Discussion Another stupid afterlife thread, because I like them :)

[Deleted member 847]

Thought experiment:
- You want to die
- You tie your rope to your ceiling. Put your head in the noose and kick the chair.
- You feel dizzy for 7-10 seconds, your vision gets blurry and you faint.
- 20 minutes pass, your brain is completely dead. Your consciousness has been terminated.

1 year passes after your death, because you don't have a consciousness anymore that translates from your perspective to 0 seconds having passed.
If some force managed to recreate your brain by this time, that whole year would have felt like 1 second to you. Think
about it like this, it's 2022 right? Close your eyes and say "One" in your mind. Done? Ok. Now it's 2023.
That's how I felt when I hanged myself, similar to how patients describe their experience under general anesthesia,
4 minutes that passed instantly from my perspective

Now it's been 2 years after your death, and to your nonexistent consciousness it's still been just 0 seconds.
200 years after your death, 0 seconds, some countries don't exist anymore, climate change happened, the earth is now as warm as it was in the jurassic
1,000,000 years after your death, humanity is now extinct or has evolved into some "machine-like species" after the technological singularity, still 0 seconds
9,000,000,000 years after your death The sun has went supernova and the solar system doesn't exist anymore, 0 seconds have passed from your perspective

100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years have passed, to you 0 seconds have passed

Let's make this number even bigger

10106 ​ ​

10 the power of 106, a 1 followed by 106 zeros, by this time the universe itself doesn't exist anymore (if protons decay) ​
to your consciousness, after all these years, only 0 seconds have passed. Of course, your consciousness doesn't exist anymore, ​
so you can't be aware of time. But if by magic something woke you up from your "dreamless sleep", all of this would have happened in an instant to you​

​

Let's make this number ridiculously big, almost infinite. ​

10 to the power of 1000, 0 seconds to your consciousness​
10 to the power of 100000000, 0 seconds to your consciousness​
10 to the power of 1000000000000000000, 1 second to your consciousness some force recreated your brain, and now you're awake again​
maybe you're in the brain of a rabbit on some alien planet, in some other universe, and you don't remember anything. ​
A predator approaches, and now you run for your life... You thought you could escape suffering by killing yourself,​
but this madness will never end. We live in hell, and it's forever. ​

It's been forever, it's been infinity almost, but something happened in the universe, and your consciousness has been recreated in it.​
Some force that we weren't aware of, that we didn't even know existed, managed to recreate the same mechanisms that gave rise to your subjective feelings in your past life.​
For you to stay in the 0 seconds of time state for eternity, in an infinite amount of time reality (which is everything that exists, probably more than just our universe) shouldn't be able to recreate your brain. How likely do you think that is? ​

My point? Suicide is a bet. ​

 

[Shu]

I think about this all day long.
Maybe we are creating our own hell and aren't aware of it.

 

[19andOverdue]

I like to think of consciousness as a separate entity from matter and physics entirely. That could mean that our consciousness lives in a dimension/universe entirely out of our reach, and unaffected by time passing. And somehow 200,000 years ago, these two universes overlapped, and created a leftover monkey brain doomed to suffer and die. Just an idea tho lol

 

[Shu]

If what you're saying IS true ill eventually figure it out and change the course. I'm still gonna kill myself though.

 

[19andOverdue]

I think about this all day long.
Maybe we are creating our own hell and aren't aware of it.

Humans are born defenseless and confused. Our archetypes are the only real thing we collectively have, and who's to say we're doing the right thing? Maybe there is no right thing? Doomed? Probably

 

[Deleted member 847]

Anyways guys the xxxx real time to 1 second time in your subjective time "thing" isn't bullshit
I've tested it
I think I've read about it somewhere with people saying that's how general anesthesia feels like,
but when it actually happened to me in real life it was really cool
it felt like teleporting

Obviously the rest is imaginary (like the fact that your consciousness could be recreated by some force after x years have passed) and
might be the case or not. We don't know what the fuck reality is. We have some facts, but we don't know everything (and i don't even think it's possible to know everything).
If we did, our current science wouldn't allow people to die of cancer for instance...

