YouTube videos of other people's pets instead and giving to animal charities.