 

[19andOverdue]

Anyways guys the xxxx real time to 1 second time in your subjective time "thing" isn't bullshit
I've tested it
I think I've read about it somewhere with people saying that's how general anesthesia feels like,
but when it actually happened to me in real life it was really cool
it felt like teleporting

Obviously the rest is imaginary (like the fact that your consciousness could be recreated by some force after x years have passed) and
might be the case or not. We don't know what the fuck reality is. We have some facts, but we don't know everything.
If we did, our current science wouldn't allow people to die of cancer for instance...

It's cuz your consciousness left and joined the collective (per. Carl Jung, not just hippy shit) you're essentially unaffected from time. Reincarnation? Fuck idk good question

 

[Smart No More]

But if you're 'reincarnated' in something or someone else and don't remember/know then that's not reincarnation. It's just somebody/thing else. Right? Because you're only you if you know you're you as what makes you is self awareness and the culmination of your past experiences.

 

[Shu]

Seems I'd you can't be messaged NolifeNoPain but this is a fun read for the shits and giggles.

Seth's Concepts

 

[newave3]

 

[Deleted member 847]

But if you're 'reincarnated' in something or someone else and don't remember/know then that's not reincarnation. It's just somebody/thing else. Right? Because you're only you if you know you're you as what makes you is self awareness and the culmination of your past experiences.

I've had some dreams where I've had false memories, didn't remember who I was in real life, not even my real name. In some of these dreams I could remember what I did the "day before in the dream" but the day before was a false memory. I don't know if you're getting what I'm saying. The dream made me "someone else" and I bought it without questioning it

So, I'd say no, that rabbit is still you. You are the = I am feeling, not your memories.
If tomorrow you think your name is alicia and that you're a woman and you have 3 kids, even if it's not true, your consciousness is still the same, so you're going to feel being that rabbit, it doesn't matter that your personality is gone

Heck you don't even have the same body that you had when you were a 10 year old, right?
Your face is bigger, you're taller....
but it's the same consciousness. You're still you.

Ah by the way, if you want to catch the bus, don't worry about my thread,
it's probably bullshit

Honestly I'd rather believe in souls than in Boltzmann brains, even though they're fascinating they also allow
the possibility of eternal torture being a thing

If boltzmann brains exist, mathemathics say you're already dead and this is all a dream.
You already live in the afterlife, and you've made it a shitty place with your imagination, congratulations, your imagination sucks



Maybe the next dream will be better, or maybe it will be this:



Maybe now you can see why it would be a fucking tragedy if this thing existed
You'll be god of your dream world one day
but you'll also live in hell for a long time one day
Nonexistence is better than living any torture, even if after the torture you get a pleasant life

 

[Shu]

I've had some dreams where I've had false memories, didn't remember who I was in real life, not even my real name. In some of these dreams I could remember what I did the "day before in the dream" but the day before was a false memory. I don't know if you're getting what I'm saying. The dream made me "someone else" and I bought it without questioning it

So, I'd say no, that rabbit is still you. You are the = I am feeling, not your memories.
If tomorrow you think your name is alicia and that you're a woman and you have 3 kids, even if it's not true, your consciousness is still the same, so you're going to feel being that rabbit, it doesn't matter that your personality is gone

Heck you don't even have the same body that you had when you were a 10 year old, right?
Your face is bigger, you're taller....
but it's the same consciousness. You're still you.

Ah by the way, if you want to catch the bus, don't worry about my thread,
it's probably bullshit

Honestly I'd rather believe in souls than in Boltzmann brains, even though they're fascinating they also allow
the possibility of eternal torture being a thing

If boltzmann brains exist, mathemathics say you're already dead and this is all a dream.
You already live in the afterlife, and you've made it a shitty place with your imagination, congratulations, your imagination sucks
View attachment 94033
View attachment 94034

Maybe the next dream will be better, or maybe it will be this:

View attachment 94035

Maybe now you can see why it would be a fucking tragedy if this thing existed
You'll be god of your dream world one day
but you'll also live in hell for a long time one day
Nonexistence is better than living any torture, even if after the torture you get a pleasant life

"If boltzmann brains exist, mathemathics say you're already dead and this is all a dream.
You already live in the afterlife, and you've made it a shitty place with your imagination, congratulations, your imagination sucks.."


Think about this all the time as well. I actually believe this to be true 95%
Not sure about the boltzmann brains part but the rest of it.

 

[Smart No More]

I've had some dreams where I've had false memories, didn't remember who I was in real life, not even my real name. In some of these dreams I could remember what I did the "day before in the dream" but the day before was a false memory. I don't know if you're getting what I'm saying. The dream made me "someone else" and I bought it without questioning it

So, I'd say no, that rabbit is still you. You are the = I am feeling, not your memories.
If tomorrow you think your name is alicia and that you're a woman and you have 3 kids, even if it's not true, your consciousness is still the same, so you're going to feel being that rabbit, it doesn't matter that your personality is gone

Heck you don't even have the same body that you had when you were a 10 year old, right?
Your face is bigger, you're taller....
but it's the same consciousness. You're still you.

Ah by the way, if you want to catch the bus, don't worry about my thread,
it's probably bullshit

Honestly I'd rather believe in souls than in Boltzmann brains, even though they're fascinating they also allow
the possibility of eternal torture being a thing

If boltzmann brains exist, mathemathics say you're already dead and this is all a dream.
You already live in the afterlife, and you've made it a shitty place with your imagination, congratulations, your imagination sucks
View attachment 94033
View attachment 94034

Maybe the next dream will be better, or maybe it will be this:

View attachment 94035

Maybe now you can see why it would be a fucking tragedy if this thing existed
You'll be god of your dream world one day
but you'll also live in hell for a long time one day
Nonexistence is better than living any torture, even if after the torture you get a pleasant life

Dreams are dreams. We've all dreamt all sort of shit. Dreams are a reaction to our brains filing system.

We are in the same body we were born in. Yes it's changed and many/most of the cells it's made up of are new as we age but we never left it and then returned to it.

If you go into a coma and dream eternally you're still in your body so you're you and when/if you wake you will be you. Unless you're significantly brain damaged. (that itself wouldn't occur if our consciousness was eternal btw. For example, look at dementia. People are no longer themselves in their own bodies). If you die and your 'consciousness' is recycled into someone else then you're now them. Not you. You're never returning/waking up in your body again. Therefore you no longer exist. If you switch a processor from one computer to another it is no longer the same computer.

 

[Deleted member 847]

Dreams are dreams. We've all dreamt all sort of shit. Dreams are a reaction to our brains filing system.

We are in the same body we were born in. Yes it's changed and many/most of the cells it's made up of are new as we age but we never left it and then returned to it.

If you go into a coma and dream eternally you're still in your body so you're you and when/if you wake you will be you. Unless you're significantly brain damaged. (that itself wouldn't occur if our consciousness was eternal btw. For example, look at dementia. People are no longer themselves in their own bodies). If you die and your 'consciousness' is recycled into someone else then you're now them. Not you. You're never returning/waking up in your body again. Therefore you no longer exist. If you switch a processor from one computer to another it is no longer the same computer.

I don't think you understood the thought experiment, but it's okay, I don't mind "spiritual-new age" people posting about their views
Here's what my thought experiment actually meant:
Consciousness exists in the universe, you're proof of it
Consciousness is a function of the brain, it's a system of qualia that's strictly attached to a configuration of matter for some mysterious reason
Whenever that configuration happens, the same qualia bits appear, the same "consciousness"
Consciousness (Consciousness = NoLifeNoPain's I am feeling) has a mechanism that's responsible for its function (it's not magic).
The Mechanism is unique for each Consciousness/NoLifeNoPain, Joe, etc, since the same mechanism when created always leads to the same effect: NoLifeNoPain, Joe, etc.
The Mechanism being unique is the reason why this brain is NoLifeNoPain instead of Smart No More, even though both of us are
just consciousness. We're individual consciousnesses: effect 1 and effect 2. Our consciousness have different qualia bits, that's why
my I am feeling isn't yours and vice versa. Unique qualia patterns.
By that I mean my brain could've very well have been a "Smart No More" consciousness, instead of a "NoLifeNoPain" one,
if someone programmed my brain to look like yours, and produce the qualias that your brain produces instead of the ones mine produces.
It's not like a software that you can copy paste and have both of them identical at the same time, because individual consciousness may only exist
once in the universe, otherwise they wouldn't be individual anymore.
If someone made a clone of me, I would still be me, and the clone would be himself, that's because
I think it'd be impossible to perfectly copy the mechanism, but if that happened, instead of two consciousnesses with
the same personality, the same consciousness should split between brains.
I want to make this clear again, you are the consciousness, not the memories.
Your consciousness is made of a configuration of few qualia bits, that emerge out of the mechanism, that's what makes it an individual consciousness.
If you, unique consciousness 1 (smart no more), wake up tomorrow with unique consciousness 2's memories implanted in your brain (nolifenopain),
you might be completely identical to me personality wise, but your feeling of "being" is still your consciousness 1 /smart no more.
You don't become my consciousness because you think you're me.

Consciousness in my thought experiment is a unique configuration of matter that always
leads to the reemergence of the same "I am" feeling, in different bodies and with different memories.
If you can prove that the brain can be perfectly copied (atom by atom) then consciousness is still a mechanism,
but the mechanism could be something other than the brain (maybe a soul, maybe something outside space and time). Otherwise
you're just saying that consciousness is magic, it has no cause for its effect (the cause can't be the brain,
because you've cloned the brain perfectly and it gave you a different consciousness) and it only happens once in the universe for no reason.

I still feel that I haven't explained this right, let me make a drawing for you
I'm not a philosopher or anything, but I think the idea makes sense and it could be how reality works. Obviously consciousness must have
a cause for its effect, and we know that each consciousness is unique because I am me, and you are you. So there should be a reason
why effect NoLifeNoPain happens.



The point of the thought experiment was that after an infinite amount of time,
the mechanism that gave rise to your personal consciousness (Say No More, instead of NoLifeNoPain) will
be physically recreated in the universe due to entropy and that will wake you up, one second after your death.
It's as if someone shot you dead, but the next minute your brain magically healed from death. Atom by atom your brain
got reconstructed.
When I woke up from my hanging attempt, I woke up obviously because my brain (and the parts of the brain
responsible for my individual consciousness, aka the mechanism) healed (got into a functioning state again). Obviously I would've stayed
unconscious forever if my brain/mechanism never recovered.

You don't leave your body. This isn't what the thought experiment is about.
You are not your body, you are the mechanism (a configuration of matter, in your body, in the brain) in the brain.
If someone cuts your legs off, you're still alive, because you're the brain not the legs lol.
The thought experiment is about your brain being recreated in the universe eternity after your death leading to you being alive again.


Well I hope this explains it.

The assumptions here are:
1. Consciousness is information
2. Boltzmann brains are possible.

If both are correct, then you should already be a boltzmann brain (actually it's pretty much inevitable, if you really think about it). This should all be a virtual reality. "I lived a life where I had this job, this family, I broke my leg when I was 15 and now
I'm writing a message on sanctioned suicide thread" that's just a thought inside a brain that has just been spawned in the universe after its heath death. Your
life didn't actually happen, if my assumptions are true.

 

[Smart No More]

I totally understood and understand what you were saying in the first place. It's just that we disagree. No biggy. For what it's worth though I'm not 'spiritual new age' in regards to things of this nature. My understanding of things is more clinical and logic based. Not that it matters much. But thanks for gracing me with the permission to post in your thread.

 

[jimmy7754]

Life is a nightmare.

 

[Deleted member 847]

I totally understood and understand what you were saying in the first place. It's just that we disagree. No biggy. For what it's worth though I'm not 'spiritual new age' in any way. My understanding of things is more clinical and logic based. Not that it matters much. But thanks for gracing me with the permission to post in your thread.

Ok I see. So you think that consciousness doesn't have a material reason for its unique function. And that the unique function is a one time event. You think it isn't actually linked to any physical cause that could lead to its reemergence in the future, did I get it right? But to believe that you have to be spiritual, in the sense that you must think that matter and energy aren't the cause of my number128370consciousness, because you think if we recreate the same configuration of matter we'll get a different consciousness,so matter128370 creates consciousness128371 (you believe that two perfect clones can exist at the same time, which means equal brains different subjectivities) . You must either believe that consciousness has no cause, no cause that can reemerge, or that the cause is outside the realm of matter. Sorry If I offended you.

Another possibility, as crazy as it sounds, which is what I'm going for: if two brains that are atomically equal exist at the same time, then they will still have con128370, but that consciousness will be in both brains. Think about a video game, and you have two avatars instead of just one. So two identical brains = one consciousness. Ok this idea is beyond retarded, I get it.

This is all just my imagination. I don't know what the f. I'm talking about, to be honest.

 

[lostmyacc]

But if you're 'reincarnated' in something or someone else and don't remember/know then that's not reincarnation. It's just somebody/thing else. Right? Because you're only you if you know you're you as what makes you is self awareness and the culmination of your past experiences.

There is no reincarnation. Why would elites want to kill us off and depopulate the world, if we're just going to respawn

 

[Smart No More]

I think you're struggling to grasp my take on this.

Whilst we're all wired a little differently we're not only that configuration you speak of. We're more than that. We're a combination of that configuration and the interactions it's had with its environment. When that configuration turns up again it will have no memory of ever being it's previous self and it's new interactions will mould its outcome differently. Regardless, it's entirely pointless to us, here and now because when that configuration comes around again it will not be like awakening from where you left off. If it were true then you would have already experienced it and be aware of it infinite times over already. To say you dreamed of it means nothing. Other than indicating you might be the one leaning toward new age spiritualism. Honestly, there are many contradictions in what you've said but it's too laborious for me to pick apart. I respect you have your opinion and I'll leave you with it. Having considered your take on this with an open mind I'm still unconvinced. There's too much assumption involved. It's fine as a theory but it's not one I susbscribe to. I can see myself previously, in my teens, signing up for it but having lived a bit my views have developed. Truth is my view on many things is ever evolving with time and I think that's a limiting factor for humans understanding in general. We can be told facts but it takes an amount of time to really digest and understand them. As such we end up working with half the picture and our minds make up the gaps in our knowledge the only way they know how. Sometimes we're right but often we're wrong. Overtime we can correct those errors if we're open to it. Not all of us are or have the inclination.
Ultimately I'm inclined to think that when we die we die and that's that. If our consciousness is recycled in some way it not in any way we'll be aware off. Otherwise we'd already aware of it, right?

I'd very much love to believe in, and more importantly be reincarnated but even in your theory it wouldn't work out the way you believe because there's more factors to your theory that aren't accounted for. Time and space wouldn't allow for it. Not as we know it now at least. Our universe will die one day. Regardless, and this is the big take away, for your theory to be correct we would have to have already experienced it by its very definition and as we haven't then it can't be true. Infitity runs forwards and backwards so it's not like we could be on our first run and currently be unaware of it. We would have to exist in all states all the time.

BTW identical clones can exist. Dolly the sheep was the first successful example. Simce then it's been done in humans. Identical twins could arguably be considered clones. They're often mirrors of one another in all aspects. Until they separate. Tbh I'm not sure what I think about the clone thing. I'm not sure why it's a factor in the theory you put forward. Truth is neither of us know what will happen. It is possible to surmise what is unlikely though.

I have experienced a health issue which damaged my brain. Its changed who I am significantly. I have a partial memory of who I was before but I can't experience being 'me' as I was anymore because of the way its impacted my brains fuction. I would so very much like to wake up me again. However, by your theory I would wake up me as I am now. This experience has taught me that our 'selves' are quite clearly changeable and whilst it does hold up your theory that we're a configuration it still doesn't acount for the nurture side of things. We are nature plus nurture. Therefore one without the other is not us. It's somone else. A twin but not us.

I think, for your theory to work clones would have to exist at the same time. Along an infinite timeline. All states of being all the time. We would just be rotating along said timeline. Always dying. Always living. Always shitting. Always typing etc etc. Fragmented in every living moment. Because infinity is exactly that. The theory that an infinite number of chimps smashing away at an infinite number of type writers would eventually type out Shakespeare or war and peace is flawed. They would actually be doing it all the time infinitely. Whilst at the same time typing out all iterations of every publication known and unknown with a single letter out of place from start to finish of each publication. Every individual combination of letters infinitely typed at any given moment.

 

[Deleted member 847]

I think you're struggling to grasp my take on this.

Whilst we're all wired a little differently we're not only that configuration you speak of. We're more than that. We're a combination of that configuration and the interactions it's had with its environment. When that configuration turns up again it will have no memory of wver being it previous self and it's interactions will will mould its outcome differently. Regardless, it's entirely pointless to us, here and now because when that configuration comes around again it will not be like awakening from where you left off. If it were true then you would have already experienced it and be aware of it infinite times over already. To say you dreamed of it means nothing. Other than indicating you might be the one leaning toeard new age spiritualism. Honestly, there are many contradictions in what you've said but it's too laborious for me to pick apart. I respect you have your opinion and I'll leave you with it. Having considered your take on this with an ooen mind I'm still unconvinced. There's too much assumption involved. It's fine as a theory but it's not one I susbscribe to. I can see myself previously, in my teens, signing up for it but having lived a bit my views have developed. Truth is my view on many things is ever evolving with time and I think that's a limiting factor for humans understanding in general. We can be told facts but it takes an amount of time to really digest and understand them. As such we end up working with half the picture and our minds make up the gaps in our knowledge the only way they know how. Sometimes we're right but often we're wrong. Overtime we can correct those errors if we're open to it. Not all of us are or have the inclination.
Ultimately I'm inclined to think that when we die we die and that's that. If our consciousness is recycled in some way it not in any way we'll be aware off. Otherwise we'd already aware of it, right?

I'd very much love to believe in, and more importantly be reincarnated but even in your theory it wouldn't work out the way you believe because there's more factors to your theory that aren't accounted for. Time and space wouldn't allow for it. Not as we know it now at least. Our universe will die one day. Regardless, and this is the big take away, for your theory to be correct we would have to have already experienced it by its very definition and as we haven't thwn it can't be true. Infitity runs forwards and backwards so it's not like we could be on our first run and currently be unaware of it. We would have to exist in all states all the time.

Isn't the interaction with the environment just data in the brain? Our memories, yes? So you would have a btzmann brain, and it would have the same memories that you have right now. Wouldn't that make you spawn again? Make you feel again, after your death, that you don't remember but you're still feeling your conscioisness.

Anyways when you were 10 you didn't have the memories/interactions with the environment
that you have now, correct?
So when you were 10 there was someone else in that body according to your theory.

My dream wasn't a big deal to be honest with you. I just believed that I had a different name, forgot about who I was in real life, and when I told myself (what did I do yesterday edit. sorry for the english) the dream made me remember a fake day. the dream was like 5 minutes. I mean this is even scientifically proved if you've heard of people with dissociative identity disorder.
All of Our memories can't possibly be our consciousness. If that was the case, then people that suffer from Alzheimer disease shouldn't be alive anymore, yet you can clearly see that they're still there, feeling things.
I think consciousness only needs to have some basic memories, that would allow it to remember its "i am" feelings, but I don't think it becomes a new consciousness the moment it starts to talk to people and play with toys. That's our personality, which is separate from consciousness imo.

Well I'm glad we agree to disagree.
about the "new age" thing, sorry if it offended you, again lol

I know that dreams are just hallucinations, if that was your point. It wasn't a past life dream, it was a "imaginary identity dream". No new age there.

In principle you could have a "boltzmann" universe (another big bang that recreates not just your brain, but this entire universe in the same state that it is now) if I add some more assumptions there

I've never said you were going to remember anything, but if you have alzheimer disease and you don't even remember who you are, you don't even know how to drink your spit anymore, you're still feeling "yourself"
if you're that rabbit on the alien planet, you're still going to be tortured by the animal thaf eats you. Who cares you don't remember your past life, you're still going to feel pain.

 

[Smart No More]

No it's an ever evolving consciousness. An ever sliding scale. Therefore, like I said, there would have to be infinite itterations of us available to accomodate 'waking' from death at any time along that sliding timesscale/age. Every second of our lives. Infinite fragmentation and therefore we would both exist and be dead at the same time. Schrodinger's cats. We'd be both extinct and existing as a species in all of its evolutionary itterations in any given moment and everything that has lived or will live would exist and not exist in any given moment. Our minds/consciousness could not, cannot exist in full comprehension in accommodation of this in any given moment. If it could time would appear to stand still to our perception. As you know that's not the case for us. Therefore, we are not aware of our reincarnation if it happens and it can't exist to us even as a result. Even if it exists in actuality is has zero bearing on us and serves a purpose that is of no use to us. We are schrodingers cat in your theory. However somehow schrodinger too. But continuity would cease then. Time would be standing still for us as we experience time in a linear fashion but in your theory we'd have to somehow experience it linearly and infinitely in a 4th dimension at the same time. But that's not possible. Else we'd be experiencing it right now. And not experiencing it at the same time lol. (I know I've repeated myself there. My apologies. Just trying to fully express my point)

Is your brain cooked yet?

Wait, people with Alzheimers aren't unconscious lol. I think maybe this is where things are most confused between you and I. Our definition of self and consciousness are different.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Consciousness and perception of time does really fascinate me.

Kind of feel like one of the biggest elements of consciousness is self awareness and the ability to even ask questions like this. So- what are our brains doing when we are babies? What is your earliest memory? Mine is maybe aged 2-3- that's 1-3 entire years lived with next to no memory of what happened or who I was. We survive on instincts I suppose when we are that young and so dependent on our care givers.

I feel like whatever the hell consciousness is, we have evolved to get it because it presumably gives us an advantage- which also touches on the difference between consciousness in animals vs humans (I do realise we are animals but you know what I mean). Surely insects/ fish/ mammals/ dinosaurs all think/ thought in a different way. I mean- they're alive- they must be conscious but are they self aware in the same way? Some are, some aren't I would say.

I kind of think mankind's enormous ego is one of the reasons for our 'success' and I suppose that is created in our self awareness/ consciousness.

 

[Deleted member 847]

Consciousness and perception of time does really fascinate me.

Kind of feel like one of the biggest elements of consciousness is self awareness and the ability to even ask questions like this. So- what are our brains doing when we are babies? What is your earliest memory? Mine is maybe aged 2-3- that's 1-3 entire years lived with next to no memory of what happened or who I was. We survive on instincts I suppose when we are that young and so dependent on our care givers.

I feel like whatever the hell consciousness is, we have evolved to get it because it presumably gives us an advantage- which also touches on the difference between consciousness in animals vs humans (I do realise we are animals but you know what I mean). Surely insects/ fish/ mammals/ dinosaurs all think/ thought in a different way. I mean- they're alive- they must be conscious but are they self aware in the same way? Some are, some aren't I would say.

I kind of think mankind's enormous ego is one of the reasons for our 'success' and I suppose that is created in our self awareness/ consciousness.

I think I was 2 year old, maybe younger. I remember that I was in a house with some people that claimed to be "my parents" but other than feeling "safe" around them, I didn't really know much else about them. I don't think I even knew their names. The name of my mother was "mom". The house was empty because we were moving. So I understood the concept of "having to go somewhere" apparently. I have no fucking idea how the house used to look before that day. Actually I don't remember anything before that day. That was day one on Earth for me, that's how I remember it. Well the memory is kinda foggy, and for all I know my brain could've added some "false details" to it, but that's how I recall it. Another thing that I remember is that I could barely talk. I wanted to say things, but my vocabulary only had a few words, so maybe I was able to tell people "I'm sick" or "I want to eat/Go to the bathroom" but nothing more sophisticated.

 

[Journeytoletgo]

There is no reincarnation. Why would elites want to kill us off and depopulate the world, if we're just going to respawn

What do you mean respawn?

 

[may13]

"It's not like a software that you can copy paste and have both of them identical at the same time, because individual consciousness may only exist
once in the universe, otherwise they wouldn't be individual anymore.
If someone made a clone of me, I would still be me, and the clone would be himself, that's because
I think it'd be impossible to perfectly copy the mechanism, but if that happened, instead of two consciousnesses with
the same personality, the same consciousness should split between brains."

I disagree. If the universe is infinite, or even just really large, than it must be the case that the larger it is, the more likely it becomes that it really is exactly like a copy and paste. To lean on your "zero seconds passed" example, let's apply the same to space. Say the universe were 10^1000 light years in diameter, then the odds of finding the exact same set of subatomic particles that make "may13" up in the exact same configuration are measurable and predictable with certain probability.

Now imagine the size of the universe is 10^100000000 light years in diameter. That probability increases. Just like it increases yet again if we assume the universe to be 10^googolplex light years in diameter…

So what happens if we extrapolate out to a truly infinite multiverse? Well, then a truly infinite number of exact copies (and every possible variation thereof also in infinite measure) of may13 MUST exist. In this case not only CAN it be an exact copy and paste, it absolutely MUST be an infinite number of copies pasted all along an infinite space.

So these thought experiments are fun, but ultimately limited in what they can actually tell us about that which can never truly be known.

But this particular pasted copy looks forward to a nice glass of saltwater soon.

 

[Deleted member 847]

"It's not like a software that you can copy paste and have both of them identical at the same time, because individual consciousness may only exist
once in the universe, otherwise they wouldn't be individual anymore.
If someone made a clone of me, I would still be me, and the clone would be himself, that's because
I think it'd be impossible to perfectly copy the mechanism, but if that happened, instead of two consciousnesses with
the same personality, the same consciousness should split between brains."

I disagree. If the universe is infinite, or even just really large, than it must be the case that the larger it is, the more likely it becomes that it really is exactly like a copy and paste. To lean on your "zero seconds passed" example, let's apply the same to space. Say the universe were 10^1000 light years in diameter, then the odds of finding the exact same set of subatomic particles that make "may13" up in the exact same configuration are measurable and predictable with certain probability.

Now imagine the size of the universe is 10^100000000 light years in diameter. That probability increases. Just like it increases yet again if we assume the universe to be 10^googolplex light years in diameter…

So what happens if we extrapolate out to a truly infinite multiverse? Well, then a truly infinite number of exact copies (and every possible variation thereof also in infinite measure) of may13 MUST exist. In this case not only CAN it be an exact copy and paste, it absolutely MUST be an infinite number of copies pasted all along an infinite space.

So these thought experiments are fun, but ultimately limited in what they can actually tell us about that which can never truly be known.

But this particular pasted copy looks forward to a nice glass of saltwater soon.

your particular Subjective feelings must have a source, something that made them happen.
Maybe there are infinite May13, all atomically identical, but for some reason all of them feel as individuals.
There must be a cause to that. A "mechanism" that made May13 n1 have his own unique subjective mind, separated from May13n99.
If that mechanism exists, then we can't be sure that it won't happen again after our death. That was my point. I assumed the mechanism was the configuration of atoms that make our brains, but it could be something else.
When people go to sleep, when they wake up it's the same consciousness, right? There has to be "something" that makes qualia happen. It can't just be magic tied to the brain that happens once for no reason, and after the brain is destroyed it leaves the universe forever for no reason.

 

[may13]

your particular Subjective feelings must have a source, something that made them happen.
Maybe there are infinite May13, all atomically identical, but for some reason all of them feel as individuals.
There must be a cause to that. A "mechanism" that made May13 n1 have his own unique subjective mind, separated from May13n99.
If that mechanism exists, then we can't be sure that it won't happen again after our death. That was my point. I assumed the mechanism was the configuration of atoms that make our brains, but it could be something else.
When people go to sleep, when they wake up it's the same consciousness, right? There has to be "something" that makes qualia happen. It can't just be magic tied to the brain that happens once for no reason, and after the brain is destroyed it leaves the universe forever for no reason.

Why can't it be? I mean it doesn't have to be magic but why can't it just be the output function of system complexity?

When people go to sleep, when they wake up it's the same consciousness, right?

I'm not sure. It's possible. The second law of thermodynamics shapes our perception of time. It's equally possible that *our falling asleep tonight and every night thereafter already happened. We perceive time through entropy. It's a very limited experience.

Edit: I write like a 4 year old sometimes…

 

[Deleted member 847]

Why can't it be? I mean it doesn't have to be magic but why can't it just be the output function of system complexity?

So the mechanism is the unique "complexity" of the system. That complexity whenever it happens must always result in system of qualia May13n1 being existent then.
So, prove to me that it's impossible for that same complexity to happen again after let's say a 10 to the power of a 10 tied to papers, all filled with zeros, and the papers can fill up every building on planet earth.
I'm not saying it has to happen, I'm just saying that death being etern nonexistence can't be a certainty.
I mean we don't know everything about reality. Likr I said we only have some facts.

dontvworry about it, I'm not very articulated either
well, my excuse is that I've learned my English by watching youtube and doing duolingo (i'm not a native)

 

[may13]

So the mechanism is the unique "complexity" of the system. That complexity whenever it happens must always result in system of qualia May13n1 being existent then.
So, prove to me that it's impossible for that same complexity to happen again after let's say a 10 to the power of a 10 tied to papers, all filled with zeros, and the papers can fill up every building on planet earth.
I'm not saying it has to happen, I'm just saying that death being etern nonexistence can't be a certainty.
I mean we don't know everything about reality. Likr I said we only have some facts.

I absolutely agree. I would say we know very little about reality. I don't disagree about nonexistence (and by extension, existence) being an uncertainty. I just don't think we can ever really know, and I'm not even sure the question makes sense.

BTW, I hope this isn't coming across as argumentative. I was enjoying the thought experiment…

and I'm wildly high.

 

[Shu]

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